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Dr. Maserati said:
What are you so angry about?

Seriously, get some perspective - and he certainly did not dominate today.
It was a 1 km climb to the finish.


I never said the races were weak - however they are early season events, not too long and not much climbing.

If these races were so prestigious why are the big names not there?
Of course these races are important to the French - but I certainly dont think either event is as big a step up as some make it.
I dont do angry, just putting a little emphasis on things.

Obviously our versions of domination vary considerably. Splitting the peloton by attacking, then looking around as if nothing happened and trading little attacks with other riders. Then on the final climp, putting 20 seconds into everyone in 1km except Hivert is domination in my book on top of being the strongest rider yesterday.

I never said these races were prestigious for the top riders but prestigious enough that good riders have always won them.
 

Dr. Maserati

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pmcg76 said:
I dont do angry, just putting a little emphasis on things.

Obviously our versions of domination vary considerably. Splitting the peloton by attacking, then looking around as if nothing happened and trading little attacks with other riders. Then on the final climp, putting 20 seconds into everyone in 1km except Hivert is domination in my book on top of being the strongest rider yesterday.
You admitted you didn't even see yesterdays stage and you had to google to find out what his past results were.

And no - I do not call beating Hivert by 20 seconds dominating.

pmcg76 said:
I never said these races were prestigious for the top riders but prestigious enough that good riders have always won them.
Sure - a big talent will do well in events like this even if not in top form - but instead of looking at past winners (which has nothing to do with anything) who in the current fields was on fire?
 
May 21, 2010
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The ToB is an 8 day stage race 2.1 standard 3 weeks before the worlds, he was 6th and KOM......I dont get how thats a quantum leap too his performances this year in tour of med and haut var(shorter also 2.1) which are many riders first race,just look at number of dnf's.I guess if ToB was in a different country itd be ok huh?
 
pmcg76 said:
A guy going from continetal pro with few results to dominating such races is almost as big a jump as a mid-rank ProTour rider turning into a GT contender a la Chris Froome. Can you really visualise Ronan McLaughlin or Mark Cassidy suddenly dominating these races?
I do not agree. I am with Libertine Seguros here. If you want to be TOP 3 in GT, you have to be exceptional in many areas: climibing, TT, recuperation etc and Froome had shown nothing in these areas. To win Haut-Var and Tour Med, you just need a good punch.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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The only way you can really compare somebody's ability is looking at their power files (that have not been doctored with a false slope). Yeah times on the climbs too with neutral wind.

stefrees said:
This has only rankled me as why should I believe dan Martin or anyone on garmin if they have dekker, millar or danielson?
I agree. Riders (especially domestiques) climbing at 6.2 w/kg. Common....Thats not even possible let alone what the team leaders must be doing. Read the training Peaks power files from the big races....wake up, smell coffee. :) So stefrees has the right idea.

"The people who (made) these charges, they wanted to be Lance and didn't manage it," Weltz said. "So OK you can hit him in another way. These aren't the right people to judge. For us and cycling, it was best that it was a federal investigation. They had no knowledge up front and no past in the sport. I think most justice happens that way. "You can always bring questions up for everything.

We are used to that in our world. You suspect someone if they do well,

"You can't go further when you have a federal investigation for two years and they don't nail him. You have to let the guy go," he said. "He was acting properly in (the) same environment as everyone else. He won his victories in a credible way.""


-Johnny Weltz Garmin sporting director
 
May 26, 2010
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BigBoat said:
The only way you can really compare somebody's ability is looking at their power files (that have not been doctored with a false slope). Yeah times on the climbs too with neutral wind.


I agree. Riders (especially domestiques) climbing at 6.2 w/kg. Common....Thats not even possible let alone what the team leaders must be doing. Read the training Peaks power files from the big races....wake up, smell coffee. :) So stefrees has the right idea.

"The people who (made) these charges, they wanted to be Lance and didn't manage it," Weltz said. "So OK you can hit him in another way. These aren't the right people to judge. For us and cycling, it was best that it was a federal investigation. They had no knowledge up front and no past in the sport. I think most justice happens that way. "You can always bring questions up for everything.

We are used to that in our world. You suspect someone if they do well,

"You can't go further when you have a federal investigation for two years and they don't nail him. You have to let the guy go," he said. "He was acting properly in (the) same environment as everyone else. He won his victories in a credible way.""


-Johnny Weltz Garmin sporting director

Johnny Weltz used to work for Armstrong. Go figure.
 
Somebody should ask JV or accidentally stumble across power outputs for the last km. I tried mapping it out, but while I am almost certain that I got the exact route for the last km, the elevation map doesn't seem to match the steepness in the video in the last 200+ meters or so.

Maybe the numbers are within the realm of believable, but there's little way of knowing it without somebody being kind enough to share their power file.
 
gooner said:
You cant say Mark Cassidy. I remember him on break on his own in the Tour of Ireland and him swinging from one side of the road to the other on a light climb and then getting caught and shed out the back on a easy flat stage where Mark Cavendish won.

Him dominating these races would be like JTL all of a sudden winning a Grand Tour. Come on. That wouldnt happen even if they were juiced up to their eyeballs.
Why not? They both were continental level riders last year. Maybe Cassidy might not be a climber at all but lets say he startetd all of a sudden started showing up in results at ProTour/Pro Conti level. It would be more than a little surprising.

Likewise, imagine if Bagdonas had stormed up the Malhao in Algarve in front of everyone else. I think people would have been more than a little suspicious instead of trying to pass it of as just some early season race that nobody cares about.

Also have to think if this guys talent was so obvious, why wasnt he snapped up or at least linked to a better team than Endura. After all Fenn went to Omega, Dempster had a trial run with HTC and Bagdonas/McNally were slated for moves to GEOX/Europcar before they fell through, Bauer was snapped up by Garmin.
 

Dr. Maserati

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pmcg76 said:
Why not? They both were continental level riders last year. Maybe Cassidy might not be a climber at all but lets say he startetd all of a sudden started showing up in results at ProTour/Pro Conti level. It would be more than a little surprising.
I think this is your problem.
You are comparing JTL to other riders when you know little about the guy.
Unlike Cas, JLT was not racing full time until 2010.


pmcg76 said:
Likewise, imagine if Bagdonas had stormed up the Malhao in Algarve in front of everyone else. I think people would have been more than a little suspicious instead of trying to pass it of as just some early season race that nobody cares about.
No-one has claimed that no-one cares about these races - thats a strawman, and frankly I am surprised someone like you does so.

They are important races, however which big guns were there contesting these races? Add to that ToM was gutted because of the weather so it was not as selective as before.


pmcg76 said:
Also have to think if this guys talent was so obvious, why wasnt he snapped up or at least linked to a better team than Endura. After all Fenn went to Omega, Dempster had a trial run with HTC and Bagdonas/McNally were slated for moves to GEOX/Europcar before they fell through, Bauer was snapped up by Garmin.
Who said his talent was "so obvious"? It wasn't, he appears a good capable rider - like many more that you mentioned.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
I think this is your problem.
You are comparing JTL to other riders when you know little about the guy.
Unlike Cas, JLT was not racing full time until 2010.



No-one has claimed that no-one cares about these races - thats a strawman, and frankly I am surprised someone like you does so.

They are important races, however which big guns were there contesting these races? Add to that ToM was gutted because of the weather so it was not as selective as before.



Who said his talent was "so obvious"? It wasn't, he appears a good capable rider - like many more that you mentioned.

The reason people know so little about him is because there is simply nothing to know. All those other guys put together a series of good results/performances at continental level to earn themselves contracts with ProTour teams. I bet none of them will perform anywhere near as well as JTL this year.

This is all really simple, we have a cyclist who never showed any real outstanding performances at a low level suddenly stomping on guys who compete at a much higher level, regardless of time of year. That is strange however you twist it.
 
roundabout said:
So what's the route for Murcia? I've been looking around and can't find anything despite it being only 2 weeks away.

I'd imagine Collado Bermejo once again and more famous opposition.

Edit: presentation tomorrow.
Thank you,i have been looking for it.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
<snip>

Who said his talent was "so obvious"? It wasn't, he appears a good capable rider - like many more that you mentioned.
His DS Brain Smith seems to think it was,

"It was a surprise for some but not to me or the rest of the boys in the team. Last year I was doing the commentary for a lot of the Premiere Calendar events, and I could see then he would attack on climbs and ride people off his wheel. He’d get away and just not know what to do but nobody could live with him at a British level."

I would imagine the news of a guy with said 'ability', would reach the ears of various teams in Europe.

He has ridden very well in the early season this week when a lot of pros are not on top of their ability, but a lot of others are, as they also know this is the opportunity to make big teams take note and the chance of a win is better now than when team leaders are reaching peak form for monuments or the bigger tours prior to Giro and TdF so for me JTL's wins are impressive.

I would be interested to hear why he left 'arguably' the biggest team (after Sky) in the UK, Rapha Condor Sharp.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
No-one has claimed that no-one cares about these races - thats a strawman, and frankly I am surprised someone like you does so.

They are important races, however which big guns were there contesting these races? Add to that ToM was gutted because of the weather so it was not as selective as before.
Removing the doping context, I think it's devaluing the performance to think that any reasonable cyclist could do what JTL did, provided that they show up in top shape. If it was Kelderman or Novikov who blitzed the two races it would still be an unbelievable performance and beyond what one may have expected from their talent at this stage. If it was Simon Clarke, it would still be remarkable. It has been a superb effort by JTL, and he looks to be very promising.

thehog said:
Does someone have a video link of the performance? I've not seen it.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xottur

Don't just watch the finish, watch the penultimate climb too, about 1hr 35' in, great riding.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
The reason people know so little about him is because there is simply nothing to know. All those other guys put together a series of good results/performances at continental level to earn themselves contracts with ProTour teams. I bet none of them will perform anywhere near as well as JTL this year.
No - the reason is YOU know little about him - hence why you are trying to compare him to people you do know.

pmcg76 said:
This is all really simple, we have a cyclist who never showed any real outstanding performances at a low level suddenly stomping on guys who compete at a much higher level, regardless of time of year. That is strange however you twist it.
It is really simple.
For a team like Endura, these events are huge and their priority for this part of the season.
You appear to be giving little value to other events JTL has done well in and then over selling ToM & TdHV.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
<snip>

It is really simple.
For a team like Endura, these events are huge and their priority for this part of the season.
You appear to be giving little value to other events JTL has done well in and then over selling ToM & TdHV.
I would have thought that these races are very important to all teams who compete in them. If a rider can get a win, whether a Voeckler or Clarke it raises team moral and can set a tone for the season.

Sky have taken the Volta Algarve very seriously, winning all the stages and overall.
 
Benotti69 said:
I would be interested to hear why he left 'arguably' the biggest team (after Sky) in the UK, Rapha Condor Sharp.
Rapha Condor - Sharp has been turned into a development team, signing several very young riders (a.o. the younger Kennaugh brother), and only keeping House, McCallum and Dean Downing as "elder statesmen"/mentors/capitaines de la route. Clancy and Tennant are special cases as track riders.
I suppose this decision was made because the sponsors didn't want to raise the budget substantially, which would have been necessary to keep all the riders they had last year (Briggs, Craven, Dempster, Tiernan-Locke).

So Endura (and also IG - Sigma Sport and Raleigh) have picked up these talented riders - and they'd be stupid not to do it. Dempster would maybe have gotten a contract at Highroad if they had continued, Craven was considered by Europcar if they had gotten a WT license. I don't know whether WT teams looked at Tiernan-Locke, or if he was approached by Endura with the prospect of becoming one of their leaders and thought that would be better than jumping to a WT team and possibly be relegated to watercarrying duties.
The team isn't bad at all, and if guys like Bibby, Blain, Dempster, Russell Downing, Mandri, Voss or Wetterhall ride as well as they did in the past, young riders like McEvoy, Rowsell and Thwaites continue their progress, and the team sign a couple of good riders for 2013, I can see them getting wildcards to WT races. And if NetApp gets a wildcard for the Giro, a strengthened Endura Racing Team may well get a wildcard for the Vuelta next year.
 

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