No doping controls??

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Jul 18, 2010
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stefrees said:
What makes dan Martin the voice on doping in the peloton?

Fwiw endura and indeed tiernan Locke are bike pure.

This has only rankled me as why should I believe dan Martin or anyone on garmin if they have dekker, millar or danielson?
Why is Danielson being linked with Dekker and Millar? Have I missed his previous suspension for doping?
 
Jul 18, 2010
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stefrees said:
What makes dan Martin the voice on doping in the peloton?

Fwiw endura and indeed tiernan Locke are bike pure.

This has only rankled me as why should I believe dan Martin or anyone on garmin if they have dekker, millar or danielson?
Shouldn't you be happy that he brought this issue to the surface as opposed to keeping it to himself, enjoying his good fortune if in fact he felt lucky about not being tested?
 
Jul 18, 2010
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hatcher said:
We don't know what Martin's tweet meant, and we certainly have no evidence he was suggesting anything at all about Tiernan-Locke.

Two things.
1. The idea that JTL has come out of absolutely nowhere isn't quite true. He was a very talented youngster who was struck down with a very severe illness, and was out of racing for a number of years because of it. He came back to ride a British calendar, which is the exact opposite sort of racing that suits him. When he did get a chance to ride more suitable races (vuelta a leon, tour of britain etc) he performed just about every time.

2. I think people are going slightly overboard in rating JTL's performances thus far this year. He has of course been very impressive, but at this point of the season form/fitness can carry a rider a long way (Porte, Richie).
+1 Good post.
 
Jul 18, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
Obviously the pro peloton is now so clean that the UCI dont need to bother with testing :rolleyes:

IMO when a pro calls another pro's performance 'unbelievable' it generally is ;), history of the sport has also shown this to be true.

That does not mean JTL is doping but it does raise a suspicion.
I'm sure JTL knew there wouldn't be testing which would explain his great performance.Being from a Pro Continental team gives him exclusive insight into important decisions not privvy to the World Tour teams.:rolleyes:
 
Jul 18, 2010
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maltiv said:
Keep in mind that Froome was actually a respectable professional bike rider before his Vuelta, with decent results such as being top 15 in a TDF time trial at a very young age. Results aren't everything either as Froome also had done some very decent domestique work too. JTL, on the other hand, isn't even a professional and had barely collected a single CQ point before the end of last year. Of course those are small races he is winning but the competition isn't that bad and the easy in which he wins is just ridiculous. I haven't seen anything like this since Ricco sprinted up mountains in 2008 without even opening his mouth.
What is your definition of "a professional"?:confused:
 
La Pandera said:
I'm sure JTL knew there wouldn't be testing which would explain his great performance.Being from a Pro Continental team gives him exclusive insight into important decisions not privvy to the World Tour teams.:rolleyes:
They're not pro-continental, just continental. Thank God, else the GT's would be boring this year :D:rolleyes:
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Froome's best mountain performance to that point was in an uphill sprint in Romandie. Elsewhere he'd managed a top 10 on Mont Faron - in February '08 - and a top 10 in an MTF in the Brixia Tour, behind such lauded climbers as Fabio Taborre. People pointed out about his performance in the Alpe d'Huez stage in '08 at the time as a justification of him always having that ability, but Johan van Summeren was also in the group at that point, and you bet that if people like Taborre and van Summeren start shedding people like Rodríguez and Nibali out the back door on GT MTFs I'll wet myself laughing.

As a UK domestic pro, Tiernan-Locke has not had the chance to do races like this that suit him. The UK domestic scene is full of flat races, crits and occasionally moderately hilly one-day races. Froome on the other hand had been part of the pro circuit for five years, and proven very little.

And for added comedy value, you had people going on about how obviously Cobo was doping and cheating the clean Chris Froome out of a GT. Hours of fun.
For someone with your knowledge, I find it hard to believe that you are actually buying this domestic races dont suit me BS. Every pro rider from the Netherlands could use that bloody excuse. What, do you think all the races in Britain are pancake flat designed with Cavendish in mind. Staight of the top of my head, I can think of the Lincoln GP which has a decent hill in it than is raced over numerous times. What would Robert Millar think?
 
pmcg76 said:
For someone with your knowledge, I find it hard to believe that you are actually buying this domestic races dont suit me BS. Every pro rider from the Netherlands could use that bloody excuse. What, do you think all the races in Britain are pancake flat designed with Cavendish in mind. Staight of the top of my head, I can think of the Lincoln GP which has a decent hill in it than is raced over numerous times. What would Robert Millar think?
All I did was explain why I thought Tiernan-Locke's performances have not been as ludicrous as Froome's Vuelta transformation - yet.

How many British domestic races suit puncheurs? The Lincoln GP has a decent hill in it, but it's not very long and is cobbled.

The British cycling calendar is not really designed around opportunities to find a decent climber. Sometimes, a star-like talent will fall into their lap, like Robert Millar. Millar didn't make himself a star in Britain. He was a guy who was a top drawer born climber, who just happened to be British. Unless you're in the Team Sky umbrella, which Tiernan-Locke isn't, then what are the opportunities for a British rider who can climb?
1) pack your bags for Europe and try and make it elsewhere; this is fraught with risk. A guy like Tomas Metcalfe has carved a decent niche for himself as a domestique down in Portugal, but promising guys like James Spragg and Tom Faiers don't have a team for 2012.
2) ride the domestic scene and hope you make a good enough impression on the handful of race days you get that suit you to get noticed.

Tiernan-Locke clearly did the 2nd, and the move to Endura has been good to him; Endura are more Europe-facing than Rapha Condor, whose aims in a season are harder to reconcile with his skillset. He could well just be peaking for this deliberately as a team plan for better invites later on and good team points with a view to becoming ProContinental in the future (I know some people have suggested Endura have been considering this).

He could be shady as hell, it could be a miracle transformation, it could be natural but shocking progression. But it isn't quite as pants-wettingly funny as Froome yet. I mean, Santiago Pérez was sat at home shaking his head at that. When Tiernan-Locke stomps the field by a minute in the Murcía ITT, then we can talk.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
For someone with your knowledge, I find it hard to believe that you are actually buying this domestic races dont suit me BS. Every pro rider from the Netherlands could use that bloody excuse. What, do you think all the races in Britain are pancake flat designed with Cavendish in mind. Staight of the top of my head, I can think of the Lincoln GP which has a decent hill in it than is raced over numerous times. What would Robert Millar think?
I'm not sure what Cav or Robert Millar have to do with the domestic scene, but okay.

As for the Lincoln GP, JTL was in the final selection last year, but was working pulling back breaks for team leader Zak Dempster. JTL was hugely impressive that day.
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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I am a little surprised at all the fuss over JTLs result.

I just watched the end of todays stage and from comments here had expected much more - he was part of a group that were snapping at the heels of the break and it all came down to the last km and a 4 or 5 minute effort.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
I am a little surprised at all the fuss over JTLs result.

I just watched the end of todays stage and from comments here had expected much more - he was part of a group that were snapping at the heels of the break and it all came down to the last km and a 4 or 5 minute effort.
Totally agree. He wasn't exactly flying away from people. He looked like a good rider in excellent form.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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roundabout said:
He also basically forced the selection on the previous climb and was about 10 seconds faster than the next best in the last km.
He did, but it was really just an acceleration that about 10 riders didn't have that much trouble following. To me it was the move of somebody bubbling with confidence, and wanting to let the others know.
 
hatcher said:
He did, but it was really just an acceleration that about 10 riders didn't have that much trouble following. To me it was the move of somebody bubbling with confidence, and wanting to let the others know.


Looked to me like someone toying with the rest of the group. He forced the split, then slowed and started looking around to see what damage he had done. He obvioulsy knew he was stronger than the rest at the point. I kept waiting for him to go again at any point.
 
hatcher said:
I'm not sure what Cav or Robert Millar have to do with the domestic scene, but okay.

As for the Lincoln GP, JTL was in the final selection last year, but was working pulling back breaks for team leader Zak Dempster. JTL was hugely impressive that day.
Well Millar was an out and out climber so what races suited him in the UK? but he did enough to get noticed like winning the National championship and got a move to the Continent. Obvioulsy if a rider is good enough, regardless of type they will come to the forefront.

I just think this "those type of races didnt suit him statements" is just BS.

If JTL was such a good rider, why was he riding for Dempster in the first place. Makes no sense. Fact is this, if JTL were not British and some non-entity from another country, people would be throwing out the doped line right, left and centre. As I said if it had been Bagdonas who had put in those performances over the last two weeks, then it would have been a different case altogether.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Well Millar was an out and out climber so what races suited him in the UK? but he did enough to get noticed like winning the National championship and got a move to the Continent. Obvioulsy if a rider is good enough, regardless of type they will come to the forefront.

I just think this "those type of races didnt suit him statements" is just BS.

If JTL was such a good rider, why was he riding for Dempster in the first place. Makes no sense. Fact is this, if JTL were not British and some non-entity from another country, people would be throwing out the doped line right, left and centre. As I said if it had been Bagdonas who had put in those performances over the last two weeks, then it would have been a different case altogether.
Well Millar moved to the continent as a young amateur, the same as JTL did, and Tiernan-Locke got a lot of results on the continent before he got mono. I think I read in an article earlier today that he finished on the podium in his final 10 amateur races in France before the mono struck.

Cycling is all about races not suiting people. It seems a really good reason for someone not winning a lot.

Dempster is a really good rider too, and was on fire at that point of the season.

If Bagdonas is very impressive in a number of early one-day races, against non-elite riders in non-elite fitness I don't think many will be surprised. They certainly shouldn't be.

The fact that JTL is British means no more than some of us were actually aware of him prior to the last few weeks, and have seen him ride away from everyone on every hill in Britain over the last two years.

I'm not suggesting his performances are not surprising, or even shocking, I just don't want it to become accepted fact that prior to the last few weeks he was a nobody.
 
hatcher said:
Well Millar moved to the continent as a young amateur, the same as JTL did, and Tiernan-Locke got a lot of results on the continent before he got mono. I think I read in an article earlier today that he finished on the podium in his final 10 amateur races in France before the mono struck.

Cycling is all about races not suiting people. It seems a really good reason for someone not winning a lot.

Dempster is a really good rider too, and was on fire at that point of the season.

If Bagdonas is very impressive in a number of early one-day races, against non-elite riders in non-elite fitness I don't think many will be surprised. They certainly shouldn't be.

The fact that JTL is British means no more than some of us were actually aware of him prior to the last few weeks, and have seen him ride away from everyone on every hill in Britain over the last two years.

I'm not suggesting his performances are not surprising, or even shocking, I just don't want it to become accepted fact that prior to the last few weeks he was a nobody.
Well I hate to break it to you, if you have spent the last three years riding on continental teams and have not chalked up any notable victories, then in the bigger picture you are a nobody. That might be harsh and cruel but its also a fact.

Well according to logic being put forward here, the only races that JTL is suited to are ones that finish on climbs, not just any climb either, only a certain type of climb. If its below or above that certain length or gradient, then he is not so good. Does anyone realise how ridiculous that sounds.

I would really love if JTL is riding cleanly because it would really affirm the sport is truly cleaning up in a big way and that would be fantastic for all cycling fans. But just look at the palmares of the Tour of the Med and Tour of Haut Var, there are a lot of classy riders in there, no Div 3 riders who suddenly turn into dominating riders regardless of time of year.

I think I wil reserve my level of skeptcism but would be only to happy to be proven incorrect.
 
Libertine Seguros said:
Disagree. It's not as hilariously ridiculous as Chris Froome just yet.

If he wins the hilly stage in Murcía, then stomps everybody by a minute in the time trial, then we can talk about it being as hilariously ridiculous as Chris Froome. But not until.
Still upset about the Vuelta?
 
hatcher said:
Well Millar moved to the continent as a young amateur, the same as JTL did, and Tiernan-Locke got a lot of results on the continent before he got mono. I think I read in an article earlier today that he finished on the podium in his final 10 amateur races in France before the mono struck.

Cycling is all about races not suiting people. It seems a really good reason for someone not winning a lot.

Dempster is a really good rider too, and was on fire at that point of the season.

If Bagdonas is very impressive in a number of early one-day races, against non-elite riders in non-elite fitness I don't think many will be surprised. They certainly shouldn't be.

The fact that JTL is British means no more than some of us were actually aware of him prior to the last few weeks, and have seen him ride away from everyone on every hill in Britain over the last two years.

I'm not suggesting his performances are not surprising, or even shocking, I just don't want it to become accepted fact that prior to the last few weeks he was a nobody.
Good, sensible post mate. I'm just catching up with JTL's background and this helped.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
Well I hate to break it to you, if you have spent the last three years riding on continental teams and have not chalked up any notable victories, then in the bigger picture you are a nobody. That might be harsh and cruel but its also a fact.

Well according to logic being put forward here, the only races that JTL is suited to are ones that finish on climbs, not just any climb either, only a certain type of climb. If its below or above that certain length or gradient, then he is not so good. Does anyone realise how ridiculous that sounds.

I would really love if JTL is riding cleanly because it would really affirm the sport is truly cleaning up in a big way and that would be fantastic for all cycling fans. But just look at the palmares of the Tour of the Med and Tour of Haut Var, there are a lot of classy riders in there, no Div 3 riders who suddenly turn into dominating riders regardless of time of year.

I think I wil reserve my level of skeptcism but would be only to happy to be proven incorrect.
Skepticism is healthy. I'm just trying to fill in some of his history.

I'm not sure who, or where anyone said JTL can't win above or below certain gradients and above/below certain climb lengths. What we do know is he's a rider that likes hills, and that isn't an odd or ridiculous thing. We haven't ever seen him ride a big mountain, and certainly not against the big climbers.

He has really ridden the last two years for a continental team, and a continental team whose schedule is probably 60% made up of crits, so it's not really a surprise that he only had a couple of wins. Winning the stage of the Vuelta a Leon over the exceptionally talented Marc Goos was no mean feat, and was commented on (I think on this forum) at the time by some of the Dutchies.

Anyway, we'll see where he goes from here.
 
The Hitch said:
Still upset about the Vuelta?
If you'd told me in August last year that I'd be cheering Juanjó Cobo up Peña Cabarga to defend the leader's jersey from Chris freaking Froome, I'd have probably laughed in your face. Hell, even after one week of the Vuelta, the same. Even after his heroics on La Covatilla. I was thinking "wow, great job from Froome, didn't expect that", then assumed they'd have him soft pedal the TT so he'd be strong enough to work for Wiggins until the other climbing guns like Lövkvist took over as lead domestique for week 3.

Still, I can't be too upset, since the in-from-the-cold made-for-TV sports movie plot won out over the elves-and-sorcerers fairytale movie plot.
 
Personally I would expect to see lot of similar craziness and miraculous performances from GB riders between now and the Olympics, but in the YouTube clips of the finish of the Haut Var you can clearly see a sign directing towards the dope testing area so there's at least some pretence of dope control on the race.
 
hatcher said:
Skepticism is healthy. I'm just trying to fill in some of his history.

I'm not sure who, or where anyone said JTL can't win above or below certain gradients and above/below certain climb lengths. What we do know is he's a rider that likes hills, and that isn't an odd or ridiculous thing. We haven't ever seen him ride a big mountain, and certainly not against the big climbers.

He has really ridden the last two years for a continental team, and a continental team whose schedule is probably 60% made up of crits, so it's not really a surprise that he only had a couple of wins. Winning the stage of the Vuelta a Leon over the exceptionally talented Marc Goos was no mean feat, and was commented on (I think on this forum) at the time by some of the Dutchies.

Anyway, we'll see where he goes from here.
Well, I decided to do some more research on JTL and it would seem that he raced a lot outside the UK last year therefore making a mockery of the idea that he wasnt noticed because UK racing doesnt suit him, I guess racing in other countries didnt really suit him either. Looking through his programme, he raced in South Africa, South Korea, Mallorca and a number of French races including Tour of Normandy, Circuit de Lorraine, Boucles de l'Mayene & Ronde l'Oise. In fact he won one race in the UK which was Ryedale GP.

I also noted that his victory in Leon was partly due to the fact he wasnt riding in the lead as his team were defending the race lead at the time. According to the man himself, he was fresher than everyone else because he wasnt working. Rapha-Condor website.

Also his postion at the Tour of Britain was more down to his perfromance in the TT than through the hills. Ironic considering he sucked in most of the TTs he had done previously against lesser opposition.

Yes, it truly is amazing what you learn when you do a little background research. Which again leads us back to the original point in that I see nothing in his previous performances to suggest anywhere neat the level of racing he achieved over the last few weeks.
 

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