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no block haus for the Giro?

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dimspace said:
the idea that the giro would change the entire course for one person, frankly is laughable...

although granted, cavendish does have a slightly better chance of getting through the three weeks now, but i dont think the course change has made too much difference...

Like I said, you don't know Italy. Believe me, in this case, yes they would...
Everyone is entitled to think what they want, but in Italy it works on conspiracy theories, what the Italians call dietrologia, which means somehting is allways "working behind the scene." In the land of the mafia and omerta, the papacy, i communisti, i fascisti, Berlusconi, the CIA, Ustica, il Nord, il Sud, doping etc., something is always "working behind the scene."

And if there isn't, then the Italians will improvise something to satisfy the dietrologisti. Nothing is as it appears...;)

PS And your refuting me point for point means nothing, since it's just what you believe...I think otherwise.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Alpe d'Huez said:
Just wondering why LaGazetta, VN and CN aren't reporting it. Maybe it's not big news to them? But it sure seems to be to us fans.
I really don't know yet about this stage, but it would hardly be surprising. Gazzetta has changed stages before, even in the middle of the race (didn't they cut a stage last year after racers complained about the long transfers?).
 
Apr 8, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
dimspace said:
the idea that the giro would change the entire course for one person, frankly is laughable...

So you have never heard of Francesco Moser then, routes were designed to suit Moser in the 80s and there was a very controversial race in 84 I think when Moser was up against Fignon. The Giro organisers rerouted a tough mountain stage due to bad weather conditions but some journalists claim there was no problems on the mountain in question.

If I remember correctly, didnt they organise a helicoptor to help Moser along in one race against Fignon. Cant remember the event.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Like I said, you don't know Italy. Believe me, in this case, yes they would...
Well...

PS And your refuting me point for point means nothing, since it's just what you believe...I think otherwise.
You were presented with facts.

I agree with you that Armstrong coming was probably a factor in designing this year's race - though I think it being the Centennial was much more of a factor in choosing such a different course: especially the original Cuneo - Pinerolo stage, the Venice, Milan, Bologna, Torino, Napoli, Rome,... city visits, and the North to South direction. As this latest idea was chosen, it became a necessity not to put a Mortirolo or Gavia or Marmolada: you simply can't have such a climb in the first week and hope for an interesting Giro afterwards, with or without Lance.

But from saying that they had Lance in mind when designing this year's Giro to saying that Cuneo - Pinerolo or Blockhaus were changed for him there is a big leap.

On a general note, I don't find this Giro to be as easy as people here seem to believe, and even less suited for time trialists. The first time trial is a beast and no one can say who will come on top that day. The Rome time trial is only 15 km - and the last time trials in the Giro often don't show the same difference between specialists and climbers as the first ones. Besides, flat stages are very few. And while you won't have extreme slopes, I don't think that those Apennines stages are more suited to "Tour de France" type contenders (long, mild slopes) than your typical Dolomites stages. On the contrary, I believe that Apennines with their neverending ups and downs and twists are more suited to typical climbers. I might be wrong though.

For sure I'm happy that there won't be a Plan de Corones or Zoncolan. Those climbs are spectacular, pure entertainment, but are they real cycling anymore?
 
Leopejo said:
For sure I'm happy that there won't be a Plan de Corones or Zoncolan. Those climbs are spectacular, pure entertainment, but are they real cycling anymore?

Bah!

If I remember correctly, didn't they organise a helicopter to help Moser along in one race against Fignon. Cant remember the event.

Yes, 1984 Giro. Though years later Moser said it was absurd and had almost zero effect, and that the TT times that day support his statement.

Strangely enough, and maybe Rumbroma can confirm this as being true dietrologia, in 1989 Moser was part of the planning committee, and helped style the course to assist Laurent Fignon as a form of repayment having been short changed in 1984.
 
Alpe d'Huez said:
Strangely enough, and maybe Rumbroma can confirm this as being true dietrologia, in 1989 Moser was part of the planning committee, and helped style the course to assist Laurent Fignon as a form of repayment having been short changed in 1984.

If I remember right a climb was cancelled that would have helped Hampsten, especially since it would have been cold and Fignon had knee issues in the cold. Fignon was similarly robbed in 1984 when a climb was cancelled because of snow, but journalists who went to the top found the climb rideable.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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It's official: Gazzetta's announcement.

The finish is at the hotel, 5.5 km before the original finish, at a 1631 m elevation instead of 2064. To keep the original stage length, they'll make the first part of the stage (flat) longer.
 
Thanks Leopejo for the link. Much appreciated.

This undoubtedly helps Leipheimer the most. I'd say Lance but he won't contend for GC. It probably helps Basso, and maybe Menchov as well.

The traditional Italian climbers (and a few from other countries) will be hurt the most from it, as I'm sure some of them were hoping to gain over a minute here on rivals.

Someone noted that the Zoncolon when it was isolated in 2007 didn't really split the field that much, and it is definitely steeper than the Blockhaus. This is true, but the Blockhaus was to be a bigger climb from bottom to top, starting just above sea level and going up over 2,000m in one push. Now, it's 1,400m, stopping just before it gets most difficult.
 
Leopejo said:
Well...


You were presented with facts.

Facts? Truth? What is the truth????

I appreciate your trying to convince me of your analysis. It's just that I live in Italy, and have for the past 11 years. And everybody I've talked to here in the cycling community, including a noted sports journalist who participates in the "after Giro" stage forum on tv, has no doubt that the course was altered to insure that Armstrong could compete even if the French sanctioned Armstrong.

Now, as everyone knows (or at least people who aren't incredibly naivè), that the facts are often considered such based upon one's relative position. It is a fact, you say, that the descent is too dangerous and that it is factual that this is why Zomengen changed the route and not, as we believe, because Lance Armstrong, when the decision was made, risked not being able to finish the Giro on the 4th day because he may have been prohibited from racing in France if the french authorities found his taking a shower had violated the anti-doping testing protocals. It is also a fact, you claim, that Armstrong "got along" with Simeoni at Milano-San Remo. How so? Because Armstrong said so? The same Armstrong who previously chased him down? Really, that was all propaganda. Armstrong needed to change his image, but not the true content of his character. And Simeoni? Do you know what he thinks? Well, I'll tell you. He wanted a public apology from Armstrong. That, of course, didn't come and Simeoni has nothing still but critical words for the American. It's just that nobody is listening to Simeoni, only Armstrong. Believe me the feeling between the two is a s cold as ever, its just that Lance had to "proove" he's not the bully he was at the Tour for the Italian public to think differently of him. Again, form the people I talk with here in Rome, everbody, literally everybody, believes whole heartedly that Simeoni is being excluded to suite Armstrong - and that this is scandelous (also because he's the national champ) and shows how the "facts" and "justice" are dictated by the strong at the expense of the weak. It also demonstrates how the Italians, in thinking about the intrigues surrounding their national grand tour, don’t subscribe to your (and I mean this with all due respect) rather simple and I have to say naivè interpretation of “the facts.”:cool:
 
Leopejo said:
It's official: Gazzetta's announcement.

The finish is at the hotel, 5.5 km before the original finish, at a 1631 m elevation instead of 2064. To keep the original stage length, they'll make the first part of the stage (flat) longer.

So, it's no worries to drop a major part of the climb, but it's crucial to keep it at what, 73kms or something?
Disasterous! Same climb as in 2006. Nowhere nearly hard enough to balance that ridiculous ITT.

It's going to take one clever rider to figure out where and when to try and derailed the railroad boys.....
 
Let's see. Discounting the first 1.5 km at 3.8% we have the remaining values:

15.2 km at 7%.

It is still hard but the stage being so short might not cause any havoc. It reminds me of the short stage in 1985 when Stephen Roche attacked and put Bernard Hinault against the ropes.
 
This is a bit of a Centanary turd, that the organisers have dropped upon us.
Stage 10, the Queen stage, is a ludicrously long 262kms, but has a mere 1934 metres of catagorised climbing.
I look at that ITT and think Levi is good for + 6-7 minutes on the likes of Simoni, Cunego and Di Luca.
Then I think where the heck could a climber possibly expect to gain that amount of time on this course?
Finally, we have another minute plus in Rome......
 
Mellow Velo said:
This is a bit of a Centanary turd, that the organisers have dropped upon us.
Stage 10, the Queen stage, is a ludicrously long 262kms, but has a mere 1934 metres of catagorised climbing.
I look at that ITT and think Levi is good for + 6-7 minutes on the likes of Simoni, Cunego and Di Luca.
Then I think where the heck could a climber possibly expect to gain that amount of time on this course?
Finally, we have another minute plus in Rome......

It is starting to remind me of the recent, crappy Vuelta courses that have short stages and climbing not hard enough to allow a true climber to shine. Remember that turd of a Vuelta course that Isidro Nozal almost won because the climbing stages would end right about the time he was starting to fade? How about that joke of a Vuelta that Menchov won without Heras there?

If Zomengen wants to make last minute changes then he should shorten the long ITT. Like cut the distance in half. :)
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Changing the course

I have mental images of Andy Hampsten climbing up through the snow and sleet on icey roads and treacherous descents....

I have mental images of Fausto Coppi, Gino Bartali and Fiorenzo Magni riding up thes mountains on roads that would scare the average mountain-biker.

Now I have a mental image of a smirking American who comes back to the sport and expects ( and gets) everything to be changed for his satisfaction.

Please wake me up in three weeks time because I've lost all interest in this debacle....Good Night.
 
COLIN LAING said:
I have mental images of Andy Hampsten climbing up through the snow and sleet on icey roads and treacherous descents....

I have mental images of Fausto Coppi, Gino Bartali and Fiorenzo Magni riding up thes mountains on roads that would scare the average mountain-biker.

I think for the centenary Giro they should have gone old school. In addition to gravel climbs they should have had a whole stage or two like the Monto Paschi Eroica. Oh, :), and made everyone ride steel.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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BroDeal said:
I think for the centenary Giro they should have gone old school. In addition to gravel climbs they should have had a whole stage or two like the Monto Paschi Eroica. Oh, :), and made everyone ride steel.

And single to three speed bikes, and no support other than what you can wear on your back. Now that would be cool.
 
BroDeal said:
It is starting to remind me of the recent, crappy Vuelta courses that have short stages and climbing not hard enough to allow a true climber to shine. Remember that turd of a Vuelta course that Isidro Nozal almost won because the climbing stages would end right about the time he was starting to fade? How about that joke of a Vuelta that Menchov won without Heras there?

If Zomengen wants to make last minute changes then he should shorten the long ITT. Like cut the distance in half. :)

Agreed. I would have too, liked to have seen the time trial distance cut down, perhaps not by half, but say from 60k to 40-45k.

Then, in the Alps, there needed to have been a monster classic climb or two such as the Stelvio and Gavia. Indeed it is quite bizzare that these climbs have not made it into the course, just as it is scandalously odd that the dolomites do not provide a more majestic backdrop. Then, the Mortirolo friggen had to be there!!! (Even just to make Lance have to suffer up it!:D)

I think Sicily, with its wonderful Greek ruins should have made a stage, just as something from picture poscard Tuscany around Siena.

The only thing Zomengen nailed, was the to have the last day in Roma...
 
Mar 10, 2009
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BroDeal said:
In addition to gravel climbs they should have had a whole stage or two like the Monto Paschi Eroica.
Someone was saying this is a Giro designed for... Fabian Cancellara. Add some Eroica stages and nobody we'll be able to challenge his victory. :p
 
Mar 10, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Then, in the Alps, there needed to have been a monster classic climb or two such as the Stelvio and Gavia. Indeed it is quite bizzare that these climbs have not made it into the course, just as it is scandalously odd that the dolomites do not provide a more majestic backdrop. Then, the Mortirolo friggen had to be there!!! (Even just to make Lance have to suffer up it!:D)

I think Sicily, with its wonderful Greek ruins should have made a stage, just as something from picture poscard Tuscany around Siena.

The only thing Zomengen nailed, was the to have the last day in Roma...
That's the problem. If you want to have a finish in Rome you need to put Alps first. They took a chance of changing the established pattern by putting Alps first and ending with the Apennines, let's see how it develops.

But no, you can't have a Mortirolo in the first week and then hope that people keep being interested in "lesser" climbs at the end.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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rhubroma said:
Facts? Truth? What is the truth????
Where to start..?

I appreciate your trying to convince me of your analysis. It's just that I live in Italy, and have for the past 11 years. And everybody I've talked to here in the cycling community, including a noted sports journalist who participates in the "after Giro" stage forum on tv, has no doubt that the course was altered to insure that Armstrong could compete even if the French sanctioned Armstrong.
You are confusing things (and believe me, I know Italy). It is possible, if not probable, that they thought about Lance when designing the course last year. But do you really think that they will get open to ridicule by changing stages a few days/weeks before the race just to please him? That's naive at best. Especially considering that Lance will go to race the Tour later this year.

Now, as everyone knows (or at least people who aren't incredibly naivè), that the facts are often considered such based upon one's relative position.
I have recently been reading about the evolution - creationism "controversy": so yes I know that people often deny facts or consider them opinions or interpret them differently ("creationist scientists have the same evidence as secular ones, they just interpret them differently").

It is a fact, you say, that the descent is too dangerous and that it is factual that this is why Zomengen changed the route and not, as we believe, because Lance Armstrong, when the decision was made, risked not being able to finish the Giro on the 4th day because he may have been prohibited from racing in France if the french authorities found his taking a shower had violated the anti-doping testing protocals.
The descent is not too dangerous: after all those pros will probably hit 80 km/h on it - but it is *forbidden* to bicycles, regardless of who rides them and in what competition. And all this was known months before the showergate. Zomegnan stubbornly hoped he could change French authorities' mind - but he was wrong.

It is also a fact, you claim, that Armstrong "got along" with Simeoni at Milano-San Remo. How so? Because Armstrong said so? The same Armstrong who previously chased him down? Really, that was all propaganda. Armstrong needed to change his image, but not the true content of his character.
With "got along" I meant that they both raced in the same race for seven hours in the same peloton (or less if Simeoni pulled off) - and nothing scandalous happened. Did either rider say anything bad about that race? If they "got along" in Sanremo, they can go along in the Giro. It's not that all 198 starters have to be friends. Last year there were quite tense moments. I don't think that a Lance - Simeoni feud would be worse than Riccò-vs-others last year.

And Simeoni? Do you know what he thinks? Well, I'll tell you. He wanted a public apology from Armstrong. That, of course, didn't come and Simeoni has nothing still but critical words for the American. It's just that nobody is listening to Simeoni, only Armstrong. Believe me the feeling between the two is a s cold as ever, its just that Lance had to "proove" he's not the bully he was at the Tour for the Italian public to think differently of him.
I'm not expecting them to hug each other, but believe me, it's not that Simeoni would throw Armstrong to the ground or that Armstrong can't stand to see the Italian Champion jersey.

Again, form the people I talk with here in Rome, everbody, literally everybody, believes whole heartedly that Simeoni is being excluded to suite Armstrong - and that this is scandelous (also because he's the national champ) and shows how the "facts" and "justice" are dictated by the strong at the expense of the weak.
Ask them also how Roma (or Lazio) have been mistreated by referees.

It also demonstrates how the Italians, in thinking about the intrigues surrounding their national grand tour, don’t subscribe to your (and I mean this with all due respect) rather simple and I have to say naivè interpretation of “the facts.”:cool:
Needless to say, you are quite wrong about me.
 
Leopejo said:
Where to start..?


You are confusing things (and believe me, I know Italy). It is possible, if not probable, that they thought about Lance when designing the course last year. But do you really think that they will get open to ridicule by changing stages a few days/weeks before the race just to please him? That's naive at best. Especially considering that Lance will go to race the Tour later this year.


I have recently been reading about the evolution - creationism "controversy": so yes I know that people often deny facts or consider them opinions or interpret them differently ("creationist scientists have the same evidence as secular ones, they just interpret them differently").


The descent is not too dangerous: after all those pros will probably hit 80 km/h on it - but it is *forbidden* to bicycles, regardless of who rides them and in what competition. And all this was known months before the showergate. Zomegnan stubbornly hoped he could change French authorities' mind - but he was wrong.


With "got along" I meant that they both raced in the same race for seven hours in the same peloton (or less if Simeoni pulled off) - and nothing scandalous happened. Did either rider say anything bad about that race? If they "got along" in Sanremo, they can go along in the Giro. It's not that all 198 starters have to be friends. Last year there were quite tense moments. I don't think that a Lance - Simeoni feud would be worse than Riccò-vs-others last year.


I'm not expecting them to hug each other, but believe me, it's not that Simeoni would throw Armstrong to the ground or that Armstrong can't stand to see the Italian Champion jersey.


Ask them also how Roma (or Lazio) have been mistreated by referees.


Needless to say, you are quite wrong about me.

Va bene...I give up. I respect your tencity and the fact that you have always been polite. And I hope you wont hold it against me (think me impolite) when I say: "There are those who are blind because rthey can't see and there are those who are blinde because they don't want to see..."
Peace
 
BroDeal said:
It is starting to remind me of the recent, crappy Vuelta courses that have short stages and climbing not hard enough to allow a true climber to shine. Remember that turd of a Vuelta course that Isidro Nozal almost won because the climbing stages would end right about the time he was starting to fade? How about that joke of a Vuelta that Menchov won without Heras there?

If Zomengen wants to make last minute changes then he should shorten the long ITT. Like cut the distance in half. :)

Certainly, when you consider that the other "tough" climb of the race, is featured in stage 5........which is just 125kms long.

As for the route. If they wanted to re-visit all the original Giro "hosts", why not start in Naples and arrive at the Dolomites a week later?

If they needed to come into Rome from the North, why not repeat stage 9 of the 2000 Giro, where Casagrande looked to have secured the pink, by putting all his rivals to the sword.
It may not be the Mortirolo, but it's a lot like that Aprica run in.
San Pellegrino in Alpe, 12.6 km at 8.75%
Abetone, 12 km at 5.1%