No doping controls??

[Dr. Maserati]

Well I would agree that El Fares in not exactly on a par with previous winners, he is a rider that is well ahead of JTL in terms of results and standing, Top 30 in Tour de France aint nothing to sniff at but thats kinda the point really. JTL wasnt anywhere near there level beforehand but now all of a sudden he can make them look second rate.

Right, so El Fares isn't "high caliber" - but because he finished in the top 30 of the Tour means .... well what exactly?
Haut Var was decided over a 1 km climb - El Fares went to early and was still only caught in the last 200m.

Again if you think JTL putting 1 second in to El Fares makes him look "second rate" then I can see why you have a negative view of him.

 

[roundabout]

El Fares actually paced it best of the break. It was Simon who went too early but he is a good rider for this sort of finish (even if he may not be a household name on this forum) so he was probably being overconfident.

 

[roundabout]

Regarding El Fares, he can be pretty good on uphill finishes.

6th on the Montelupone wall and 6th to Camerino (3rd out of the bunch) in Tirreno-Adriatico in 2009.

 

[function]

Yes, that was wrong of me.

However, under certain assumptions it would seem that in this shape JTL is capable of contending for a high place in the Fleche.

That's why I am curious about the actual data to see how far off I am.

Me too! I think everyone now would love to see him against some top flight competition

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

This thread seems to have focused on Jon Tiernan-Locke. I reserve judgement on the Brit. I'm not as worried about someone doping to win the Tour of the Med. I'm more concerned about teams who have Grand Tour ambitions who might now be in training phases and microdosing epo and putting away blood. Aren't these exactly the sort of races you're most likely to get the blood passport evidence to catch a big time doper?

Yes, the thread has been badly derailed, right from a few posts in.

There's no reason to believe that Martin was making a point about Tiernan-Locke. What he did actually say is much more interesting than that sort of speculation. There were apparently no doping controls at two relatively well known early-season races. That's depressing news. (Albeit, the fact that a top level pro is complaining about it is in itself encouraging).

 

[Von Mises]

I already showed that Rapha had quite an international race calendar last year, maybe not as good as An Post but they rode many of the same races for example. Bagdonas is known because he won the Ras, Ronde de l'Oise and a stage at the TOB. Rapha were at the Ras but JTL was racing in France I think, they were at l'Oise with JTL and they were at TOB.

McNally won the MI-Aout Bretonne I think and I dont remember what Fenn achieved other than a big Worlds but I know JTL done 4-5 races in France but didnt really show in any of them. A lot of those races included a lot of the French teams that were at the races in the south of France recently.

Rapha did not have a race calendar even close to the An Post. The point is, JTL was less known than others because had had raced less.

I do not know particularly about these races in France where JTL participated, but generally smaller French races are very chaotic and less controlled by strong teams, usually (I would even say that almost always) break wins and if you want to show something, you have to be in this winning break.

 

[Von Mises]

I would imagine the news of a guy with said 'ability', would reach the ears of various teams in Europe.

It is not so obvious, if you are coming from "non-cycling" country, you may have ability, but it can be still very hard to find a decent team. I know myself couple of guys with ablity, who had had similar experience finding a team.

 

[Benotti69]

It is not so obvious, if you are coming from "non-cycling" country, you may have ability, but it can be still very hard to find a decent team. I know myself couple of guys with ability, who had had similar experience finding a team.

I think TeamSky put the Brits on the map. Wigans, Millar and Cav are not new to the sport. So it can no longer be considered a non -cycling country. It might not be up there with the Italians, Spanish, French and Belgians but it is not a back water in regards to cycling.

But maybe it does not have the connections that the Europeans have and it is harder to get on the 'radar', but he has ridden in Europe last season.

We will see how he does the rest of the year.

 

[BigBoat]

Also regarding your examples, i even have personal training files where i've hit 1000W after averaging 200W (250W NP) for 4.5hrs, so 230W with 1500W (even several times) in the last few kilometres doesn't seem impossible for a world class sprinter especially with motivation (sadly my ride was solo and the sprint was against myself).

Well it depends on what type of rider you are & how good your aerobic fatigue resistance has gotten which in large part is genetic. I must say, an IF score of .74 for 5 hours is pretty tough ride.... nice effort. You must have been satisfied after finishing that.

Yeah it is likely possible for a talented sprinter to win some flat pro road races totally clean or using minimal PEDs...what you suggest is true. However you have to be careful because there's that inverse relationship with neuromuscular power & aerobic capacity......

ie (if your best 5 second power is 1,200 then you've fatigued dramatically.) Also consider that you must normalize 375 watts in the final 10 minutes or so of the race. That combined with the long ride combined with the added accelerations of a race (solo riding at a steady power is much different).

Your 1,000 watt sprint falls anywhere from cat 5 to cat 4 range assuming a weight of 75 kg. Your FTP is very good compared to your sprint..... Dont know what it is per kilo. maybe as high as cat 1. So logically you've either fatigued your your a purely aerobic guy... Dont know what your best ever 5 second power is, I imagine you've hit atleast 1,150, maybe 1,200.

 

[pmcg76]

Rapha did not have a race calendar even close to the An Post. The point is, JTL was less known than others because had had raced less.

I do not know particularly about these races in France where JTL participated, but generally smaller French races are very chaotic and less controlled by strong teams, usually (I would even say that almost always) break wins and if you want to show something, you have to be in this winning break.

How many excuses can you come up with for this guy not showing up much before the last 2 weeks, races in UK dont suit him , races in France dont suit him, blah, blah, blah.

If a guy has the talent to win Med and Haut Var easily including winning a flat stage, then he sure as hell should have been showing up a lot more racing at a lower level instead of arriving fron nowhere and beating a field with 9 Pro Tour teams and 4-5 top Pro continental team. Yeah not a single one of those riders were in shape, only JTL was in shape for these races.

 

[SaftyCyclist]

From 2008...

Tiernan-Locke looked to be on the fast track to a pro contract. He came flying out of the blocks the following year with CC Etupes — one of the biggest clubs in France and one with a direct line into Tour de France teams — when he won the amateur Tour du Haut Var at the end of February.
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/routes/west/345919/south-devon-with-jonathan-tiernan-locke.html

 

[pmcg76]

Right, so El Fares isn't "high caliber" - but because he finished in the top 30 of the Tour means .... well what exactly?
Haut Var was decided over a 1 km climb - El Fares went to early and was still only caught in the last 200m.

Again if you think JTL putting 1 second in to El Fares makes him look "second rate" then I can see why you have a negative view of him.

Well I would suggest that someone who can finish top 30 in the Tour has a little more talent than a guy with one noteworthy result of 5th in the Tour of Britain.

Obvioulsy you didnt watch the race or watch closely, El Fares was in the break with Simon, Clarke and they started the final climb with a 10-20 second lead over the group behind. In a group featuring Hivert, Ferdigo, Kessiakoff, Le Mevel. JTL was the only rider to catch and the pass the guys in front and he was blocked by Simon on the climb itself.

As someone else pointed out, El Fares has proven history on these sort of finishes as does Simon who has finished 2nd and 4th in th GP Wallonia which is famous for the finish climb up to the citadel in Namur. So it was JTL who forced the split in the peloton reducing it to about 20 riders and then gave decent puncheurs a headstart on the final climb and he still beat them. I think that is the very definition of easy. If it was Gilbert we would be laughing at how easy he made it look.

 

[maltiv]

Right, so El Fares isn't "high caliber" - but because he finished in the top 30 of the Tour means .... well what exactly?
Haut Var was decided over a 1 km climb - El Fares went to early and was still only caught in the last 200m.

Again if you think JTL putting 1 second in to El Fares makes him look "second rate" then I can see why you have a negative view of him.

Once again, El Fares came from the breakaway, him being second has nothing to do with it. That's like saying Cancellara's 2nd place in P-R wasn't impressive because all he did was to beat Maarten Tjallingi...

JTL started the climb about 20 seconds behind El Fares. The next guy from the peloton came in approx 15 seconds after JTL.

 

[simo1733]

Once again, El Fares came from the breakaway, him being second has nothing to do with it. That's like saying Cancellara's 2nd place in P-R wasn't impressive because all he did was to beat Maarten Tjallingi...

JTL started the climb about 20 seconds behind El Fares. The next guy from the peloton came in approx 15 seconds after JTL.

JTL was super impressive on the final climb.It was even Gilbert like.Everyone knew exactly what he would, do but nobody could do anything about it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Well I would suggest that someone who can finish top 30 in the Tour has a little more talent than a guy with one noteworthy result of 5th in the Tour of Britain.

El Fares finishing inside top 30 is indeed a very good result - but it is no indication of relative "talent" when the other rider has not even ridden that race.

Obvioulsy you didnt watch the race or watch closely, El Fares was in the break with Simon, Clarke and they started the final climb with a 10-20 second lead over the group behind. In a group featuring Hivert, Ferdigo, Kessiakoff, Le Mevel. JTL was the only rider to catch and the pass the guys in front and he was blocked by Simon on the climb itself.

I had watched it just once - so got the riders mixed up. Also I had read the comments on JTLs performance before watching it and was watching out for him to produce these unbelievable performance.

As for El Fares, the guy was in the break which means he would not be as fresh for the final push.

As someone else pointed out, El Fares has proven history on these sort of finishes as does Simon who has finished 2nd and 4th in th GP Wallonia which is famous for the finish climb up to the citadel in Namur. So it was JTL who forced the split in the peloton reducing it to about 20 riders and then gave decent puncheurs a headstart on the final climb and he still beat them. I think that is the very definition of easy. If it was Gilbert we would be laughing at how easy he made it look.

Your earlier point was that Haut Var winners were of a "high caliber", now you are googling up results for some riders who have placed well in various stages of races.

 

[straydog]

I think TeamSky put the Brits on the map. Wigans, Millar and Cav are not new to the sport. So it can no longer be considered a non -cycling country. It might not be up there with the Italians, Spanish, French and Belgians but it is not a back water in regards to cycling.

But maybe it does not have the connections that the Europeans have and it is harder to get on the 'radar', but he has ridden in Europe last season.

We will see how he does the rest of the year.

I think Team Sky are in the process of trying to put the Brits on the map....I mean previously Tom Simpson, Robert Millar, Barry Hoban etc had had an effect too....but to suggest that Britain can no longer be considered a a non cycling country is ridiculous....The only option young british riders have of having any access to a decent european pro contract...is the six places on the development squad...a couple of bursaries from Braveheart...and that's it. The Premier Calendar races have less organisation and less following than your average local weekly Cat 4 race in France. This is the reason, that we have world champions and olympic gold medallists riding for smallish domestic teams....

Sky are definitely improving a young riders opportunities if he comes from England, but there is no cycling culture as such at all in England, hence the reason all juniors and espoirs have to go to the continent to develop, to stand any real chance.

Also to Von mises...I agree with most of what you say...but I'd take issue with your statement that most french races are won by the break away....Belgian Kermesses yes...but not french road races...a small point, but relevant none the less.

Also...just generally...JTL is an animal...an absolute beast on a bike and always has been...and I find the idea of his name being bandied around in the clinic quite simply ridiculous.

Peace

 

[Ferminal]

As for El Fares, the guy was in the break which means he would not be as fresh for the final push.

It was hardly a long break, they got off the front for several kms, JTL was also doing turns on the front of the chase to keep them in check.

 

[pmcg76]

El Fares finishing inside top 30 is indeed a very good result - but it is no indication of relative "talent" when the other rider has not even ridden that race.


I had watched it just once - so got the riders mixed up. Also I had read the comments on JTLs performance before watching it and was watching out for him to produce these unbelievable performance.

As for El Fares, the guy was in the break which means he would not be as fresh for the final push.




Your earlier point was that Haut Var winners were of a "high caliber", now you are googling up results for some riders who have placed well in various stages of races.

Maybe Julien Simon is not a big name rider but look back through the results of Haut Var and tell me how many winners were not quality pros so my point stands or perhaps you regard Voeckler, Le Mevel, Rebellin, Pozzatto, Jalabert as poor riders.

I remember El Fares convincingly winning a stage in the Tirreno-Adriacto and Tour of Wallonia but I aint going to know his every result as he seems to have stagnated. I am sure you can rhyme of every pros results.

Look at the reports and results from both races, most of the riders were at the same level except JTL. The only person who thinks he didnt dominate theses races is you.

As I said, find me a rider like JTL who after 2 years as a continetal pro suddenly jumped to dominating 2.1 races for fun and I can give your argument some credence. Otherwise I can strike it down as your usual guff.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Maybe Julien Simon is not a big name rider but look back through the results of Haut Var and tell me how many winners were not quality pros so my point stands or perhaps you regard Voeckler, Le Mevel, Rebellin, Pozzatto, Jalabert as poor riders.

So you are back to this argument of comparing the race to previous editions?

I remember El Fares convincingly winning a stage in the Tirreno-Adriacto and Tour of Wallonia but I aint going to know his every result as he seems to have stagnated. I am sure you can rhyme of every pros results.

Well if you did remember El fares convincingly winning at TA & Wallonia then you appear to have forgotten he won both from breakaways.

Look at the reports and results from both races, most of the riders were at the same level except JTL. The only person who thinks he didnt dominate theses races is you.

Yes - other riders were at their February level - a rider in form this early will look better.

As I said, find me a rider like JTL who after 2 years as a continetal pro suddenly jumped to dominating 2.1 races for fun and I can give your argument some credence. Otherwise I can strike it down as your usual guff.

Easier to start ad-hominens and dismiss it as guff when you ignore JTLs history, make El Fares seem like the second coming, view previous TdHVs 'high caliber' winners as something to do with this event and ignore the ToM was culled because of weather.

 

[roundabout]

Doubt anyone is making El Fares seem like the second coming.

He is a capable rider made to look slow on Sunday though.

Also, why would only Locke be in form?

And why being 17 seconds better than the rest on a relatively straightforward climb in TourMed doesn't matter? IIRC the man himself said that it would have been the same result on Mont Faron.

 

[ultimobici]

I'm stunned by the apparent ignorance in this thread. Have any of you slating JTL's performance actually read up on him other than wikipedia? He had 3 years out recovering from Epstein-Barr virus at a time when most riders are forging their way into the professional ranks.

In case you're too lazy to click on a link, I'll post it for you.

When Locke began road racing in 2003 at age 18, after a couple of seasons as a mountain biker, he moved from fourth to first category status in just a few months. Seeing the teenager’s talent, Lewis found him a spot on the French amateur team, U.V. Aube, in 2004. Locke did so well there that, only 18 months into his road career, he was selected for the British under-23 team for that year’s road worlds in Verona, Italy. In 2005, he moved to a nationally ranked French team, CC Étupes, and established his credentials immediately by finishing on the podium in all of his first 10 races, including a win at the GP de Rocheville, near Cannes, on the Côte d’Azur.

We're not talking about a rider who has come from zero, rather a rider who has had an enforced pause in his career.

As for the actual race, the Saur rider seemed to be doing the lion's share of driving the break, whereas JTL was only occasionally at the front of affairs chasing. Couple that with the former mis-timing the final attack while the latter got his timing right on a climb that is very similar to many all over the south of Devon & Cornwall and it is little wonder JTL won.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Doubt anyone is making El Fares seem like the second coming.

He is a capable rider made to look slow on Sunday though.

Well El Fares results from over the years have been brought in to show he would have been a worthy name to add to the 'high caliber' previous winners.

And I am not dissing the guys results or capability - he is obviously a decent rider.

Also, why would only Locke be in form?

I wouldn't say he is the only one in form - however he has targeted these races to peak where for most others their priorities are weeks if not months away.

And why being 17 seconds better than the rest on a relatively straightforward climb in TourMed doesn't matter? IIRC the man himself said that it would have been the same result on Mont Faron.

Who said it doesn't matter?

This is part of the problem on this thread - if you don't subscribe to a view then its assumed you think it was no big deal or even questionable.
It is - but when all the information about the rider, the races and the opposition then it is not as extreme as it may first appears.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm stunned by the apparent ignorance in this thread. Have any of you slating JTL's performance actually read up on him other than wikipedia? He had 3 years out recovering from Epstein-Barr virus at a time when most riders are forging their way into the professional ranks.

In case you're too lazy to click on a link, I'll post it for you.



We're not talking about a rider who has come from zero, rather a rider who has had an enforced pause in his career.

As for the actual race, the Saur rider seemed to be doing the lion's share of driving the break, whereas JTL was only occasionally at the front of affairs chasing. Couple that with the former mis-timing the final attack while the latter got his timing right on a climb that is very similar to many all over the south of Devon & Cornwall and it is little wonder JTL won.

This is what I saw as well. Yes, he broke open group on the penultimate climb but then sat on the back until the final climb. Smart move. It also seemed that he was looking around a lot on the 2nd to last climb. It seemed that he wanted to split the field but still have a solid group to chase. This is smart because if it was just 4-5 guys instead of 15 it would have been a different race.

 

[ultimobici]

This is what I saw as well. Yes, he broke open group on the penultimate climb but then sat on the back until the final climb. Smart move. It also seemed that he was looking around a lot on the 2nd to last climb. It seemed that he wanted to split the field but still have a solid group to chase. This is smart because if it was just 4-5 guys instead of 15 it would have been a different race.

The other thing that it reminded me of is this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52eJPjpQklc

Andy Hampsten handing out a kicking to the Kings of Cycling, Moser, Hinault Lejaretta & Montoya in his first race as a pro. Enjoy!

 

[pmcg76]

I'm stunned by the apparent ignorance in this thread. Have any of you slating JTL's performance actually read up on him other than wikipedia? He had 3 years out recovering from Epstein-Barr virus at a time when most riders are forging their way into the professional ranks.

In case you're too lazy to click on a link, I'll post it for you.



We're not talking about a rider who has come from zero, rather a rider who has had an enforced pause in his career.

As for the actual race, the Saur rider seemed to be doing the lion's share of driving the break, whereas JTL was only occasionally at the front of affairs chasing. Couple that with the former mis-timing the final attack while the latter got his timing right on a climb that is very similar to many all over the south of Devon & Cornwall and it is little wonder JTL won.

I am aware that JTL had 3 years out of the sport and also aware that he went to France as a young rider but you know, there are literally bucketloads of guys who rode in France as amateurs and done well, Jamie Alberts, Yanto Barker, Kieran Page, Ben Johnson, ring any bells. Doesnt mean they were destined to be be big name riders or even pro. Every rider who has even made it to continetal level has had results at amateur level at some point.

Yes he missed 3 important years out of his career but has been back racing since 2007/8 and has rode at continental level for two years without putting up any results to suggest he is a super talent. There have been countless guys who were really good, even dominant at continental level but very few if any of them moved up a level and sarted dominating 2.1 races straight of the bat like JTL has. Its not that he doesnt have talent, its that this talent seems to appeared literally out of the blue.

Where was this talent when he rode at continental leve, dont try to give me this "the races didnt suit" stuff people have been spouting. If JTL had ridden like he has this month, he would have crushed everyone at continental level regardless of the race. So the question remains, why the sudden jump in performance in the space of months?

As a I keep asking, if someone can point me in the direction of a rider who moved up from continental level and immediately started crushing 2.1 standard fields(not sprinters), then I will accept it as a precedent and not view it as highly surprising or a little suspicious as I currently do. It not just that he won these races but that he dominated completely.