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New WSJ Article 7/10/10

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There's more to it than that. These people will be stuck with the prisoner's dilemma, where if they don't talk, as they don't entirely know who is saying what, they could end up sunk. With George, it's not just the clothing, he's been trying to get Pla A'dat going for a few years and it's on hold. As I noted before, he could cooperate now and take a hit saying "I did what I had to do, I'm sorry", and recover (think of Andy Pettit as a comparison). If he ends up perjuring himself and being prosecuted, the clothing line will vanish, and the dream of Pla d'Adat will vanquish. It may not happen, but that's the risk. What would you do?

Roadent said:
Nike is very good at doing the math, and taking sponsorship right to the edge - as long as you're not abusing animals, Nike will continue to pay you, no matter what you do...
As one who did contract work for them for years, I can attest to this statement being quite accurate.
 
Lepsallini said:
As a parallel, what was the tipping point in the tmobile/telekom domino confession?

This is what I am hoping happens as a result of this investigation. If a couple of riders or staff associated with the U.S. Postal team come forward to confirm the allegations made by Landis, it will put increasing pressure on other members of the team to come forward as well. If enough of them come forward it could eventually force Armstrong and Bruyneel to come clean much in the same way Riis was compelled to.
 
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Blakeslee said:
This is what I am hoping happens as a result of this investigation. If a couple of riders or staff associated with the U.S. Postal team come forward to confirm the allegations made by Landis, it will put increasing pressure on other members of the team to come forward as well. If enough of them come forward it could eventually force Armstrong and Bruyneel to come clean much in the same way Riis was compelled to.


There have been no shortage of people associated with the US Postal team who have already said much the same things; or have been busted as soon *** they left US Postal.

Start with them.
 
Jul 9, 2010
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velosopher54 said:
With enough witness accounts you don't need 'the smoking gun.'

As for dumpsters with syringes, maybe the blood bags from the 2009 TDF will do.:D

Good point. The fallout from the 09 Tour still aint over yet.

Concerning the smoking gun approach, how many eye witnesses are needed for a jury (presumably) to convict, or for a judge to OK an indictment?
 
Not mentioned in the article, the guy who is got to be seriously feeling the heat is Alan Lim. He has almost nowhere to turn. He can't exactly confess as his career would end up ruined, and it's not like he has information they want to go after anyone. He's the type of person it seems they are going after!

The only guess with Tyler appears to be "when". But we've known that for some time, haven't we? Really hoping he does the right thing and cooperates and finally tells the entire truth, whatever that may be.

blackcat said:
when did Kobe move over from Adidas to Nike?

I don't care!
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Lepsallini said:
haha that's a good one ... Horner the Mole. Would make for a nice book in retirement for him.

And for tax evasion? I think any hard evidence/documentation from Tailwind/Bruyneel has been shredded and - as noted earlier in this thread - the monetary amounts were probably small enough to explain away as part of any general ledger account.

Also, I don't think the conspiracy, purchase, or transportation of controlled substances charges will work either since to my knowledge, Flandis only spoke of blood doping practices in this latest "bombshell". In his earlier dud during the TdCalifornia he mentioned going to LA's house to pick up his EPO, but if he had any evidence of that whatsoever, I think it would've already come out. In that whole episode his whole strategy seemed to be to get lance to sue him so some lawyers could dig out the goods on LA during the discovery process.

probable cause in the US is satisfied by informant testimony, and even though hearsay, the testimony will be admissible in court because it comprises a statement against floyd's self-interest (since everything floyd has said exposes himself to legal jeopardy as well; moreover, for the same reason, it bolsters his credibility in the eyes of the law. jail house snitches have been winning cases for prosecutors for centuries).

you don't need a paper trail to prove tax fraud--the lack of paper to explain questionable entries shifts the burden to the defendant. the last thing you want to do is face the IRS without paper backing your story up.

any competent attorney is going to keep the meat of his case under wraps--just because you don't see evidence in the papers, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. and if floyd is working with the prosecution, then everything he leaks is vetted by them first, because you don't want careless slips of the tongue to derail a multi-million dollar investigation--they are letting out what they want lance to know, not everything that they do know.

all of the elements of conspiracy, purchase, and transportation are satisfied by floyd just stopping by to pick up packets (change the substance to crack and you'll see that too). i'm not 100% sure, but i would bet that human blood and blood products are heavily regulated in the US. at the very least, i know you have to be licensed to take blood and to perform transfusions, so at the very least it amounts to practicing medicine without a license. plus most states and countries require you to notify them if you are carrying human and animal tissue samples and parts across their borders.
 
Blakeslee said:
This is what I am hoping happens as a result of this investigation. If a couple of riders or staff associated with the U.S. Postal team come forward to confirm the allegations made by Landis, it will put increasing pressure on other members of the team to come forward as well. If enough of them come forward it could eventually force Armstrong and Bruyneel to come clean much in the same way Riis was compelled to.

A big difference is that Riis didn't make any "miracle" speeches, or chase riders from the sport that opposed doping, or slime everyone that dared call him out.

Lance will fall a lot harder than Riis, though of course his fanboys will remain loyal.
 
Jun 19, 2009
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spectacle said:
probable cause in the US is absolutely satisfied

all of the elements of conspiracy, purchase, and transportation are satisfied by floyd just stopping by to pick up packets (change the substance to crack and you'll see that too). i'm not 100% sure, but i would bet that human blood and blood products are heavily regulated in the US. at the very least, i know you have to be licensed to take blood and to perform transfusions, so at the very least it amounts to practicing medicine without a license. and most states and countries require you to notify them if you are carrying human and animal tissue samples and parts across their borders.

Sorry to edit somewhat but I think your own DNA, blood and the like is exactly that...yours. It's not a controlled substance unless you intend to sell it to someone else and not pay taxes. Removing, storing and transporting their own blood only would become illegal if they violated FDA or other regulations on where you took it. Look to the financial arrangements to trip up the cheaters; someone had to be paid to transport the stuff.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Maybe all the ex-Postal guys need to know is what happened to the athletes who didn't cooperate with Balco investigators. My guess is that Nowitzky can make 'em all sing a pretty tune before he's done. The Feds have already said they're not after the foot soldiers, only the bosses; given a gaurantee of immunity like that, I expect a pretty thorough cooperation by most of those to be interviewed. Wonder how Radioshack is liking their investment in the sport of cycling these days?
 
May 26, 2010
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2wheels said:
Maybe all the ex-Postal guys need to know is what happened to the athletes who didn't cooperate with Balco investigators. My guess is that Nowitzky can make 'em all sing a pretty tune before he's done. The Feds have already said they're not after the foot soldiers, only the bosses; given a gaurantee of immunity like that, I expect a pretty thorough cooperation by most of those to be interviewed. Wonder how Radioshack is liking their investment in the sport of cycling these days?

maybe somebody should tell them sooner rather than later...
 
Jul 13, 2009
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Oldman said:
Sorry to edit somewhat but I think your own DNA, blood and the like is exactly that...yours. It's not a controlled substance unless you intend to sell it to someone else and not pay taxes. Removing, storing and transporting their own blood only would become illegal if they violated FDA or other regulations on where you took it. Look to the financial arrangements to trip up the cheaters; someone had to be paid to transport the stuff.


i agree that the payments to the transporters (and to the suppliers and the medical staff) are key.

i admit that i am pretty ignorant about the laws surrounding biological products. so i'm just guessing based on my experience with similar issues in other areas. i do know that, in the US, one does not own their DNA or biological products for patent purposes at least (there was a case a few years back where a guy whose blood was somehow resistant to HIV, i forget how exactly, lost the case when he tried to challenge his doctors' having secured a patent on his blood without his permission).

and it's also pretty clear that, in the US, controlled substances are controlled whether you intend to distribute, or use them, or not. paying taxes on them is irrelevant. for instance, the beer in your fridge is a controlled substance and you will be held responsible if your beer finds its way into a minor's hands.

plus, even if you are authorized to possess a controlled substance, any activity outside of the scope of your authorization will violate the law. so if you have a prescription for vicodin, you will be breaking the law if you allow anyone else to have any, even just giving your spouse one pill for a really bad headache or something.

the blood in your body is probably not a controlled substance, but i have a feeling that as soon as it comes out of your body, there are all kinds of regulations that attach to it, as well as to the disposal of it--i know that disposal of medical and biological wastes is pretty heavily regulated here. for instance, it is illegal to dump blood down the drain or throw items tainted with human blood, like iv bags or even cotton swabs, into the everyday garbage (obviously people do it all the time, but it is still illegal).

transportation and possession of pharmaceuticals is usually not questioned in small quantities that are presumably for personal use, but if you are challenged and cannot prove you have a prescription, you will be in trouble. but since team lance had doctors on staff, getting the prescriptions is probably not the problem; the problem probably lies in the doctors writing the prescriptions knowing that they were medically unnecessary and would be used in prohibited way, as well as the black market distribution of the PEDS to other cyclists. take the example of floyd getting the EPO from lance at lance's house--right there lance is, if it is true, guilty of the illegal distribution of pharmaceuticals and controlled substances (unless he is a licensed pharmacist), even if he originally procured the PEDS "legally" via a prescription, which was filled by a pharmacist. in most states, that's enough to get you some jail time by itself.

one thing that really surprises me is that is seems pretty clear that lance and radio shack topped off on the rest day--given all that is at stake and happening right now, the hubris of that is really shocking. it really makes me wonder if lance isn't a sociopath or something.

finally, i don't really think getting people to "turn state's evidence" is going to be all that hard. lance is not a nice guy. he's hurt and ruined a lot of people over the years. and loyalty based on fear is a pretty fragile thing, as every headless monarch knows.
 
spectacle said:
finally, i don't really think getting people to "turn state's evidence" is going to be all that hard. lance is not a nice guy. he's hurt and ruined a lot of people over the years. loyalty based on fear is a pretty fragile thing, as every headless monarch knows.

"Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.

Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony."
-- Nicolo Machiavelli

Armstrong failed the "hated" part.
 
May 6, 2009
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I think the other reason why Hincapie will talk is, if he goes down, where will Lance be? If Lance could have half a chance to see George down the river to save himself, would he?
 

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