No doping controls??

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Mar 17, 2009
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TeamSkyFans said:
whats wrong with wikipedia?

I updated his page two days ago with details of his background and illness. In fact, i updated it with information pretty much the same as you quoted, but prior to you saying not to rely on wikipedia.:D
Nowt wrong with it but I suspect many didn't read it rather skimmed it and seeing the lack of results in depth jumped to the conclusion that JTL has come from nowhere by "magic".

The thread has strong overtones of medieval methods of divining if a woman was a witch, IMO. But hey, if they want to elevate ToM or TdHV to HC in terms of importance, who am I to stop them?:rolleyes:
 
Libertine Seguros said:
continued to go on at the same level), and it's unfortunate that his harnessing of that talent has come at a time of two races with no testing (and even more unfortunate that that fact has been made public, casting doubt on his performances). If he's not, then he could easily be another Pecharromán or David Herrero, and fade into the ether as quickly as he
A lot of people treating no testing as a 'fact' based on an ambiguous tweet from Dan Martin after the first stage of two in a race. He could easily be talking purely about himself, trying to make a point about him normally being tested every week (ie most-tested athlete yadda yadda). As I said upstream you can certainly see the signage directing to the antidoping control on the video of the Haut Var finish. I don't think either that or the Martin tweet is any evidence either way in terms of whether JTL was tested.

And it's not like the testing has ever been unbeatable for a doping rider anyway! I would expect plenty more 'surprises' from GB riders between now and the Olympics that's for sure.
 
Jun 15, 2010
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VO2 Max said:
A lot of people treating no testing as a 'fact' based on an ambiguous tweet from Dan Martin after the first stage of two in a race. He could easily be talking purely about himself, trying to make a point about him normally being tested every week (ie most-tested athlete yadda yadda). As I said upstream you can certainly see the signage directing to the antidoping control on the video of the Haut Var finish. I don't think either that or the Martin tweet is any evidence either way in terms of whether JTL was tested.

And it's not like the testing has ever been unbeatable for a doping rider anyway! I would expect plenty more 'surprises' from GB riders between now and the Olympics that's for sure.
What has the Olympics got to do with JTL
 
May 26, 2010
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thehog said:
I like this post. I hear often "The team must control the race". Most don't remember that teams never used to control races. It was teams on EPO that controlled races and GTs.

I prefer the chaos and I have no idea why the UCI prefers teams using drugs as it doesn't always make racing for exciting.
UCI prefer drugs as it is a means to easier control the peloton re positives and corruption. Look at the Contador affair. I wonder how much McQuaid was haggling for before the Germans blew the story?
 
Dec 28, 2011
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A very natural talented rider would be good anywhere anytime. Sorry but that is just my opinion. Natural talent shows up from day one, otherwise you would have to dope from very early age throughout the year for many years which is very tough to do anyway.
From my limited experience of riding and racing at a low level as a relatively natural climber, I know that after a month or two slacking off training, fatties who I would usually leave minutes behind on a hill can ride along beside me.

I agree that natural talent will show up to an extent, but dedication and motivation can massively influence performance, and without them, you'll be crap, natural talent or not.

For me, I think his story checks out, but I'll wait and see.
 
May 26, 2010
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element said:
From my limited experience of riding and racing at a low level as a relatively natural climber, I know that after a month or two slacking off training, fatties who I would usually leave minutes behind on a hill can ride along beside me.

I agree that natural talent will show up to an extent, but dedication and motivation can massively influence performance, and without them, you'll be crap, natural talent or not.

For me, I think his story checks out, but I'll wait and see.
A rider in the pro peloton should not be slacking off and in Escarabajo's original post it was before EPO's arrival the 70s, 80s and very early 90s that talent always rose to the surface. Riders did not have the luxury of picking and choosing races, they raced a full season with exceptions for injury.

Sean Kelly won Paris Nice and finished his season with Giro Di Lombardia and raced to win the whole season between these 2 races. How many do that now? They cant for purposes of 'training'.
 
simo1733 said:
What has the Olympics got to do with JTL
Probably nothing. (Although if you're a talented British rider you have much more motivation to 'raise your game' this year then ever. How many more races does he miraculously dominate like these before he looks a reasonable choice to mark the Box Hill attacks in the summer?)

But my point was that if JTL looks good this month then wait and see what Froome, Wiggins, Cavendish, Thomas et al look like over the spring/summer when the BC Olympic programme really gets going.
 
May 26, 2010
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VO2 Max said:
Probably nothing. (Although if you're a talented British rider you have much more motivation to 'raise your game' this year then ever. How many more races does he miraculously dominate like these before he looks a reasonable choice to mark the Box Hill attacks in the summer?)

But my point was that if JTL looks good this month then wait and see what Froome, Wiggins, Cavendish, Thomas et al look like over the spring/summer when the BC Olympic programme really gets going.
If JTL has not been part of the program till now he is hardly likely to get chosen.
 
VO2 Max said:
A lot of people treating no testing as a 'fact' based on an ambiguous tweet from Dan Martin after the first stage of two in a race. He could easily be talking purely about himself, trying to make a point about him normally being tested every week (ie most-tested athlete yadda yadda).
I was going to say this yesterday but got diverted (work, its a ******...).

Martin was, what, top 10 on the world tour rankings last season? I imagine his performances have attracted the attentions of the testers so this interpretation isn't unlikely.
 
JTL does look impressive in that video from the TOB but still nowhere near as impressive as he has done the last few weeks. I think its obvious he was going for the KOM points in that video but it stills looks impressive the way the field split up.

I also find it funny that people who are putting forward the theory that riders arent in good shape two weeks before Paris-Nice would then think that riders are in good shape in mid-September for the TOB. Other than those going to the worlds which there werent too many at TOB, the only major events remaining after TOB are Paris-Tours and Lombardy, oh and Tour of Beijing;) We know how the pros love those late season races and how they are all in shape for them.

The TOB was the biggest event for JTL last year so of course it is the race he is most motivated and prepped for, or so I would hope.

For those that argue there isnt much difference in quality between TOB and the French races. TOB ran concurrently with the Vuelta and Canadian ProTour races. There were 6 PT and 4 PC teams present at TOB. HTC was basically Cavs sprint train, ditto for Garmin who were a rider short, Leopard had 4 riders only, Vacansoleil had 3 triallists, Rabobank rode for Boom, only SKY had what I would call a good team, it being their home race. In total there were about 30 PT level riders present and about 20 PC riders at TOB.

Tour du Haut Var, 9 PT teams, 7 PC teams, Tour of Med 8 PT teams, 7PC teams all mostly 8 man teams.
There were more PT level riders at these races than PT and PC riders combined at TOB so I would suggest that is a significant gap in quality.

Can anyone guess I am under the weather and out of work the last few days:(
 
Feb 6, 2012
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What it mainly shows me is that there are probably an awful lot more British riders who deserve a place on a Pro Conti team. In the last year we have seen the likes of Fenn, Blyth, Kennagh, Swift, Froome and Tiernan Locke show their pedigree at some decent races, unfortunately in order to get a Pro Conti ride as a Britich rider you seem to need to be at or around the standard that can win these races just to get a seat.

Perhaps if more middling Pro Conti class riders from the UK were given a chance to ride at this level then it wouldn't see such a shock when one of them starts to produce results like this.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
Very impressive.

<snipped for brevity>

But having read PMCG76 arguments he has me convinced towards the other side. A lot of things have changed since the introduction of EPO and blood doping so we tend to forget what it was like in the 80's and 70's. A very natural talented rider would be good anywhere anytime. Sorry but that is just my opinion. Natural talent shows up from day one, otherwise you would have to dope from very early age throughout the year for many years which is very tough to do anyway. That was the reason why post 80's riders started to set specific targets. Do not confuse Lemond’s approach of not tirening himself too early to peaking for a specific target. Young forumites don't know that because they almost don't remember what it was before the 90's. So they can be easily confused by the stories told by dopers.

Those other riders are showing their concerns for a reason. Probably they know better than us. Could be envy, but I doubt it.

For the time being we have nothing else but his amazing performance. I am leaning towards 60-40 (guilty-not guilty) on the probabilities side. Time will tell, just like in the Pecharromán case.

Just expressing my opinions.:)
thehog said:
I like this post. I hear often "The team must control the race". Most don't remember that teams never used to control races. It was teams on EPO that controlled races and GTs.

I prefer the chaos and I have no idea why the UCI prefers teams using drugs as it doesn't always make racing for exciting.
Two very interesting views.

I would agree with a lot of what both of you say - certainly the introduction of EPO changed how the peloton rode.
But a bigger difference for me between 80's style racing and today is how teams are much larger and have specific race programmes.

Back in the 80's many of the same riders did various events - the team leaders rode all the classics, now there is one part of a team that does the cobbles and another part the Hilly Classics.

And in these different parts each rider has a specific task.
Back in the 80's a race was piano for a couple of hours, then a break went and then there was a rush to the finish.
Now its racing flat out for the first hour - a non threatening break is allowed go but kept in check and then reeled in at will, because a team know its role before they leave their bus.

Which is why races like TdHV and perhaps ToM, Tob etc can offer up different scenario's as they are not under the stranglehold of the WT teams.
 
A

Anonymous

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ultimobici said:
Nowt wrong with it but I suspect many didn't read it rather skimmed it and seeing the lack of results in depth jumped to the conclusion that JTL has come from nowhere by "magic".

The thread has strong overtones of medieval methods of divining if a woman was a witch, IMO. But hey, if they want to elevate ToM or TdHV to HC in terms of importance, who am I to stop them?:rolleyes:
yeh, need to get hold of his earlier result and then have the usual arguments with the wikipedia staff over what is relevant and what isnt.

Many of the senior wiki editors are extremely anal about what appears on a riders palmares which why guys like Tiernan Locke appear to come from nowhere. Most of the editors insist on a strict rule, top 3 in minor classics and stage races, top 5 in monuments etc.

Where I view it based on the riders age and experience. For instance top 20 in roubaix for Geraint Thomas in 5 years time might not be relevant, but as a young rider having maybe 20th in roubaix, and then 11th and then podium is very relevant as it shows their progression. Similarly for domestiques. For say Phillipe Gilbert you would not record 12th in Fleche Wallone, but for a domestique with nothing to his name, a top ten finish would be worthy of adding to his palmares. If i put some of JTL's earlier results on this palmares I know a senior contributor will remove them as irrelevant and i will have another argument on my hands over the fact that it shows the riders progression.

For instance with Puccio. I set it as a seperate palmares for Amatuer results and woe betide any of the admin who try to remove them at a later date.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Biggut said:
What it mainly shows me is that there are probably an awful lot more British riders who deserve a place on a Pro Conti team. In the last year we have seen the likes of Fenn, Blyth, Kennagh, Swift, Froome and Tiernan Locke show their pedigree at some decent races, unfortunately in order to get a Pro Conti ride as a Britich rider you seem to need to be at or around the standard that can win these races just to get a seat.

Perhaps if more middling Pro Conti class riders from the UK were given a chance to ride at this level then it wouldn't see such a shock when one of them starts to produce results like this.
Endura are expected to be pro conti for 2013
 
TeamSkyFans said:
yeh, need to get hold of his earlier result and then have the usual arguments with the wikipedia staff over what is relevant and what isnt.

Many of the senior wiki editors are extremely anal about what appears on a riders palmares which why guys like Tiernan Locke appear to come from nowhere. Most of the editors insist on a strict rule, top 3 in minor classics and stage races, top 5 in monuments etc.

Where I view it based on the riders age and experience. For instance top 20 in roubaix for Geraint Thomas in 5 years time might not be relevant, but as a young rider having maybe 20th in roubaix, and then 11th and then podium is very relevant as it shows their progression. Similarly for domestiques. For say Phillipe Gilbert you would not record 12th in Fleche Wallone, but for a domestique with nothing to his name, a top ten finish would be worthy of adding to his palmares. If i put some of JTL's earlier results on this palmares I know a senior contributor will remove them as irrelevant and i will have another argument on my hands over the fact that it shows the riders progression.

For instance with Puccio. I set it as a seperate palmares for Amatuer results and woe betide any of the admin who try to remove them at a later date.
In regards to that wikipedia page, it says that he podiumed in his first ten races in France in 2005. Well other than his 3rd place in Les boucles Catalan and his win in GP Rocheville, I dont see a single Top 10 finish for the rest of Feb and the first half of March so where does these podium places come from.

http://www.velo101.com/amateurs/archives/mois:2/annee:2005

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7618

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7643


Did he not race for a month or something or were they at much samller races that dont feature on the French national calendar or perhaps he was racing in the UK when he scored these results. Reading the wikipedia page, it reads like they were all scored in France which would be most impressive.

I also noticed that JTL never actaully raced at the highest level in France as an amateur i.e Coupe de France National or in any of the most important national stage races e.g. Ronde de l'Isard. He went home sick before he got to do any of those races. It would seem that those who suggest he was destined for the pro level were a little premature considering the list of riders who also done well but never made it anywhere near a pro contract. Just look at the results, there is as many guys who didnt make it as there was that did, and even then most only lasted a few seasons with the pros before disappearing.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
In regards to that wikipedia page, it says that he podiumed in his first ten races in France in 2005. Well other than his 3rd place in Les boucles Catalan and his win in GP Rocheville, I dont see a single Top 10 finish for the rest of Feb and the first half of March so where does these podium places come from.

http://www.velo101.com/amateurs/archives/mois:2/annee:2005

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7618

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7643


Did he not race for a month or something or were they at much samller races that dont feature on the French national calendar or perhaps he was racing in the UK when he scored these results. Reading the wikipedia page, it reads like they were all scored in France which would be most impressive.

I also noticed that JTL never actaully raced at the highest level in France as an amateur i.e Coupe de France National or in any of the most important national stage races e.g. Ronde de l'Isard. He went home sick before he got to do any of those races. It would seem that those who suggest he was destined for the pro level were a little premature considering the list of riders who also done well but never made it anywhere near a pro contract. Just look at the results, there is as many guys who didnt make it as there was that did, and even then most only lasted a few seasons with the pros before disappearing.
Did you miss this?
Results - Top 10 Places
1. Jonathan Locke (GBR - CC Etupes Doubs) - 03h23'17"
2. Daniels Fleeman (GBR - PS Creusotine) - s.t.
3. Mathias Blumer (Swi - GS Hadimec-Rocky Mountain) - s.t.
4. Pawel Wachnik (Pol - CR4C Roanne) - s.t.
5. Fabien Copin (Fra - RO Saint Amandoise) - at 09"
6. Thomas Bernabeu (Fra - CR4C Roanne) - at 30"
7. Stefan Trafelet (Swi - GS Hadimec-Rocky Mountain) - at 30"
8. Julien El Farès (Fra - VC La Pomme Marseille) - at 30"
9. Manuel Michot (Fra - SuperSport 35-AC Noyal Chatillon) - at 30"
10. Bart Oegema (Hol - AVC Aixois) - at 30"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julien_El_Fares

The same guy JTL beat in 2005 went straight into a pro contract with Cofidis. JTL had to effectively start from scratch. We will never know whether he would have fared similarly as he had to stop racing.
 
ultimobici said:
Did you miss this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julien_El_Fares

The same guy JTL beat in 2005 went straight into a pro contract with Cofidis. JTL had to effectively start from scratch. We will never know whether he would have fared similarly as he had to stop racing.
Fantastic, he "beat" a 19 year old Julien El Fares. It's not like the 7 others who beat him have become particularly dominant forces in cycling...
 
Mar 17, 2009
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maltiv said:
Fantastic, he "beat" a 19 year old Julien El Fares. It's not like the 7 others who beat him have become particularly dominant forces in cycling...
Yes, at just 20 he beat a nearly 20 year old Julien El Fares. True he gasnt set the world alight since but he is still riding as a professional. That he was riding for VC La Pomme suggests he had potential.

My point is that it is not that outlandish that JTL wins the two races he has. Far far too much has been read into Dan Martin's tweet.
 
Sorry quoted wrong person...should have been ultimobici[/QUOTE]

Oh dear, I am afraid I have to ask, do you know anything about cycling?

Yes pro team pick riders based on one solitary result from February:rolleyes:

Let me explain the French amateur scene. Being quite a large country, there are obviously a lot of races and teams. A lot of the competition is regionalised in that most clubs compete mostly in their own general region. Sometimes there could be 12-14 good races over a weekend spread throughout the country.

There is one National competition called the Coupe de France in which the Top 20 clubs in France compete in, think of it as akin to the Premier Claendar in the UK or even the ProTour. It is made up of 7-8 one days races and is the most prestigious series on the French circuit. There is only a handful of stage races that most clubs would compete in, the most prestigious of which is the Ronde de l'Isard in May.

JTL did ride for the CC Etupes club based in Eastern France which is one of the Top 20 clubs in France. However, JTL went back to Britain with his sickness before he got to ride any of the major races against all the top amateurs in France. There are so many races France throughout the year, there is simply no way a guy could be up there in every single race, especially the lesser regional races.

For example Philip Deignan who was considered the top amateur in France in 2004 won the Ronde de l'Isard, done well at Tour of Chablais, had a few placing in French cup races and that was it. There was lots of guys with more victories but Deignan's victories were considered more important. Its like a reflection of the Pro scene. Quality over quantity.

I am not saying JTL wouldnt have done well in the big races or not got a pro contract. I am saying there is a long way to go from doing well in a handful of races to actually securing a pro contract. The article would have us believe JTL was on the fast track to a pro contract which is plausible but also mere speculation. France is littered with cyclists including British riders who had far better results in France than JTL and never made it to pro level. Yanto Barker, Russell Downing, Andrew Jackson are 3 guys who come to mind who never made it on Euro teams. Dan Fleeman finished 2nd in that race you quoted and look how long it took him to get to Cervelo and he lasted one season.

El Fares obviously got his contract because he performed in the more important races later in the season and is French which always helps to get on a French team. As Paul Kimmage once said, foreign riders had to perform better than the French to stand any chance of getting a contract which is why so many of them wanted it more.

As I said, the article quoted misrepresents things slightly, I still dont see the 10 podium places. As usual, editors want to put a nice spin on things especially when its a rider from their own country. Finally the North of France is considered way stronger than the South in terms of amateur racing. Until VC La Pomme started doing well, there was very little happening down south.
 
ultimobici said:
Yes, at just 20 he beat a nearly 20 year old Julien El Fares. True he gasnt set the world alight since but he is still riding as a professional. That he was riding for VC La Pomme suggests he had potential.

My point is that it is not that outlandish that JTL wins the two races he has. Far far too much has been read into Dan Martin's tweet.
It is outlandish.

Not "that must be doping, there is no other reasonable explanation" outlandish.

But "that was very unexpected" outlandish.

Tiernan-Locke being good is not surprising when you look deeper into his history. But the level of the step up that he's made, and how quickly he's gone from "decent prospect with a few good results in 2.2 races" to "easily class of the field in 2.1 races" is.

Again, not "definitely doping" surprising, but unless you work for Rapha, Endura or know Jonathan personally, to say that you predicted he would be comfortably the pick of the field in the early season stage races would be as surprising as his performances if not more.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Sorry quoted wrong person...should have been ultimobici

Oh dear, I am afraid I have to ask, do you know anything about cycling?

Yes pro team pick riders based on one solitary result from February:rolleyes:

Let me explain the French amateur scene. Being quite a large country, there are obviously a lot of races and teams. A lot of the competition is regionalised in that most clubs compete mostly in their own general region. Sometimes there could be 12-14 good races over a weekend spread throughout the country.

There is one National competition called the Coupe de France in which the Top 20 clubs in France compete in, think of it as akin to the Premier Claendar in the UK or even the ProTour. It is made up of 7-8 one days races and is the most prestigious series on the French circuit. There is only a handful of stage races that most clubs would compete in, the most prestigious of which is the Ronde de l'Isard in May.

JTL did ride for the CC Etupes club based in Eastern France which is one of the Top 20 clubs in France. However, JTL went back to Britain with his sickness before he got to ride any of the major races against all the top amateurs in France. There are so many races France throughout the year, there is simply no way a guy could be up there in every single race, especially the lesser regional races.

For example Philip Deignan who was considered the top amateur in France in 2004 won the Ronde de l'Isard, done well at Tour of Chablais, had a few placing in French cup races and that was it. There was lots of guys with more victories but Deignan's victories were considered more important. Its like a reflection of the Pro scene. Quality over quantity.

I am not saying JTL wouldnt have done well in the big races or not got a pro contract. I am saying there is a long way to go from doing well in a handful of races to actually securing a pro contract. The article would have us believe JTL was on the fast track to a pro contract which is plausible but also mere speculation. France is littered with cyclists including British riders who had far better results in France than JTL and never made it to pro level. Yanto Barker, Russell Downing, Andrew Jackson are 3 guys who come to mind who never made it on Euro teams. Dan Fleeman finished 2nd in that race you quoted and look how long it took him to get to Cervelo and he lasted one season.

El Fares obviously got his contract because he performed in the more important races later in the season and is French which always helps to get on a French team. As Paul Kimmage once said, foreign riders had to perform better than the French to stand any chance of getting a contract which is why so many of them wanted it more.

As I said, the article quoted misrepresents things slightly, I still dont see the 10 podium places. As usual, editors want to put a nice spin on things especially when its a rider from their own country. Finally the North of France is considered way stronger than the South in terms of amateur racing. Until VC La Pomme started doing well, there was very little happening down south.
I've gleaned a little in the last 30 years yes.

I was referring to the assertion that JTL's performances in ToM & TdHV were "extraterrestrial". I see no reason to believe that. My reason for contrasting him with Julien El Fares was that they are within 6 months of each other in age and were on similar paths until fate stepped in.

You seem to think that JTL must be doping to win in the way he has and dismiss his previous results as irrelevant because they're not big European races. Was the ToB just a sunday club run then?
 
ultimobici said:
Yes, at just 20 he beat a nearly 20 year old Julien El Fares. True he gasnt set the world alight since but he is still riding as a professional. That he was riding for VC La Pomme suggests he had potential.

My point is that it is not that outlandish that JTL wins the two races he has. Far far too much has been read into Dan Martin's tweet.
Normally people with that much natural talent would've shown it a lot earlier and to a much greater extent. JTL's pre-2010 results shows that he was a guy who perhaps could become a pro if he were lucky, but nothing more.

The speculation on JTL is a completely different subject than Dan Martin's tweet though; his tweet only added to the speculation. It's inevitable that speculation arises when someone has such a storming breakthrough at 27.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
theres a source reference on the wiki page at the end of the paragraph.

pmcg76 said:
In regards to that wikipedia page, it says that he podiumed in his first ten races in France in 2005. Well other than his 3rd place in Les boucles Catalan and his win in GP Rocheville, I dont see a single Top 10 finish for the rest of Feb and the first half of March so where does these podium places come from.

http://www.velo101.com/amateurs/archives/mois:2/annee:2005

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7618

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=7643


Did he not race for a month or something or were they at much samller races that dont feature on the French national calendar or perhaps he was racing in the UK when he scored these results. Reading the wikipedia page, it reads like they were all scored in France which would be most impressive.

I also noticed that JTL never actaully raced at the highest level in France as an amateur i.e Coupe de France National or in any of the most important national stage races e.g. Ronde de l'Isard. He went home sick before he got to do any of those races. It would seem that those who suggest he was destined for the pro level were a little premature considering the list of riders who also done well but never made it anywhere near a pro contract. Just look at the results, there is as many guys who didnt make it as there was that did, and even then most only lasted a few seasons with the pros before disappearing.
 

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