No doping controls??

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Mambo95,
Why do you keep coming to the clinic? You insult everybody that post in the clinic and yet you keep doing the same thing. If you hate it so much stop coming to the clinic.

Whether you like it or not doping is also part of cycling. If it less, the same, or more is going to be discussed anyway, just like any other topic.
 
pmcg76 said:
As I said before, it is very clear you absolutely nothing about my post history and calling people names aint gonna get it done either. Did you even try to refute any of my points? No, straight into "you are just another of the clinic idiots who accuses everyone of doping". I can safely say you know jack about my feelings on the subject of doping or what constitutes proof of doping.

I knew JTL as much as I know any continental rider, if there had been reason to notice him better, then I probably would have but up until Tour of Britain, most people would not have had a clue who he was either.
In the name of fairness, I have done as much checking up on the history of JTL as possible. His record in France before he got ill, his performances since his return to cycling etc, etc. All I was able to come up with is that, yes he is considered a good climber but then a good climber in UK at Premier Calendar level is not the same as a good climber in Europe. I found nothing to suggest that he could perform at the level he did in France recently or that he was some super talent way-layed by sickness. His performances at Tour of Britain need to be put into the context of the weakness of the field and the fact that he was targetting the KOM competition which not too many cared about. Clearly none of the ProTour teams were sufficently impressed to sign him up.

Finally, at no point have I said that JTL is definitely doping. I merely stated that I find sudden large jumps in performance as suspicious. I dont think thats a particularly ridiculous facet to have based on the history of this sport. You have a problem with people who cast dispersions on a rider in that way and if thats how you feel, then I have no problem with that. Thats your choice, its also your choice whether you want to post here or not so my advice would be not to post here. I know I dont get involved in things I have no interest in.

You are British so you feel it is your duty to protect the honour of British cyclists as do most of the people defending JTL. I can gurantee most people wouldnt be on here ranting and raving if it was some unknown rider from Ukraine, Portugal or Spain.

No, the point is that you are exaggerating. Your claims are not entirely false, but not entirely true either. You are conviently leaving or forgetting some things.

For instance, you are writing that he started racing again in 2007-2008. Not false, but not true either. It would be more accurate to say that he started to race from 2010, beacuse in 2008 he crashed, in 2009 his team went bankrupt and he still had to continue his work in shop. So, yes, he started racing from 2008, but in reality and as pr ohe started racing again in 2010.

You are comparing him with riders like Mark Cassidy. I suggest you to watch this little vid from Ras 2010 stage 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qMjiBJSQvs. At this point, JTL had been a pro for few months, but on this short hill is still easily putting 20 seconds on Cassidy (who btw won KOM of that year).

You are saying, that JTL rode several races in France during last couple of year, but never showed anything. Again, not entirely false, but why you are not talking about context? That he was ill during Circuit of the Ardennes and quit the race. Or that he crashed in Tour de Normandie. Or that in Mi Aout en Bretagne Kristain House got top3 in GC and afterwards whole team just defended it.

You are comparing him to Froome, absurd, when Froome podiumed Vuelta, he had been pro for five years and raced full calendar. Froome´ performance is much-much weirder. Tiernan-Locke never had similar opportunities to show himself.

You are saying that he did quite an international calnedar and mention Tour of Korea and South Africa, but forget (before next poster remind you) that he actually did pretty well there.

You are saying that you know that he was ill for several years, but again, very conviently remeber this little fact only after somebody else reminds you this.

You are saying „if you have spent the last three years riding on continental teams and have not chalked up any notable victories“ . Again, small exaggeration. Not three, nut two years. And if you look at past two years, I can see that almost everytime when race turned uphill, he performed. He won MTF during Ras. His first Premier win was uphill. He was KoM of ToB. He won most mountainous stage of Vuelta a León. If I look at Rapha Condor´s racing calendar and chances he got, he almost always performed very well. Of course, you can say that these results are nothing, but well, thats the level were Rapha was racing, JTL did not have chances like Haut Var before.



pmcg76 said:
My reason for doubting JTL is I cannot ever recall an oldish continental rider stepping up and dominating at a higher level like that. Seems nobody else can either. There is simply no precedent for it, therefore performances like this are unusual and very susprising.
Yes, his performance is surprising and unusual, but his whole career have been unusual. How many riders you can recall who have had a similar career: talented youngster, who gets ill and is effectively 5 years away from pro-cycling?

(And btw, dont try to twist or insinuate it to „you are brit, you want to defend him". I am not a brit. I have no reason to defend him.)

.
 
Von Mises said:
No, the point is that you are exaggerating. Your claims are not entirely false, but not entirely true either. You are conviently leaving or forgetting some things.

For instance, you are writing that he started racing again in 2007-2008. Not false, but not true either. It would be more accurate to say that he started to race from 2010, beacuse in 2008 he crashed, in 2009 his team went bankrupt and he still had to continue his work in shop. So, yes, he started racing from 2008, but in reality and as pr ohe started racing again in 2010.

You are comparing him with riders like Mark Cassidy. I suggest you to watch this little vid from Ras 2010 stage 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qMjiBJSQvs. At this point, JTL had been a pro for few months, but on this short hill is still easily putting 20 seconds on Cassidy (who btw won KOM of that year).

You are saying, that JTL rode several races in France during last couple of year, but never showed anything. Again, not entirely false, but why you are not talking about context? That he was ill during Circuit of the Ardennes and quit the race. Or that he crashed in Tour de Normandie. Or that in Mi Aout en Bretagne Kristain House got top3 in GC and afterwards whole team just defended it.

You are comparing him to Froome, absurd, when Froome podiumed Vuelta, he had been pro for five years and raced full calendar. Froome´ performance is much-much weirder. Tiernan-Locke never had similar opportunities to show himself.

You are saying that he did quite an international calnedar and mention Tour of Korea and South Africa, but forget (before next poster remind you) that he actually did pretty well there.

You are saying that you know that he was ill for several years, but again, very conviently remeber this little fact only after somebody else reminds you this.

You are saying „if you have spent the last three years riding on continental teams and have not chalked up any notable victories“ . Again, small exaggeration. Not three, nut two years. And if you look at past two years, I can see that almost everytime when race turned uphill, he performed. He won MTF during Ras. His first Premier win was uphill. He was KoM of ToB. He won most mountainous stage of Vuelta a León. If I look at Rapha Condor´s racing calendar and chances he got, he almost always performed very well. Of course, you can say that these results are nothing, but well, thats the level were Rapha was racing, JTL did not have chances like Haut Var before.





Yes, his performance is surprising and unusual, but his whole career have been unusual. How many riders you can recall who have had a similar career: talented youngster, who gets ill and is effectively 5 years away from pro-cycling?

(And btw, dont try to twist or insinuate it to „you are brit, you want to defend him". I am not a brit. I have no reason to defend him.)

.
Look, if you want context, I can give you context.

His RAS stage win was from a break. I can count how many guys that done well at the RAS who have gone on to compete at PT level.

I am not directly comparing him to Mark Cassidy, simply making the comparison if Cassidy suddenly sarted doing well in ProTour fields, it would be strange. Doesnt have to be in climbing, could be in sprinting or classics or anything.

His Premier league win was on a gradual drag as opposed to a hill, otherwise it wouldnt have been a sprint finish between the lead riders. Apparently, at the Lincoln GP which is much hillier, he was working for Zak Dempster.

His win at Leon owed much to the fact that Dan Craven was race leader and when the break went, he sat on as a dead weight, much like the SKY boys yesterday. He has said himself, he was the freshest at the finish because of this. At the start of that stage, he was 3rd in GC thanks to Rapha finishing 2nd in the TTT and Dan Craven was leader. Afterward he was 2nd overtaking Craven.

Finally he won the KOM at Tour of Britain, do you know who was 2nd in that competition? Russell Hampton!! Context!! I have seen enough TOBs going back to the Kelloggs days to know that the domestic riders come into the race in top shape with the aim of getting in breaks, doing well in the minor competitions and hoping for a good GC to get noticed.

Meanwhile most of the Continetal riders are winding down their seasons and dont give a crap. That climb to Caerphilly where he looked so good, have you seen the picture of Eisel getting of his bike and jokingly shouting encouragement at the SKY riders as they pass and they are having a right old laugh. Context my friend, context. This is probably why no PT picked him up, they understand the performances in the context of the race itself. Weak field, end of season race and super motivated local teams.

In an interview on Velonation, JTL say he is annoyed at people saying he came out of nowhere and then quotes his performances in France as an amateur as proof of his talent:eek: along with the KOM in Britain. Considering he was never at Pro level to start, how can he be away from that level for 5 years?

If you take the 2011 season as a whole, JTL was outperformed by Dempster, House and Craven on his own team. To go from being outperformed by these guys to then outperforming a ProTour field is a huge jump in a short space of time.

Based on my postings on this thread, it sounds like I am JTL arch enemy No 1 and that I have a vendetta against him, I dont and why would I. I found his performances very surprising and therefore suspicious which applies to all riders who make sudden jumps, that does not mean automatic guilt though. All I ended up doing is arguing with people who are trying to go to all lengths to tell me it wasnt very surprising.

If you find his performances surprising, then I dont see why it would be a shock to see somebody be then suspicious. This is Procycling afterall.

On that note, I am done on this subject. I am not posting in this thread again as I dont feel like continaully pulling the guy apart(Yes I know, too late). He is a decent rider who has had a few shock performances so we will see where he goes from here. Good luck to him in the future.
 
Apr 17, 2009
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Mambo95 said:
I'll summarise your posts simply for you.

1. I don't know the cyclist
2. I don't know the team
3. I only really understand races
4. I don't understand the progression of a cyclist who gets ill and then goes to Uni
4. As a clinic regular I think everything is about doping
5. Good performances before aren't relevant because I didn't see them.
5. Please, please Clinic regulars. Can you validate me? Let me join your club.

Look, you're an idiot trying to prove yourself to the Clinic faithful, but they're idiots too. The rest of cycling see this forum as utterly bizarre, even if some facts may be right.,
You really are a ***. Are you a *** in real life as well?
 
May 26, 2010
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For those criticising pmcg76, please try and remember this is the Clinic.

This is the place to discuss doping and for a 28 year old to come out of the blue and win against top teams and pros is, as some pros have put it, 'unbelievable'.

Don't take pmcg76's word for it take the pros word, 'unbelievable'.

That is what is being discussed.

His results don't add up and point to a career trajectory that says he was going to be winning these type of races so i believe this is the right place to discuss his performances.

To start name calling suggests you are losing the argument.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Look, if you want context, I can give you context.

His RAS stage win was from a break. I can count how many guys that done well at the RAS who have gone on to compete at PT level.

I am not directly comparing him to Mark Cassidy, simply making the comparison if Cassidy suddenly sarted doing well in ProTour fields, it would be strange. Doesnt have to be in climbing, could be in sprinting or classics or anything.

His Premier league win was on a gradual drag as opposed to a hill, otherwise it wouldnt have been a sprint finish between the lead riders. Apparently, at the Lincoln GP which is much hillier, he was working for Zak Dempster.

His win at Leon owed much to the fact that Dan Craven was race leader and when the break went, he sat on as a dead weight, much like the SKY boys yesterday. He has said himself, he was the freshest at the finish because of this. At the start of that stage, he was 3rd in GC thanks to Rapha finishing 2nd in the TTT and Dan Craven was leader. Afterward he was 2nd overtaking Craven.

Finally he won the KOM at Tour of Britain, do you know who was 2nd in that competition? Russell Hampton!! Context!! I have seen enough TOBs going back to the Kelloggs days to know that the domestic riders come into the race in top shape with the aim of getting in breaks, doing well in the minor competitions and hoping for a good GC to get noticed.

Meanwhile most of the Continetal riders are winding down their seasons and dont give a crap. That climb to Caerphilly where he looked so good, have you seen the picture of Eisel getting of his bike and jokingly shouting encouragement at the SKY riders as they pass and they are having a right old laugh. Context my friend, context. This is probably why no PT picked him up, they understand the performances in the context of the race itself. Weak field, end of season race and super motivated local teams.

In an interview on Velonation, JTL say he is annoyed at people saying he came out of nowhere and then quotes his performances in France as an amateur as proof of his talent:eek: along with the KOM in Britain. Considering he was never at Pro level to start, how can he be away from that level for 5 years?

If you take the 2011 season as a whole, JTL was outperformed by Dempster, House and Craven on his own team. To go from being outperformed by these guys to then outperforming a ProTour field is a huge jump in a short space of time.

Based on my postings on this thread, it sounds like I am JTL arch enemy No 1 and that I have a vendetta against him, I dont and why would I. I found his performances very surprising and therefore suspicious which applies to all riders who make sudden jumps, that does not mean automatic guilt though. All I ended up doing is arguing with people who are trying to go to all lengths to tell me it wasnt very surprising.

If you find his performances surprising, then I dont see why it would be a shock to see somebody be then suspicious. This is Procycling afterall.

On that note, I am done on this subject. I am not posting in this thread again as I dont feel like continaully pulling the guy apart(Yes I know, too late). He is a decent rider who has had a few shock performances so we will see where he goes from here. Good luck to him in the future.
Glad to see some sanity creep back in, thank you.
 
ultimobici said:
Glad to see some sanity creep back in, thank you.


I know I said I wouldnt post again but wanted to address this post, how has my sanity crept back in when my position has not changed one iota. Please dont misinterpet decent=good. Decent in my book means average continental pro. I still believe it was a huge jump and therefore suspicious and nothing put forward has changed my mind otherwise, indeeed the opposite has happened. As far as I am concerned, the only people who ever lost their sanity were those who were claiming this wasnt a huge jump in performance.

I just dont wish ill on the guy and he is innocent until proven guilty but for me personally, I will look on Med and Haut Var as suspicious. There are lots of perfromances in which the athlete hasnt tested positive but are looked upon as suspicious. Gilbert last year, Voeckler/Europcar etc, etc.
 
Benotti69 said:
For those criticising pmcg76, please try and remember this is the Clinic.
I do not criticize pmcg76 position per se. But it seems to me that he first sets the premise, and only after this starts to look for facts to support his premise, and it goes down the slippery slope of data mining: interprets findings in only one direction, conveniently forgets the details that do not fit his premise, makes inappropriate comparisons, adds small ad hominem attacks ("you are brit etc") and so on.

There are two ways to interpret Tiernan-Locke´s performance. One way is to say that he is nobody, who came from nowhere and has not achieved anything, to say that he is quite old (it gives the impression that he has long career and lot of chances to show himself). And of course, if you take this position, his performance during last month was very-very suprising and unbelievable.

Second way is to take him as talented amateur, whos career was interrupted for several years, then he came back, has been improving steadily, showed some good results and occasionaly, if stage turns uphill, have been even quite impressive. It still makes his last results surprising, but less surprising if at first glance seems.
 
Not too long ago in this thread, I was called an idiot for daring to cast suspicion on the sudden improvement of JTL. I was accused of being wilfully ignorant of his past performances even though I had researched them all and come to the conclusion that there was nothing significant of note to suggest a big talent.

Lo and behold, it appears a lot of journalists and pro cyclists were on the same thought process as myself. Obvioulsy they didnt know about his results in South Africa and Korea or the Ryedale GP either:rolleyes:.

"He’s already been labelled as ‘unbelievable’ by journalists and fellow pro riders, they scoff at his winning rides in the Tour of the Mediterranean and Tour du Haut Var. It’s the same nudge, nudge, wink, wink mentality and judgemental rumour mill that hangs over every professional who breaks through"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/jonathan-tiernan-locke-illness-doping-rumours-and-his-road-to-the-top

And the real kicker, the man himself JTL admits to having used the same criteria when judging riders himself!!!

"before admitting that if he’s guilty of anything it’s the same gossips stirring and rumour mongering at play with his own career.

In the past I’ve been guilty of that. Laughing at performances but I don’t know what’s fact or not but when it happens to you… it will make me look at other riders differently in the future and if I’ve learnt something it's that I wouldn’t be as critical as other people.”

I guess this makes JTL an idiot also, so overall us idiots in the Clinic are not in bad company considering that journalists, pro riders and JTL are also idiots. But hey, what do those guys know about the sport, right;) Maybe they all post here.

Considering the history of this sport in relation to doping, I simply do not get the mentality of those who get all defensive when others see performances that appear suspicious. Most of the time, its merely stating the bloody obvious but suspicion is not equal to automatic guilt either, that will be determined through time.

.
 
Good point in the article that as a Continental rider he's not a part of the biological passport so he can basically do as much blood doping as he'd like. Also, it confirms that there were indeed no tests at Tour of Med.
 
May 26, 2010
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roundabout said:
To be honest I didn't really get that article. As a feature it's pretty weak.
No! not Cycling News that bastion of cycling journalism! How dare you sir!










:D
 
Aug 13, 2009
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roundabout said:
Looks more like cliched journalism than anything deeper than that.
I thought it was a balanced article that showed both sides of the discussion.....which is what journalism should be right?
 
Race Radio said:
I thought it was a balanced article that showed both sides of the discussion.....which is what journalism should be right?
Agree, thought it was well balanced but there was some bending of truth as well, Benson fell into the 'Rapha raced mostly crits in the UK' which just aint true unless that was the case in 2010, it wasnt last season unless they count Premier calendar as crits.

Just looking at the Boardman thread got me thinking, Boardman was an amazing TT/track rider but back in his amateur days he could take on and beat all the English based pros in RRs also, he won Tour of Lancashire and various Star Trophy/Premier calendar races despite the pros trying to gang up on him. He was quite simply the best rider in the UK early 90s bus as he focused on track and TTs, he didnt do as much on the road scene but when he did, well.
 
Race Radio said:
I thought it was a balanced article that showed both sides of the discussion.....which is what journalism should be right?
It's possible that there is some misunderstanding. I thought that the use of the word fairytale in this news piece was while correct somewhat lazy.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tiernan-locke-leads-uci-europe-tour

As for the latest opus by Benson I expected perhaps somewhat unreasonably more insight about the years as an amateur in France. Or perhaps some stories from the people he raced with/against or the management of the teams he raced for up to 2012. Instead it's more of the same stuff that I've read over the last few weeks since TourMed.

Then there's 3 lines about the period between Plowman Craven going under and the 2011 ToB and the scoffing about people who dare to think that Locke's rides were impressive based on watching TV. I'd say when the "world centre of cycling" comes up with such lightweight features no journalist should complain or devote two paragraphs to people who in absence of background information dare to attempt to judge whether Locke is genuine.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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I just read that he was on the podium of 10 of his first 10 races as a teenager in France. That is seriously impressive.

JTL raced in the area to the South East of Paris. I have a good friend who raced there for decades, it is super hard. Cross winds, short power climbs, narrow roads. You have to be either really smart or strong enough to make up for any mistakes.
 
Race Radio said:
I just read that he was on the podium of 10 of his first 10 races as a teenager in France. That is seriously impressive.

JTL raced in the area to the South East of Paris. I have a good friend who raced there for decades, it is super hard. Cross winds, short power climbs, narrow roads. You have to be either really smart or strong enough to make up for any mistakes.
Yes I have also read that but cannot find any evidence of it, he rode for VC Aube who were a Div 2 amateur team in France at the time. I see very little mention of his name in the better French races, he seems to have done well at regional/local races the first year and then moved up to Div 1 team CC Etupes in 2005. However he never rode any of the French cup races or big amateurs Tour's in France.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Yes I have also read that but cannot find any evidence of it, he rode for VC Aube who were a Div 2 amateur team in France at the time. I see very little mention of his name in the better French races, he seems to have done well at regional/local races the first year and then moved up to Div 1 team CC Etupes in 2005. However he never rode any of the French cup races or big amateurs Tour's in France.
Ahh, that makes more sense. Not as impressive
 
Mar 17, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Yes I have also read that but cannot find any evidence of it, he rode for VC Aube who were a Div 2 amateur team in France at the time. I see very little mention of his name in the better French races, he seems to have done well at regional/local races the first year and then moved up to Div 1 team CC Etupes in 2005. However he never rode any of the French cup races or big amateurs Tour's in France.
So, let me get this straight.
He was good enough to hold down a place on VC Aube for a season
He showed enough promise to gain a place on the CC Etupes squad at barely 20.
He won a race (albeit from a break so it doesn't count in your book), and had several podium placings.
Only a few months into the season he had to stop having being struck down with EBS, so can't have been in a position to be selected for any of the big races.
And your conclusion is he was a run of the mill rider doomed to failure. Therefore his reemergence is the product of something other than hard work and finally being in a position to show his true worth. F*ck me, you must be a super pessimist!
 

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