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Jul 27, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
I am aware that JTL had 3 years out of the sport and also aware that he went to France as a young rider but you know, there are literally bucketloads of guys who rode in France as amateurs and done well, Jamie Alberts, Yanto Barker, Kieran Page, Ben Johnson, ring any bells. Doesnt mean they were destined to be be big name riders or even pro. Every rider who has even made it to continetal level has had results at amateur level at some point.

Yes he missed 3 important years out of his career but has been back racing since 2007/8 and has rode at continental level for two years without putting up any results to suggest he is a super talent. There have been countless guys who were really good, even dominant at continental level but very few if any of them moved up a level and sarted dominating 2.1 races straight of the bat like JTL has. Its not that he doesnt have talent, its that this talent seems to appeared literally out of the blue.

Where was this talent when he rode at continental leve, dont try to give me this "the races didnt suit" stuff people have been spouting. If JTL had ridden like he has this month, he would have crushed everyone at continental level regardless of the race. So the question remains, why the sudden jump in performance in the space of months?

As a I keep asking, if someone can point me in the direction of a rider who moved up from continental level and immediately started crushing 2.1 standard fields(not sprinters), then I will accept it as a precedent and not view it as highly surprising or a little suspicious as I currently do. It not just that he won these races but that he dominated completely.
to the bolded....er at Rapha...The Ras, Bretonne in year one...then very good results in tour of south africa and tour of korea and ciclista de leon in year two....he performed exceptionally at the races he was at....he has hardly "appeared" out of the blue!
 
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"As a I keep asking, if someone can point me in the direction of a rider who moved up from continental level and immediately started crushing 2.1 standard fields(not sprinters), then I will accept it as a precedent and not view it as highly surprising or a little suspicious as I currently do. It not just that he won these races but that he dominated completely"

Tour of Corsica, when Stephen Roche beat Bernard Hinault in his first ever pro race, a month later he won Paris-Nice!
While I view all great achivements nowadays with a sceptical eye due to the previous 15years antics I would also like to think that there is maybe some hope for the future of pro cycling, the fact there was no testing would imho mean there is a lot to be learned by pro cycling yet.
 
straydog said:
to the bolded....er at Rapha...The Ras, Bretonne in year one...then very good results in tour of south africa and tour of korea and ciclista de leon in year two....he performed exceptionally at the races he was at....he has hardly "appeared" out of the blue!
The problem is, doing well against the fields of the Ras and Mi-Août Brétonne, then against the fields of SA and Korea, and winning climbing stages from the breakaway against Spanish U23s, are pretty solid results for a Continental level cyclist... but they're not enough to prepare us for him decimating fields with WorldTour teams in them. It seems that the last 6 months have seen him kick on the afterburners. Yes, the guy has always had talent, and he's reaching this level late because of taking 3 years out, and yes, he had some OK results before. But nothing that indicated this level was possible. Maybe his performances indicated he could be competitive at this level. But not squashing everybody.

Martin mentioning the lack of testing could be a thinly-veiled slur on Tiernan-Locke's sudden improvement (just because you were reasonably good before does not mean it's not a surprise when you're suddenly AMAZINGLY good), or it could just be unfortunate bad timing that Tiernan-Locke's recognised his potential at the ToB, trained like never before over the winter and his rise to fame has just coincided with two races with no testing.

The mention of Roche's Paris-Nice is all well and good (for a more recent example how about Peter Sagan?) - but Roche was 21 when he won Paris-Nice. At Tiernan-Locke's age, Roche was an established contender and partway through his Triple Crown year.

Tiernan-Locke still has some way to go until he's reaching Chris Froome at the Vuelta levels of hilarity, but if Luca Zanasca or Bernardo Colex start smashing the Italian péloton to all parts of the stadium, can we point at good results in races like the Tour de Beauce and Cinturo de l'Emporda as evidence that we shouldn't be suspicious?
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Libertine Seguros said:
The problem is, doing well against the fields of the Ras and Mi-Août Brétonne, then against the fields of SA and Korea, and winning climbing stages from the breakaway against Spanish U23s, are pretty solid results for a Continental level cyclist... but they're not enough to prepare us for him decimating fields with WorldTour teams in them. It seems that the last 6 months have seen him kick on the afterburners. Yes, the guy has always had talent, and he's reaching this level late because of taking 3 years out, and yes, he had some OK results before. But nothing that indicated this level was possible. Maybe his performances indicated he could be competitive at this level. But not squashing everybody.

Martin mentioning the lack of testing could be a thinly-veiled slur on Tiernan-Locke's sudden improvement (just because you were reasonably good before does not mean it's not a surprise when you're suddenly AMAZINGLY good), or it could just be unfortunate bad timing that Tiernan-Locke's recognised his potential at the ToB, trained like never before over the winter and his rise to fame has just coincided with two races with no testing.

The mention of Roche's Paris-Nice is all well and good (for a more recent example how about Peter Sagan?) - but Roche was 21 when he won Paris-Nice. At Tiernan-Locke's age, Roche was an established contender and partway through his Triple Crown year.

Tiernan-Locke still has some way to go until he's reaching Chris Froome at the Vuelta levels of hilarity, but if Luca Zanasca or Bernardo Colex start smashing the Italian péloton to all parts of the stadium, can we point at good results in races like the Tour de Beauce and Cinturo de l'Emporda as evidence that we shouldn't be suspicious?
Ok...what would you have wanted him to do? They were the only races he was doing....it wasn't like he had UCI 1's that he could just drop by and "prove" himself at. He was riding continental races....so frankly his continued improvement at Rapha over two seasons and then a so called "break out" 6th and KOM at TOB, before MED are all the "proof" you need. JTL has never been merely "reasonably" good. He has long been feted as one to watch on the domestic scene, to put it mildly. Honestly, this is an utterly pointless and frankly shameful speculative thread. Another example of what is making this site and it's users (and I include myself in that) such a joke.

Also using Roche as an example in a doping related thread really isn't helping your argument. Maybe you want to research the pioneers of EPO a bit more thoroughly. Frankly if JTL was producing results like Stephen I'd be suspicious, but he isn't, he is merely progressing in a way many have long suspected he is capable of.

Listen, if I am wrong, I'll be the first to pull the trigger but winning the Tour of the Med ffs is hardly definitive or indicative of anything.
 
straydog said:
Ok...what would you have wanted him to do? They were the only races he was doing....it wasn't like he had UCI 1's that he could just drop by and "prove" himself at. He was riding continental races....so frankly his continued improvement at Rapha over two seasons and then a so called "break out" 6th and KOM at TOB, before MED are all the "proof" you need. JTL has never been merely "reasonably" good. He has long been feted as one to watch on the domestic scene, to put it mildly. Honestly, this is an utterly pointless and frankly shameful speculative thread. Another example of what is making this site and it's users (and I include myself in that) such a joke.
Well, he could have actually won something against those weaker fields, for a start. This has been a big (and more importantly sudden) jump in performance from a guy pegged as a talent, but not seen as one of the most promising talents in the World. If he's long been fêted on the domestic scene, why has that never translated into results, considering that some of the fields he's faced in those races he put the promising results in are far weaker than the ones he's riding circles around now?

Also using Roche as an example in a doping related thread really isn't helping your argument. Maybe you want to research the pioneers of EPO a bit more thoroughly. Frankly if JTL was producing results like Stephen I'd be suspicious, but he isn't, he is merely progressing in a way many have long suspected he is capable of.
I didn't bring up Stephen. somebody else did, and I was pointing out why it's not a fair comparison. Roche was 21. The sport is littered with people breaking out at young ages - Sagan the most recent, but Cunego is another to bring up. Tiernan-Locke is 27. The sport is NOT littered with people who've done absolutely nothing outside of a few semi-pro and elite amateur races until 27 suddenly turning into unbeatable behemoths. But the reality is, he isn't doing anything more extreme than José Pecharromán did a few years ago, or Murilo Fischer that time he was in the top 10 for the year on CQ Ranking despite riding for a ProConti team... they had a month or two of sheer unstoppability but never replicated that in their careers. Hence why I also said we have some way to go before it gets to the Froome level of ludicrousness.

Listen, if I am wrong, I'll be the first to pull the trigger but winning the Tour of the Med ffs is hardly definitive or indicative of anything.
It's not that he won it, it's how. This is why people are more suspicious about the Haut-Var win than the Tour of the Med win (after all, with that weather and the shortened stages, it was a very different race to usual), because of how dominant it was. If he's the real deal, then Endura have done a great job of nurturing a talent that was only able to show in fits and bursts at Rapha (please do not equate winning from the break in the Vuelta a León and a few good showings in Korea and South Africa to beating up on World Tour riders as if he's moved to Endura and has just continued to go on at the same level), and it's unfortunate that his harnessing of that talent has come at a time of two races with no testing (and even more unfortunate that that fact has been made public, casting doubt on his performances). If he's not, then he could easily be another Pecharromán or David Herrero, and fade into the ether as quickly as he arrived; he could easily be another Murilo Fischer, and carve out a successful niche at a good level, but he could just as soon be another Francesco de Bonis.

Maybe we shouldn't be throwing him under the bus just yet, but I don't think we can explain away such sudden and sharp improvements with a wave of the hand and a rewriting of his time with Rapha. It's like the people saying that Froome being in the front group at the base of Alpe d'Huez suggested that he had the climbing chops for his Vuelta to not be implausible - so was Johan van Summeren.

Tiernan-Locke has been a major surprise this year. We can't say that it's definitely doping, but it's rewriting history to say that him being this strong isn't surprising.
 
Jul 3, 2009
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straydog said:
Ok...Also using Roche as an example in a doping related thread really isn't helping your argument. Maybe you want to research the pioneers of EPO a bit more thoroughly. Frankly if JTL was producing results like Stephen I'd be suspicious, but he isn't, he is merely progressing in a way many have long suspected he is capable of.

Stephen's win was in 1981 a long time before there was any question of him using EPO (1993) If you could explain why or how you think Stephen Roche had EPO in 1981 i'd only be to glad to listen. My point (which you seem to have totally missed) is that it is not impossible for a rider like JTL to make a big impact if he has the talent, but I think your arguement has convinced me he must be juiced if EPO is still in use!!!!
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Well, he could have actually won something against those weaker fields, for a start. This has been a big (and more importantly sudden) jump in performance from a guy pegged as a talent, but not seen as one of the most promising talents in the World. If he's long been fêted on the domestic scene, why has that never translated into results, considering that some of the fields he's faced in those races he put the promising results in are far weaker than the ones he's riding circles around now?

SNIP

Tiernan-Locke has been a major surprise this year. We can't say that it's definitely doping, but it's rewriting history to say that him being this strong isn't surprising.
Finally some realism and sense, agree with everything you say.

Good calls on Pecharroman and Fischer, but didnt Pecharroman test positive and try to blame it on some hair growth product. Cant remember the exact details but I remember hair growth products being involved. That was in 2003 and how many people would be willing to bet those performances being dope free.

Fischer suddenly hit this late season run of form and won a load of the one day races in Italy. Was very strange at the time and still is looking back. Again how many would bet they were clean performances in 2005.

All I ever said at the start was that these performances were very surprising and therefore suspicious becaue they represented such a huge jump from the level he had been racing at before.

Then people started jumpin in with all these excuses before looking at things logically. 6th place in the Tour of Britain does not prove some sort of amazing talent, that why I was trying to use Jelle Wallays as an example, he finished Top 10 in TOB but I dont think anyone would have believed it if he had performed like JTL the last few weeks (apart from Dr Maserati of course).

It is simply not normal for riders to improve that much in such a short timeframe. If JTL had performed like Romain Hardy(continental level rider with good results last year) who rode very well at both races, I could easily believe that and would have been very impressed as it would represent a more realistic and linear improvement but instead he rode like Gilbert did last year except he aint Gilbert.

It would be very nice if he were indeed clean but as I said I reserve my judgement on that and just because he might not perform again doesnt necessarily mean he was clean now either. Are Pro Conti teams part of the Biopassport programme?
 
pmcg76 said:
Finally some realism and sense, agree with everything you say.

Good calls on Pecharroman and Fischer, but didnt Pecharroman test positive and try to blame it on some hair growth product. Cant remember the exact details but I remember hair growth products being involved. That was in 2003 and how many people would be willing to bet those performances being dope free.
I don't remember the details from Pecharromán back in 2003, but I do know he never hit those heights again, faded and was just starting to put together some decent results in 2007 for Benfica over in Portugal before testing positive and disappearing forevermore.
It would be very nice if he were indeed clean but as I said I reserve my judgement on that and just because he might not perform again doesnt necessarily mean he was clean now either. Are Pro Conti teams part of the Biopassport programme?
Pro Conti teams are (they used to be optional, but you couldn't be wildcard if you weren't - think that ended last year, in 2010 only CCC Polsat and Scott-Marcondes César were Pro Conti but not Wildcard/Biopassport), but that's not relevant to Tiernan-Locke because Endura are only Continental level.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
I don't remember the details from Pecharromán back in 2003, but I do know he never hit those heights again, faded and was just starting to put together some decent results in 2007 for Benfica over in Portugal before testing positive and disappearing forevermore.

Pro Conti teams are (they used to be optional, but you couldn't be wildcard if you weren't - think that ended last year, in 2010 only CCC Polsat and Scott-Marcondes César were Pro Conti but not Wildcard/Biopassport), but that's not relevant to Tiernan-Locke because Endura are only Continental level.
Oh my mistake, I thought Endura had moved to ProConti and that was why JTL moved to them. All this time I was thinking he had moved up a level team wise when in fact he is still a continental pro with a slightly better race programme. Makes it even more unreal.

Oh and sorry, I didnt mean Pecharroman tested positive in 03(even though it reads like that) I just knew he eventually tested positive. Part of the much hoped for Quick Step GT contender with Mercado!! Lefevre loved those guys.
 

Dr. Maserati

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pmcg76 said:
Finally some realism and sense, agree with everything you say.

Good calls on Pecharroman and Fischer, but didnt Pecharroman test positive and try to blame it on some hair growth product. Cant remember the exact details but I remember hair growth products being involved. That was in 2003 and how many people would be willing to bet those performances being dope free.

Fischer suddenly hit this late season run of form and won a load of the one day races in Italy. Was very strange at the time and still is looking back. Again how many would bet they were clean performances in 2005.

All I ever said at the start was that these performances were very surprising and therefore suspicious becaue they represented such a huge jump from the level he had been racing at before.
Correct - but then when it was pointed out to you that it is not that big a jump, you continued with your skepticism.

pmcg76 said:
Then people started jumpin in with all these excuses before looking at things logically. 6th place in the Tour of Britain does not prove some sort of amazing talent, that why I was trying to use Jelle Wallays as an example, he finished Top 10 in TOB but I dont think anyone would have believed it if he had performed like JTL the last few weeks (apart from Dr Maserati of course).
Well done - making more things up that I have not or would not say.

I have no idea on Wallays - nor would I use your simplistic view on comparing riders on results.

pmcg76 said:
It is simply not normal for riders to improve that much in such a short timeframe. If JTL had performed like Romain Hardy(continental level rider with good results last year) who rode very well at both races, I could easily believe that and would have been very impressed as it would represent a more realistic and linear improvement but instead he rode like Gilbert did last year except he aint Gilbert.

It would be very nice if he were indeed clean but as I said I reserve my judgement on that and just because he might not perform again doesnt necessarily mean he was clean now either. Are Pro Conti teams part of the Biopassport programme?
You reserve judgement? Yet you did just write the blue, correct? Sorry but thats not reserving judgement.

Reserving judgement would be not basing your opinions on a couple of small events in February, ignoring JTLs previous results and time away and cherry picking other riders results.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
I can indeed tell you that.

However as you made some lame attempt that my opinion is based on nationality or knowing the guy (I knew very little until Med) is defending him then I don't expect you to believe it, nor do I care what you think.


Thats pretty much where I would put JTL performance.

This is the Tour de Haut Var, nothing more.
That was your response to this question from me, go back to page 7 or 8 if you dont want to believe.

"If it had been Jelle Wallays who had put out these recent perfromances, you cant tell me you wouldnt have found it unbelievable".

Or does it mean the opposite!!
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Correct - but then when it was pointed out to you that it is not that big a jump, you continued with your skepticism.


Well done - making more things up that I have not or would not say.

I have no idea on Wallays - nor would I use your simplistic view on comparing riders on results.


You reserve judgement? Yet you did just write the blue, correct? Sorry but thats not reserving judgement.

Reserving judgement would be not basing your opinions on a couple of small events in February, ignoring JTLs previous results and time away and cherry picking other riders results.
If people are going to put forward finishing sixth in TOB in 2011 is proof of talent, how is putting forward a rider who finished 8th in the same event any different. I want to know what is so believable about JTL performances that would be unblievable about Wallays doing the same thing except one is British and more likely to be known on an English speaking forum. They both have results in smaller races so how are they so different.

I am also still waiting for those continental riders who suddenly started destroying 2.1 fields.

Plus if I say I reserve judgement on the fact that he is clean, I think that means I dont totally believe the idea he is clean which is exactly why I have been saying he is suspicious. Its really not rocket science here.
 

Dr. Maserati

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pmcg76 said:
That was your response to this question from me, go back to page 7 or 8 if you dont want to believe.

"If it had been Jelle Wallays who had put out these recent perfromances, you cant tell me you wouldnt have found it unbelievable".

Or does it mean the opposite!!
I am not even sure what you are on about - but you asked if Wallays had done the same would I find it unbelievable?
I said no then and I would say no now.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
Correct - but then when it was pointed out to you that it is not that big a jump, you continued with your skepticism.


Well done - making more things up that I have not or would not say.

I have no idea on Wallays - nor would I use your simplistic view on comparing riders on results
.
Well here you claimed I made something up and I have shown how I didnt make it up as you already answered about the rider in question and now you claim you dont know what I am talking about.

Look Doc, everyone on here knows your ridiculous stupid games so I aint going to bother with you anymore. Until you can provide me with evidence of continetal rider suddenly turning into worldy beaters, all my points stand.

You may claim you wouldnt be surprised at any nobody rider suddenly coming good even though I know you dont actually believe that and this is just your typical style of trying to play devils advocate.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
If people are going to put forward finishing sixth in TOB in 2011 is proof of talent, how is putting forward a rider who finished 8th in the same event any different. I want to know what is so believable about JTL performances that would be unblievable about Wallays doing the same thing except one is British and more likely to be known on an English speaking forum. They both have results in smaller races so how are they so different.
It's not so much the fact that he came 6th that was proof of his talent but the way he rode on the way there.

Here's a video of stage 4. Watch the climb of Caerphilly Mountain, a short but steep climb about 4km from the finish. Start at about 2.40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3v5V3FbJdE
 

Dr. Maserati

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pmcg76 said:
If people are going to put forward finishing sixth in TOB in 2011 is proof of talent, how is putting forward a rider who finished 8th in the same event any different. I want to know what is so believable about JTL performances that would be unblievable about Wallays doing the same thing except one is British and more likely to be known on an English speaking forum. They both have results in smaller races so how are they so different.
If - big if - because anyone who has mentioned his talent has brought in many more events than just his ToB performance.
That you ignore that, is your problem.

pmcg76 said:
I am also still waiting for those continental riders who suddenly started destroying 2.1 fields.
What is the fixation that the race is 2.1? (Which ain't WT btw) Next you will be repeating that it had 'high caliber' winners.
I am pretty sure I said earlier there are probably none - how many continental teams get that opportunity?


pmcg76 said:
Plus if I say I reserve judgement on the fact that he is clean, I think that means I dont totally believe the idea he is clean which is exactly why I have been saying he is suspicious. Its really not rocket science here.
When you suggest someone is suspicious it is not 'reserving judgement' that they are clean.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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BigBoat said:
Yeah it is likely possible for a talented sprinter to win some flat pro road races totally clean or using minimal PEDs...what you suggest is true. However you have to be careful because there's that inverse relationship with neuromuscular power & aerobic capacity......

ie (if your best 5 second power is 1,200 then you've fatigued dramatically.) Also consider that you must normalize 375 watts in the final 10 minutes or so of the race. That combined with the long ride combined with the added accelerations of a race (solo riding at a steady power is much different).

Your 1,000 watt sprint falls anywhere from cat 5 to cat 4 range assuming a weight of 75 kg. Your FTP is very good compared to your sprint..... Dont know what it is per kilo. maybe as high as cat 1. So logically you've either fatigued your your a purely aerobic guy... Dont know what your best ever 5 second power is, I imagine you've hit atleast 1,150, maybe 1,200.
Fatigue resistance is indeed interesting, what i find about road sprinters is that they're a very "aerobic" bunch (compared to say a track sprinter who may indeed have trouble with the large workload), so they are always going to have great resistance. The power profile charts for 5s are of course "best effort" and i never target them but i can hit 1200 in training rides and can routinely hit 1000W for example after 315-330W for 1hr40minutes (ride was 290W NP), i hit 1000W for 5 seconds, then did another jump at 900W (also solo so lacking the motivation/race factor). I wouldn't say i was an aerobic guy, but more of a "road sprinter", I think if we knew each other you wouldn't call me an aerobic guy ;) My point for all this of course is that road sprinters have good fatigue resistance and therefore are able to still hit decent wattage after a decent workload.

 

Dr. Maserati

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pmcg76 said:
Well here you claimed I made something up and I have shown how I didnt make it up as you already answered about the rider in question and now you claim you dont know what I am talking about.
I still don't know what you are on about - you asked did I think another rider doing the same was "unbelievable", which I can certainly can say that.

ToB to TdHV is not that big a jump - so of course its not unbelievale, but then I would look at the individual and THEIR results/races and history to form my opinion.


pmcg76 said:
Look Doc, everyone on here knows your ridiculous stupid games so I aint going to bother with you anymore. Until you can provide me with evidence of continetal rider suddenly turning into worldy beaters, all my points stand.

You may claim you wouldnt be surprised at any nobody rider suddenly coming good even though I know you dont actually believe that and this is just your typical style of trying to play devils advocate.
I am not playing Devils Advocate.

IMO - I actually think it is pretty disgraceful that any rider who does well is immediately under suspicion. (I know it was not you who introduced this point and indeed it is worthy of discussion.)

You are entitled to your own view on this and your own criteria- but for me there is nothing particularly "unbelievable" about these performance.
If he had been tootling around the back of races in the UK for the last 7 years it would raise a flag, but this is a guy returning from illness and improving year on year. YMMV
 
Mar 22, 2011
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BigBoat said:
ie (if your best 5 second power is 1,200 then you've fatigued dramatically.) Also consider that you must normalize 375 watts in the final 10 minutes or so of the race. That combined with the long ride combined with the added accelerations of a race (solo riding at a steady power is much different).
And here is another power segment, this time it's 2 jumps both at ~930W (the first jump lasted 12 seconds) about 20s apart and then ~390W afterwards after 2hrs in the saddle (the ride continued for another 3 hours). So based on my personal experience, i can absolutely see a world class sprinter with an "aerobic" engine and still hitting 1500W multiple times, Thor and Boonen strike me as such, and even Cancellara who is an aerobic guy can hit 1450W (from 2010 Flanders).

 
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Irish2009 said:
Stephen's win was in 1981 a long time before there was any question of him using EPO (1993) If you could explain why or how you think Stephen Roche had EPO in 1981 i'd only be to glad to listen. My point (which you seem to have totally missed) is that it is not impossible for a rider like JTL to make a big impact if he has the talent, but I think your arguement has convinced me he must be juiced if EPO is still in use!!!!
ok....dude I don't know quite what you think you are saying, but it isn't coming across, and frankly conversations like this have been done to death, so I for one am utterly bored to the back teeth of them.

I didn't for one second suggest Stephen was using EPO in 81. Please show me where I did. Actually don't bother, I'll be asleep by then anyway. But if you think he was clean in 87, then you might want to ask yourself why he threatened to sue kimmage after Rough ride was published, despite not being accused of anything personally.

So I managed to convince you that JTL is juiced because you didn't think EPO is still in use.

Peace
 
A

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ultimobici said:
I'm stunned by the apparent ignorance in this thread. Have any of you slating JTL's performance actually read up on him other than wikipedia? He had 3 years out recovering from Epstein-Barr virus at a time when most riders are forging their way into the professional ranks.

In case you're too lazy to click on a link, I'll post it for you.



We're not talking about a rider who has come from zero, rather a rider who has had an enforced pause in his career.

As for the actual race, the Saur rider seemed to be doing the lion's share of driving the break, whereas JTL was only occasionally at the front of affairs chasing. Couple that with the former mis-timing the final attack while the latter got his timing right on a climb that is very similar to many all over the south of Devon & Cornwall and it is little wonder JTL won.
whats wrong with wikipedia?

I updated his page two days ago with details of his background and illness. In fact, i updated it with information pretty much the same as you quoted, but prior to you saying not to rely on wikipedia.:D
 
Mar 22, 2011
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Mambo95 said:
It's not so much the fact that he came 6th that was proof of his talent but the way he rode on the way there.

Here's a video of stage 4. Watch the climb of Caerphilly Mountain, a short but steep climb about 4km from the finish. Start at about 2.40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3v5V3FbJdE
Wow thanks for the video, you have to be super strong to ride that aggressively, there is way too much emphasis on placings.
 
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pmcg76 said:
If people are going to put forward finishing sixth in TOB in 2011 is proof of talent, how is putting forward a rider who finished 8th in the same event any different. I want to know what is so believable about JTL performances that would be unblievable about Wallays doing the same thing except one is British and more likely to be known on an English speaking forum. They both have results in smaller races so how are they so different.

I am also still waiting for those continental riders who suddenly started destroying 2.1 fields.

Plus if I say I reserve judgement on the fact that he is clean, I think that means I dont totally believe the idea he is clean which is exactly why I have been saying he is suspicious. Its really not rocket science here.
Nathan Haas :D

http://www.cyclingnews.com/races/jayco-herald-sun-tour
 
Benotti69 said:
Very impressive.

I recall the Pecharromán case. Very simple. He needs to keep this up or else. Remember that we might never see a positive from a lot of the dopers, so we are left to a lot of speculation. This is the Clinic and there is a reason why this forum was created.

Having said that the moderators should really split this thread. Today was the first time that I read this thread out of curiosity. The main discussion is different to the title and this guy probably deserves his own thread to set a precedent.

Having read most of the thread I liked the discussion and arguments from both sides. At the beginning I was leaning towards the innocence of the rider based on the following:

- Good form,
- Early in the season and most pros are out of shape
- Most pros don't target this race (it is also related to doping BTW)
- Very important race for small teams
- Was talented but has been sick last couple of years.

But having read PMCG76 arguments he has me convinced towards the other side. A lot of things have changed since the introduction of EPO and blood doping so we tend to forget what it was like in the 80's and 70's. A very natural talented rider would be good anywhere anytime. Sorry but that is just my opinion. Natural talent shows up from day one, otherwise you would have to dope from very early age throughout the year for many years which is very tough to do anyway. That was the reason why post 80's riders started to set specific targets. Do not confuse Lemond’s approach of not tirening himself too early to peaking for a specific target. Young forumites don't know that because they almost don't remember what it was before the 90's. So they can be easily confused by the stories told by dopers.

Those other riders are showing their concerns for a reason. Probably they know better than us. Could be envy, but I doubt it.

For the time being we have nothing else but his amazing performance. I am leaning towards 60-40 (guilty-not guilty) on the probabilities side. Time will tell, just like in the Pecharromán case.

Just expressing my opinions.:)
 
Escarabajo said:
Very impressive.

I recall the Pecharramon case. Very simple. He needs to keep this up or else. Remember that we might never see a positive from a lot of the dopers, so we are left to a lot of speculation. This is the Clinic and there is a reason why this forum was created.

Having said that the moderators should really split this thread. Today was the first time that I read this thread out of curiosity. The main discussion is different to the title and this guy probably deserves his own thread to set a precedent.

Having read most of the thread I liked the discussion and arguments from both sides. At the beginning I was leaning towards the innocence of the rider based on the following:

- Good form,
- Early in the season and most pros are out of shape
- Most pros don't target this race (it is also related to doping BTW)
- Very important race for small teams
- Was talented but has been sick last couple of years.

But having read PMCG76 arguments he has me convinced towards the other side. A lot of things have changed since the introduction of EPO and blood doping so we tend to forget what it was like in the 80's and 70's. A very natural talented rider would be good anywhere anytime. Sorry but that is just my opinion. Natural talent shows up from day one, otherwise you would have to dope from very early age throughout the year for many years which is very tough to do anyway. That was the reason why post 80's riders started to set specific targets. Do not confuse Lemond’s approach of not tirening himself too early to peaking for a specific target. Young forumites don't know that because they almost don't remember what it was before the 90's. So they can be easily confused by the stories told by dopers.

Those other riders are showing their concerns for a reason. Probably they know better than us. Could be envy, but I doubt it.

For the time being we have nothing else but his amazing performance. I am leaning towards 60-40 (guilty-not guilty) on the probabilities side. Time will tell, just like in the Pecharramon case.

Just expressing my opinions.:)
I like this post. I hear often "The team must control the race". Most don't remember that teams never used to control races. It was teams on EPO that controlled races and GTs.

I prefer the chaos and I have no idea why the UCI prefers teams using drugs as it doesn't always make racing for exciting.
 

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