No doping controls??

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TeamSkyFans said:
theres a source reference on the wiki page at the end of the paragraph.
Yeah, I see it came from the RedKitePrayer article by John Wilcockson. However that doesnt tally with the results I posted. I could only find two results for JTL in Feb/Mar so either he achieved those podium finishes at much lower quality races or there is a journalist being creative with the truth.
 
ultimobici said:
I've gleaned a little in the last 30 years yes.

I was referring to the assertion that JTL's performances in ToM & TdHV were "extraterrestrial". I see no reason to believe that. My reason for contrasting him with Julien El Fares was that they are within 6 months of each other in age and were on similar paths until fate stepped in.

You seem to think that JTL must be doping to win in the way he has and dismiss his previous results as irrelevant because they're not big European races. Was the ToB just a sunday club run then?
The only thing that connects JTL and El Fares was that they done a few of the same races. You could also say that all the other guys in that top 10 were on the same path as well but most of them never made it. There were literally hundreds of riders on the same path.

My reason for doubting JTL is I cannot ever recall an oldish continental rider stepping up and dominating at a higher level like that. Seems nobody else can either. There is simply no precedent for it, therefore performances like this are unusual and very susprising.

People keep saying the top guys are out of shape and dont care about early season races, clearly nobody told the big guns at Tour of Algarve or Ruta del Sol. I will admit that the peloton in France didnt have as many big guns but to suggest riders arent in shape a few weeks out from Paris-Nice/T-A is a misnomer. They might not be in Tour shape but they aint far away either.
 
May 26, 2010
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pmcg76 said:
The only thing that connects JTL and El Fares was that they done a few of the same races. You could also say that all the other guys in that top 10 were on the same path as well but most of them never made it. There were literally hundreds of riders on the same path.

My reason for doubting JTL is I cannot ever recall an oldish continental rider stepping up and dominating at a higher level like that. Seems nobody else can either. There is simply no precedent for it, therefore performances like this are unusual and very susprising.

People keep saying the top guys are out of shape and dont care about early season races, clearly nobody told the big guns at Tour of Algarve or Ruta del Sol. I will admit that the peloton in France didnt have as many big guns but to suggest riders arent in shape a few weeks out from Paris-Nice/T-A is a misnomer. They might not be in Tour shape but they aint far away either.
" but to suggest riders arent in shape a few weeks out from Paris-Nice/T-A is a misnomer. They might not be in Tour shape but they aint far away either."

+1

These are the races for lieutenants and riders who have shown promise the season before to once again impress and to suggest that have not been training for it and not have a decent level of form, well i very much doubt that. A win in a season can make all the difference between getting a new contract and no ride.
 
May 21, 2010
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Benotti69 said:
" but to suggest riders arent in shape a few weeks out from Paris-Nice/T-A is a misnomer. They might not be in Tour shape but they aint far away either."

+1

These are the races for lieutenants and riders who have shown promise the season before to once again impress and to suggest that have not been training for it and not have a decent level of form, well i very much doubt that. A win in a season can make all the difference between getting a new contract and no ride.
If everyone was in such good pre Paris-Nice shape, and the ToHV so prestigious, then why did half the field DNF ?
 
May 26, 2010
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User Guide said:
If everyone was in such good pre Paris-Nice shape, and the ToHV so prestigious, then why did half the field DNF ?
where did i say everyone? But lots of riders are in good shape. JTL made them look like they weren't.
 
User Guide said:
If everyone was in such good pre Paris-Nice shape, and the ToHV so prestigious, then why did half the field DNF ?
Because half the field DNF means that the other half is out of shape or not in top shape?

Look and the tough Paris Roubaix, or TdF or Giros. You get editions where there are a lot of DNF's. What do that mean? That could mean a lot of things different to riders being in top shape. IMO.
 
Also, a lot of stage races see beaucoup de DNFs on the final day. Lots of riders, especially if they're not in contention and are far enough down that they can't score any points for the race or be of any more use to the teammates up the road, will simply climb off. Only about 45 people finished the 2010 Tour of California for this reason, and many short stage races are the same, particularly early in the season or when the weather is bad, as riders don't want to ride on and risk illnesses unless they have something to fight for (stage win, GC position, team leader doing well). Last day DNFs are very common in minor races, and even some relatively major ones.
 
Dec 27, 2010
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You get it even in races like MSR. Easier for dropped riders to cruise along the coast road into San Remo rather than over the capi and actually finish officially.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I would truly love it if he is doing it properly

This is quite clearly BS. It seems you really, really hope good talents are doping so you can point the finger and maybe, just maybe, if they get caught you can feel vindicated in you excessive cynicism.

I notice that you barely post outside the Clinic. Perhaps you should find a sport you like, or maybe a day-time soap opera that will give you the gossip and self-righteousness that you crave.
 
Mambo95 said:
This is quite clearly BS. It seems you really, really hope good talents are doping so you can point the finger and maybe, just maybe, if they get caught you can feel vindicated in you excessive cynicism.

I notice that you barely post outside the Clinic. Perhaps you should find a sport you like, or maybe a day-time soap opera that will give you the gossip and self-righteousness that you crave.[/QUOTE,

Ah yes, one of the self-appointed forum police who come to the clinic to complain about people talking about doping and tells them to find something else to do. If you knew half as much as you think you do, you would know that up until the collapse of the Federal investigation, I had hardly posted on here in months. Also I am not normally one for getting involved in threads that accuse riders of doping, in fact I am usually defending them if anything.

However when I see a continental pro dominate a mostly ProTour field it makes me suspicious. I think we stopped argiung about whether JTL is doping or not a long time ago and moved onto the debate of whether his performances were a big surprise or not.

Also I have seen so much BS in this thread its unreal.

He wasnt noticed because he rode mostly crits in the UK. False.
He had lots of other good results. He doesnt.
He didnt dominate these French races. He did.
The Tour of Britain is equal in quality to the Tour Haut Var. Its not
None of the other riders are in shape even though Paris-Nice is 2 weeks away.
He was destined to be a pro except he then got sick. Wild speculation
He beat Julien El Fares in an amateur race 7 years ago so that is proof he is better than El Fares. Really!!!

Instead of launching random attacks, maybe you can go and find another continental rider who suddenly started winning higher level races for fun. Then use that as evidence that such things are not at all surprising and that I am in fact wrong to be suspicious.
 
Feb 22, 2012
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pmcg76 said:
Instead of launching random attacks, maybe you can go and find another continental rider who suddenly started winning higher level races for fun. Then use that as evidence that such things are not at all surprising and that I am in fact wrong to be suspicious.
The result was certainly surprising but the sad thing is that this sport has degenerated to a level where surprise leads to suspicion of doping.

Continental riders beating a field of Pro Tour riders is certainly surprising although Endura are Continental in name only. Their riders are all pro conti level. Indeed several have had experience at Pro Tour. Even their young riders have wide experience. For eg. Thwaites is in his first year as a full time cyclist after leaving university. Nevertheless, he has raced World cyclo cross, MTB and road Champs, won 2 british "monunents" last year and is the current British u 23 road race champion. To do that he beat a lot of pro's and the whole Olympic Academy squad, which included Rowe (SKY). He beat Fenn (OPQ) in the sprint and Fenn holds a bronze from the Worlds and has just won two sprint stages against Pro Tour riders in Mallorca. Just hope the lad doesnt win anything decent this year as he does'nt appear to have a wikipedia entry which based on this thread must make him guity of something.:)
Reports suggest JTL was close to a Pro Tour contract after TOB. Had he got that then the arguments about the massive jump between conti and pro Tour would have been less relevant.

I'll remain surprised, but open minded.
 
Apr 17, 2009
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Mambo95 said:
This is quite clearly BS. It seems you really, really hope good talents are doping so you can point the finger and maybe, just maybe, if they get caught you can feel vindicated in you excessive cynicism.

I notice that you barely post outside the Clinic. Perhaps you should find a sport you like, or maybe a day-time soap opera that will give you the gossip and self-righteousness that you crave.
Mambo95.

He knows everyones' motivation better than they do themselves. And he can glean this simply by reading one post on an internet forum.

Omnipotent.

Omnipresent.

An Online Deity.
 
Apr 17, 2009
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I was big time impressed with JTL when I saw him driving the break on his own in the Twinings Classic this year. It is a big step up, but a plausible one given his history.
 
Feb 6, 2012
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There is a severe lack of UK pro-contyi riders in europe. Anybody able to name them for me, because I can't see that many who have been given the chance.

If JTL was pro conti then many of these posts wouldn't be happening, but to be a UK rider meand being pro tour domestique level is needed just o get a pro conti contract.
 
May 26, 2010
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mudplugger said:
The result was certainly surprising but the sad thing is that this sport has degenerated to a level where surprise leads to suspicion of doping.

<snip>
If posters dont like it like this, well you know who they can blame!

The cyclists who dope.
The DS who encourage doping.
The Doctors who administer the doping.
The dealers who provide the dope.
The federations who turn a blind eye until even the blind can see the obvious doping.
The race organisers who dont demand more is done to catch dopers.
 
Jul 10, 2011
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For me this is the borning of a new star in our sports. Unfortunately he is not brazilian. Maybe one day we have a winner cyclist...
 
Apr 17, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
... I am in fact wrong to be suspicious.
I personally wouldn't blame anyone for being suspicious of any cyclist who steps up in a big way.

How much does he earn on Endura, is it worth a two year ban if he loses his livelihood? I think doping's often primarily financially motivated. I have to ask myself, is he on enough money for a sophisticated program? What's in it for him?

Mind you, we had a *** in the UK who got done for EPO in crappy local races. But he was caught, and anyone who has to resort to low tech methods is likely to be caught as well. I'm taking it he's not off to Tenerife for some 'training', so I think it's likely that time will tell in JTL's case.
 
Mar 22, 2011
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badboygolf16v said:
Mambo95.

He knows everyones' motivation better than they do themselves. And he can glean this simply by reading one post on an internet forum.

Omnipotent.

Omnipresent.

An Online Deity.
It's as accurate as the other guesswork and speculation going on in here.
 
benotti69 said:
if posters dont like it like this, well you know who they can blame!

The cyclists who dope.
The ds who encourage doping.
The doctors who administer the doping.
The dealers who provide the dope.
The federations who turn a blind eye until even the blind can see the obvious doping.
The race organisers who dont demand more is done to catch dopers.
+1.

.......................
 
Feb 4, 2010
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Escarabajo said:
+1.

.......................

How about add the "fans" who want bigger, faster, more exciting from pro sports athletes and viciously denigrate athletes who don't perform up to expectations?

"the only thing worse than a doper is someone who performs like they're clean"
 
Jun 28, 2009
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At the risk of being lambasted, participation in sport requires that both mind and body be ready to tackle the task at hand. I believe that anyone can step up to the plate at anytime for none of us can ever know what percentage the other is operating at.

The point is, many factors are involved (yes, doping could be one of those factors), and as we move through life we change. Change can affect our mental outlook on things and cause us to view things differently and possibly one day dig deeper than we have in the past.

Time may tell for JTL or it may not. Maybe he is just having the rides of his life right now and it is a short stay. Maybe he is growing and changing and will continue to shine due to some soul searching. Who knows, it is sport. Some people get better over time, some people get worse, and some people stay the same. Sounds a lot like life in general. :D
 

Dr. Maserati

BANNED
Jun 19, 2009
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9000ft said:
How about add the "fans" who want bigger, faster, more exciting from pro sports athletes and viciously denigrate athletes who don't perform up to expectations?

"the only thing worse than a doper is someone who performs like they're clean"
Where are these fans?
It is cute that you quoted yourself again but I have never once read after a race a comment from "fans" complaining that a ride was too slow and that they wanted more from an event.
Repeating it doesn't make it so.

Quite simply if a performance is viewed as "unbelievable" it won't take long before fans stop believing.
 
virandociclista said:
For me this is the borning of a new star in our sports. Unfortunately he is not brazilian. Maybe one day we have a winner cyclist...
http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=338&year=2005&all=1&current=0

On a Pro Continental team he made the top 10 CQ ranking for the year with over 1100 points. He's never made the top 150 before or since. Running roughshod over those .1 rated races in Italy in the late season. Fischer was 26 at the time.

Realistically, that's the sort of domination we are seeing from Tiernan-Locke (and he needs to continue it for at least another couple of races to match); could it be the birth of a new superstar? Or could it be a ticket to being nothing more than okay at the next level? Only time will tell really.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
Ah yes, one of the self-appointed forum police who come to the clinic to complain about people talking about doping and tells them to find something else to do. If you knew half as much as you think you do, you would know that up until the collapse of the Federal investigation, I had hardly posted on here in months. Also I am not normally one for getting involved in threads that accuse riders of doping, in fact I am usually defending them if anything.

However when I see a continental pro dominate a mostly ProTour field it makes me suspicious. I think we stopped argiung about whether JTL is doping or not a long time ago and moved onto the debate of whether his performances were a big surprise or not.

Also I have seen so much BS in this thread its unreal.

He wasnt noticed because he rode mostly crits in the UK. False.
He had lots of other good results. He doesnt.
He didnt dominate these French races. He did.
The Tour of Britain is equal in quality to the Tour Haut Var. Its not
None of the other riders are in shape even though Paris-Nice is 2 weeks away.
He was destined to be a pro except he then got sick. Wild speculation
He beat Julien El Fares in an amateur race 7 years ago so that is proof he is better than El Fares. Really!!!

Instead of launching random attacks, maybe you can go and find another continental rider who suddenly started winning higher level races for fun. Then use that as evidence that such things are not at all surprising and that I am in fact wrong to be suspicious.
I'll summarise your posts simply for you.

1. I don't know the cyclist
2. I don't know the team
3. I only really understand races
4. I don't understand the progression of a cyclist who gets ill and then goes to Uni
4. As a clinic regular I think everything is about doping
5. Good performances before aren't relevant because I didn't see them.
5. Please, please Clinic regulars. Can you validate me? Let me join your club.
 
Mambo95 said:
I'll summarise your posts simply for you.

1. I don't know the cyclist
2. I don't know the team
3. I only really understand races
4. I don't understand the progression of a cyclist who gets ill and then goes to Uni
4. As a clinic regular I think everything is about doping
5. Good performances before aren't relevant because I didn't see them.
5. Please, please Clinic regulars. Can you validate me? Let me join your club.
As I said before, it is very clear you absolutely nothing about my post history and calling people names aint gonna get it done either. Did you even try to refute any of my points? No, straight into "you are just another of the clinic idiots who accuses everyone of doping". I can safely say you know jack about my feelings on the subject of doping or what constitutes proof of doping.

I knew JTL as much as I know any continental rider, if there had been reason to notice him better, then I probably would have but up until Tour of Britain, most people would not have had a clue who he was either.
In the name of fairness, I have done as much checking up on the history of JTL as possible. His record in France before he got ill, his performances since his return to cycling etc, etc. All I was able to come up with is that, yes he is considered a good climber but then a good climber in UK at Premier Calendar level is not the same as a good climber in Europe. I found nothing to suggest that he could perform at the level he did in France recently or that he was some super talent way-layed by sickness. His performances at Tour of Britain need to be put into the context of the weakness of the field and the fact that he was targetting the KOM competition which not too many cared about. Clearly none of the ProTour teams were sufficently impressed to sign him up.

Finally, at no point have I said that JTL is definitely doping. I merely stated that I find sudden large jumps in performance as suspicious. I dont think thats a particularly ridiculous facet to have based on the history of this sport. You have a problem with people who cast dispersions on a rider in that way and if thats how you feel, then I have no problem with that. Thats your choice, its also your choice whether you want to post here or not so my advice would be not to post here. I know I dont get involved in things I have no interest in.

You are British so you feel it is your duty to protect the honour of British cyclists as do most of the people defending JTL. I can gurantee most people wouldnt be on here ranting and raving if it was some unknown rider from Ukraine, Portugal or Spain.
 

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