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New WSJ Article 7/10/10

buckwheat

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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704075604575357423818505614.html

Prison time for team leader(s)?;)

The U.S. criminal investigation, which is being led by the Food and Drug Administration, isn't aimed at prosecuting rank-and-file riders who used performance-enhancing drugs during their careers, according to people familiar with the investigation. Rather, it is designed to potentially bring charges against any team leaders and team directors who may have facilitated or encouraged doping by their riders.
 
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Can the FDA make any foreign riders who rode for USPS (and don't live in the States) give evidence or get information out of them to help with the investigation (ie subpoena)?
 

buckwheat

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craig1985 said:
Can the FDA make any foreign riders who rode for USPS (and don't live in the States) give evidence or get information out of them to help with the investigation (ie subpoena)?

It's an Interpol investigation now also.
 
This should have been part of the article last week. Lots more reporting and meat to the story than rehashing Floyd's accusations. The stuff with Georgie, Kohl and Tyler was particularly interesting.

Sounds like a lot of riders are talking to the feds and you presume most are telling the truth. Also the expectation that this would be a slow investigation seem to be refuted.
 
Wow thanks for the link. The WSJ sure has changed; when i was in Finance school it was required reading. A total drag then but now its a real live tabloid, so cool. I may never buy Star again; go Rupy, woot
 

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woodburn said:
This should have been part of the article last week. Lots more reporting and meat to the story than rehashing Floyd's accusations. The stuff with Georgie, Kohl and Tyler was particularly interesting.

Sounds like a lot of riders are talking to the feds and you presume most are telling the truth. Also the expectation that this would be a slow investigation seem to be refuted.

I think they wanted to give some background to people who don't know much as opposed to those who inhabit the forums.

If they just jumped right into the stuff from the second article casual fans would have been very confused.

I also think the WSJ has drawn a lot of the naysayers out, who said, 'is that all there is?' to the first article.

This article definitely isn't a rehash and they'll probably have at least one more as the Tour comes to a climax.

Will be very interesting. Especially for the people who think LA dodged a bullet with the first article.
 

buckwheat

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xmoonx said:
Wow thanks for the link. The WSJ sure has changed; when i was in Finance school it was required reading. A total drag then but now its a real live tabloid, so cool. I may never buy Star again; go Rupy, woot

They had good human interest stories when I subscribed back in the mid 80's going for an accounting degree.
 
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It just keeps getting better and better! Kohl is corroborating the practices! Hincapie, Hamilton, and other have been contacted to talk to the prosecutors, but most who are at the Tour will have to wait till its over. Too bad, they need to talk now! To make sure they get them before they finish the race, they won't deserve it if they do finish it.
 
buckwheat said:
I also think the WSJ has drawn a lot of the naysayers out, who said, 'is that all there is?' to the first article.

Which is why this paragraph jumped out at me:

The statement also said the Wall Street Journal article was "full of false accusations and more of the same old news from Floyd Landis, a person with zero credibility and an established pattern of recanting tomorrow what he swears to today."

Nothing like filling them with a little resolve...
 

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What does Kohl's personal use of EPO/CERA have to do with the rinky-dink blood transfusion program at Postal years ago that Floyd described?

The reporters at the WSJ need to do their homework.
Here is what Kohl said earlier:

"Kohl, however, denied that his decision was the result of pressure from his team or that it represented an organized doping program on the Gerolsteiner team. Kohl said he was especially sorry that his actions reflected poorly on the team and on team director Hans Michael Holzer.

“No, there was no systematic doping,” Kohl said. “Holzer knew of nothing. Holzer has always stood against doping. I think the worst part is that I disappointed him.”

The team, which was expected to fold at the end of the season, ceased operations following news of Kohl’s positive on Monday."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/10/road/kohl-admits-doping_84319


Also interesting that Hincapie, who many thought was already "singing" to the G-Men, has put off the meeting until after the Tour. Too much of a "distraction" to deal with it now...

And does anyone think the "double doctor supervised for safety" transfusion program at Postal can compare even a tiny bit to the organized blood labs of Puerto or the Freiburg(sp) Clinic.

Small potatoes...

edit...here is what Kohl says in the WSJ article,:
"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way," he added."

Quite different from his earlier accounts quoted above
 

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Polish said:
What does Kohl's personal use of EPO/CERA have to do with the rinky-dink blood transfusion program at Postal years ago that Floyd described?

The reporters at the WSJ need to do their homework.
Here is what Kohl said earlier:

"Kohl, however, denied that his decision was the result of pressure from his team or that it represented an organized doping program on the Gerolsteiner team. Kohl said he was especially sorry that his actions reflected poorly on the team and on team director Hans Michael Holzer.

“No, there was no systematic doping,” Kohl said. “Holzer knew of nothing. Holzer has always stood against doping. I think the worst part is that I disappointed him.”

The team, which was expected to fold at the end of the season, ceased operations following news of Kohl’s positive on Monday."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/10/road/kohl-admits-doping_84319


Also interesting that Hincapie, who many thought was already "singing" to the G-Men, has put off the meeting until after the Tour. Too much of a "distraction" to deal with it now...

And does anyone think the "double doctor supervised for safety" transfusion program at Postal can compare even a tiny bit to the organized blood labs of Puerto or the Freiburg(sp) Clinic.

Small potatoes...

edit...here is what Kohl says in the WSJ article,:
"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way," he added."

Quite different from his earlier accounts quoted above

Close .... but no cigar.

Bernard Kohl:
The report details Kohl's doping used while he rode for The Netherlands' Rabobank developmental team from 2000 to 2003. It said that he was involved with blood doping at least three times in 2005, when he was riding for T-Mobile Team, according to De Telegraaf.

Also Kohl has said in the past that he and his business manager Matschiner had bought a blood centrifuge and Matschiner had rented an apartment for Kohl to transfuse his blood.
 

Polish

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Dr. Maserati said:
Close .... but no cigar.

Bernard Kohl:


Also Kohl has said in the past that he and his business manager Matschiner had bought a blood centrifuge and Matschiner had rented an apartment for Kohl to transfuse his blood.

??

Did Floyd describe Team Postal using blood centrifuge's and/or EPO/CERA?

Kohl is originally quoted in in VELONEWS:

"Kohl denied that his decision was the result of pressure from his team or that it represented an organized doping program on the Gerolsteiner team."

Now Kohl is saying in WSJ#2:

"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way,"he added."


Different topic....do you think Big George will admit to doing blood transfusions because Lance made him do it? I doubt it - Big George will take responsibility for his own actions imo.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Polish said:
??

Did Floyd describe Team Postal using blood centrifuge's and/or EPO/CERA?

Kohl is originally quoted in in VELONEWS:

"Kohl denied that his decision was the result of pressure from his team or that it represented an organized doping program on the Gerolsteiner team."

Now Kohl is saying in WSJ#2:

"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way,"he added."


Different topic....do you think Big George will admit to doing blood transfusions because Lance made him do it? I doubt it - Big George will take responsibility for his own actions imo.

The Kohl piece I gave was to do with when he was with T-Mobile, not Gerolsteiner.

He might not have said in 2008 that Gerolsteiner had an organised team doping but Kohl did claim the Doctor there knew he was going to have a blood transfusion during the Tour.

Hincapie? Will he lie to a federal investiagator to protect Lance?
 
A

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Dr. Maserati said:
The Kohl piece I gave was to do with when he was with T-Mobile, not Gerolsteiner.

He might not have said in 2008 that Gerolsteiner had an organised team doping but Kohl did claim the Doctor there knew he was going to have a blood transfusion during the Tour.

Hincapie? Will he lie to a federal investiagator to protect Lance?

That probably depends on whether Armstrong has invested in Hincapie's business ventures.

Armstrong uses his chequebook to get loyalty.
 
With all the heat of late, this Tour might be the cleanest in years. This just makes the logistics of team doping more difficult for the Hog. It'll be each man for himself at RS. Not to mention that anybody at RS can be a potential rat. Look for a precipitous drop in performance from RS in the upcoming days. Bottle's performance will be on par with his post-USPS days at Gerosteiner & Rabobank and Popovych will ride like he did at Lotto.
 

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Dr. Maserati said:
The Kohl piece I gave was to do with when he was with T-Mobile, not Gerolsteiner.

He might not have said in 2008 that Gerolsteiner had an organised team doping but Kohl did claim the Doctor there knew he was going to have a blood transfusion during the Tour.

Hincapie? Will he lie to a federal investiagator to protect Lance?

Kohl never rode the TdF with T-Mobile.

Kohl sure seems to be lying in one of his two accounts.

1) EPO/CERA without team systematic doping at Gerolsteiner
2) Systematic NON-EPO/CERA Blood Doping exactly like Postal.

The WSJ seen to believe story #2.
I believe the WSJ is wrong.

And Big George can tell the truth - Lance did not force him to dope.
Big George can take responsibility for his own actions.
Do you think he will say lance made him do it?
 

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Polish said:
Kohl never rode the TdF with T-Mobile.

Kohl sure seems to be lying in one of his two accounts.

1) EPO/CERA without team systematic doping at Gerolsteiner
2) Systematic NON-EPO/CERA Blood Doping exactly like Postal.

The WSJ seen to believe story #2.
I believe the WSJ is wrong.

And Big George can tell the truth - Lance did not force him to dope.
Big George can take responsibility for his own actions.
Do you think he will say lance made him do it?

Where in Kohls statements in the WSJ does he say anything about "systematic" doping? He merely says that the practice of blood doping that he did is the same.

George doesn't have to say "that Lance forced him to dope" - but if he confirms doping within the team that places pressure on the 'team leaders' to explain their actions.
 
Polish said:
Kohl is originally quoted in in VELONEWS:

"Kohl denied that his decision was the result of pressure from his team or that it represented an organized doping program on the Gerolsteiner team."

Now Kohl is saying in WSJ#2:

"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way,"he added."

Let's try to make this easier for you:

The report details Kohl's doping used while he rode for The Netherlands' Rabobank developmental team from 2000 to 2003. It said that he was involved with blood doping at least three times in 2005, when he was riding for T-Mobile Team, according to De Telegraaf.
 

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MacRoadie said:
Let's try to make this easier for you:

Kohl did not ride the Tour with Rabobank.
Kohl did not ride the Tour with T-Mobile.
(Why are you guys even bringing those teams into this discussion?)

Kohl DID ride the Tour with Gerolsteiner while using EPO/CERA.

And the WSJ#2 article prints a Kohl quote equating his Tour de France EPO/CERA doping as EXACTLY the same as the rinky dink systematic blood doping at Postal that Floyd had detailed:

"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way," he added.

Does the WSJ check its sources?
Seems they are printing an obvious bogus account by Kohl.
 
Guys, please don't turn this into another episode of The Polish Troll Show.

tn_InternetTrolls.jpg
 
Polish said:
Kohl did not ride the Tour with Rabobank.
Kohl did not ride the Tour with T-Mobile.
(Why are you guys even bringing those teams into this discussion?)

Kohl DID ride the Tour with Gerolsteiner while using EPO/CERA.

And the WSJ#2 article prints a Kohl quote equating his Tour de France EPO/CERA doping as EXACTLY the same as the rinky dink systematic blood doping at Postal that Floyd had detailed:

"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way," he added.

Does the WSJ check its sources?
Seems they are printing an obvious bogus account by Kohl.

You can't really be this stupid.

There is no mention of the Tour by Kohl in the WSJ article. If there is, please point it out. He is speaking of his doping while at Rabobank. Not Gerolsteiner, not at T-Mobile, and not during the Tour. He makes no mention of his actions while riding for those teams.

The interview they reference isn't from 2008 (following the link YOU provided), and it didn't first appear in VeloNews.

In an interview in Vienna this week with Dow Jones Newswires, former pro cyclist Bernhard Kohl, who quit professional cycling after a positive drug test in 2008, said Mr. Landis's descriptions of doping rang true.
And it then goes on to directly quote Kohl from THAT interview.

"That was exactly the way I also did it," said Mr. Kohl, referring to Mr. Landis's allegation that he (Landis) and other U.S. Postal riders received blood transfusions during the tour (Landis' tour with Postal) in a hotel room. "The details of the blood bags and the checking for cameras and microphones, the cutting up of the bags and flushing them in the toilet, it all took place in exactly that way," he added.

A little reading comprehension would come in handy as Kohl is equating Landis' doping during the tour with his (Kohl's) doping at Rabobank. Kohl isn't talking about his own doping during any Tour with any team, simply that the PROCESS was the same.

Oh yeah, and that interview is from "this week", and it is sourced to Dow Jones Newswires which, in case you didn't know, IS the WSJ. So their source is themselves.

http://www.dowjones.com/

Musy be very difficult to wrap your brain (?) around the possibility that in 2008, contemporaneous with his doping pop, he discussed his doping at Gerolsteiner (where he was riding during that Tour) and T-Mobile (the team he was on two years earlier, and that was heavily rumored to have systematic doping). Then, in 2010 the WSJ interviews him regarding the Landis allegations and Kohl, now long removed from cycling, divulges information from earlier in his career that he either wasn't asked about, or didn't want to talk about earlier.

Idiot
 
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Armstrong will end up being the epitome of the [I]rank[/I] and file rider they don't prosecute...as a rider. They are targeting interstate and international traffic in controlled substances and whatever financial means (wire fraud, internet commerce, etc) that facilitated patterns of illegal activity. If Lance ends up being part of that management practice he better flip and testify: the last man standing will do time. Polish and other apologists must know it's time to look for a paying job somewhere else.
It won't happen as fast as some are predicting but it will be very expensive for those that aren't cooperative.
 
Oldman said:
Armstrong will end up being the epitome of the rank and file rider they don't prosecute...as a rider. They are targeting interstate and international traffic in controlled substances and whatever financial means (wire fraud, internet commerce, etc) that facilitated patterns of illegal activity. If Lance ends up being part of that management practice he better flip and testify: the last man standing will do time. Polish and other apologists must know it's time to look for a paying job somewhere else.
It won't happen as fast as some are predicting but it will be very expensive for those that aren't cooperative.

The article's mentioning of "team leaders" to me looks to include Armstrong. It's the domestiques who were following orders who can avoid doing the forced horizontal monkey dance with Big Bubba if they come clean.