Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Totally do not get having two skate sprints in the Tour, for whatever reason.

When the sprints are in Toblach and Davos it makes sense to have them in skate, especially the Davos one. I’ve read in Norwegian media that the courses in Davos and Toblach are deemed to be less suitable for classic sprint.
Davos would’ve been done double poling and with stupid running on blank skis up that one hill if they put a technique zone. The Toblach course could work in classic with technique zones.

 

[meat puppet]

I should have been clearer, but I beg you all pardons, it's the beer talking already 🫡

The main point was just that to cut costs, one way would be to limit the amount of skis and ban the expensive waxing practices on the junior level. So to clarify: apply as much of basic blue paraffin glide wax (something like 20€ per 200 gram block when on sale) and it's kick wax equivalent as needed, but nothing more.

Would probably help with talent spotting too, as family pocket depth would be less of a factor.

 

[dobrien]

When the sprints are in Toblach and Davos it makes sense to have them in skate, especially the Davos one. I’ve read in Norwegian media that the courses in Davos and Toblach are deemed to be less suitable for classic sprint.
Davos would’ve been done double poling and with stupid running on blank skis up that one hill if they put a technique zone. The Toblach course could work in classic with technique zones.

I do recall reading this now that you mention it. For me, whatever the challenges necessary to make one a classic would be worth it; having two as skate is really unfair to the more classic oriented skiers.

 

[dobrien]

I should have been clearer, but I beg you all pardons, it's the beer talking already 🫡

The main point was just that to cut costs, one way would be to limit the amount of skis and ban the expensive waxing practices on the junior level. So to clarify: apply as much of basic blue paraffin glide wax (something like 20€ per 200 gram block when on sale) and it's kick wax equivalent as needed, but nothing more.

Would probably help with talent spotting too, as family pocket depth would be less of a factor.

Agreed 100% with your last; definitely wouldn't hurt. And you are of course pardoned for the beer talking!

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I agree it should be one classic and one skate. It should also be one classic and one skate interval start and then 1 classic masstat and 1 skating masstart. And then the final climb. That would be balanced.

Yes I also doesn’t like the chasing starts. It’s often too random when you get in a good group or not and often we see people doing a good race for then to lose the whole advantage in the chasing start because the others behind can work together.

 

[dobrien]

Such a bummer Ebba is in such a deep hole already; unless Jessie cracks completely at some point or someone else has been sitting on some huge form, Ebba was the only skier who looked like giving Diggins a battle for the overall.

 

[dobrien]

I agree it should be one classic and one skate. It should also be one classic and one skate interval start and then 1 classic masstat and 1 skating masstart. And then the final climb. That would be balanced.

Yes I also doesn’t like the chasing starts. It’s often too random when you get in a good group or not and often we see people doing a good race for then to lose the whole advantage in the chasing start because the others behind can work together.

Totally agree with this; either make it another individual start or a mass start even. The pursuit so often punishes a person who has a great first day or two but finds themselves alone against a group on the last day. I guess the only way to look at tomorrow positively would be it might afford Kerttu a chance bleed 15 seconds on purpose (ie, not going all out into the red zone) and then attempt to latch onto the Diggins freight train.

 

[BullsFan22]

When the sprints are in Toblach and Davos it makes sense to have them in skate, especially the Davos one. I’ve read in Norwegian media that the courses in Davos and Toblach are deemed to be less suitable for classic sprint.
Davos would’ve been done double poling and with stupid running on blank skis up that one hill if they put a technique zone. The Toblach course could work in classic with technique zones.

It’s not about the venue, it’s about having a diverse set of races and FIS is moving away from classic races and they’ve already ditched the skiathlon, in favor of skate sprints, mass starts and short distance races.

Look at the races in the early years of the tour.

Now, the Davos sprint course is not suited for classic, even with two laps (which it always is, at least when they changed the course), there would be too much double pole, but then they should have one individual classic race and a skate handicap pursuit, or vice versa. Don’t know if the pursuit this year is based on the results of the sprint or the entire tour up to that point.

 

[BullsFan22]

Such a bummer Ebba is in such a deep hole already; unless Jessie cracks completely at some point or someone else has been sitting on some huge form, Ebba was the only skier who looked like giving Diggins a battle for the overall.

Looks like Ebba had bad skis, plus she had to deal with Covid. She’ll need to motor tomorrow (if she can) and hope to just keep improving as the tour goes on, she needed to be in the top 3 today (hardly a tall order for her) but with skis and bad form, not happening.

I could be wrong, but I think Karlsson will implode at some stage, she’s still relatively inconsistent.

The only weak spot right now for Carl is the Alpe Cermis, one would think. I hope she can somehow win this tour. That would be a pleasant result.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Such a bummer Ebba is in such a deep hole already; unless Jessie cracks completely at some point or someone else has been sitting on some huge form, Ebba was the only skier who looked like giving Diggins a battle for the overall.

It’s not at all over. Ebba has been sick and I think the Swedish girls had questionable skis today. I think she will grow stronger into the tour. Tomorrow she starts 1:28 behind, but she has a lot of strong girls just ahead of her and she will get some help, while Diggins will be more or less on her own, depending on what Carl does. I will be surprised if Ebba doesn’t catch enough time to be less than 1 minute behind after tomorrow.

Then there is a sprint in Davos that benefits Diggins, but Ebba should have a fair chance to catch up that loss on the chasing start, so Davos turns out to be status quo. If Ebba is around 1 minute behind before Val di Fiemme it’s still very open. I think Ebba can take up to 45s on the final climb and she should normally be stronger than Diggins in the classic mass start in Val di Fiemme where Diggins often struggle. But she’s of course much better in classic this year.

Don’t know if the pursuit this year is based on the results of the sprint or the entire tour up to that point.

it’s based only on the sprint.

 

[dobrien]

Looks like Ebba had bad skis, plus she had to deal with Covid. She’ll need to motor tomorrow (if she can) and hope to just keep improving as the tour goes on, she needed to be in the top 3 today (hardly a tall order for her) but with skis and bad form, not happening.

I could be wrong, but I think Karlsson will implode at some stage, she’s still relatively inconsistent.

The only weak spot right now for Carl is the Alpe Cermis, one would think. I hope she can somehow win this tour. That would be a pleasant result.

Yeah, Ebba just had the worst possible luck to start the Tour; even coming good that's a big hole to climb out of.

Agree about Frida; she has not looked good hardly at all this season.

If Victoria Carl won the overall I might die and go to ski fan heaven; that would be amazing. Can't see her getting past the Alpe but man would that be cool.

 

[Mayomaniac]

It’s not about the venue, it’s about having a diverse set of races and FIS is moving away from classic races and they’ve already ditched the skiathlon, in favor of skate sprints, mass starts and short distance races.

Look at the races in the early years of the tour.

Now, the Davos sprint course is not suited for classic, even with two laps (which it always is, at least when they changed the course), there would be too much double pole, but then they should have one individual classic race and a skate handicap pursuit, or vice versa. Don’t know if the pursuit this year is based on the results of the sprint or the entire tour up to that point.

The reason why the watered down all formats dropped out at the last minute, so maybe they'll rethink stuff.
Also, are they using real pursuit rules or the weird ruleset they had during the last few years when only your pursuit skiing time counted for the gc?

 

[Mayomaniac]

When the sprints are in Toblach and Davos it makes sense to have them in skate, especially the Davos one. I’ve read in Norwegian media that the courses in Davos and Toblach are deemed to be less suitable for classic sprint.
Davos would’ve been done double poling and with stupid running on blank skis up that one hill if they put a technique zone. The Toblach course could work in classic with technique zones.

In Toblach you have to classic stride on the steep climb over the nordic arena. Make a technique zone over the other longer climb and eliminate the useless short one at the end and we're good.

 

[BullsFan22]

In Toblach you have to classic stride on the steep climb over the nordic arena. Make a technique zone over the other longer climb and eliminate the useless short one at the end and we're good.

Or simply say, this is a classic race, we race with classic skis, kick wax, and classic poles. Don’t like it? Don’t race it.

 

[OJRvE]

Swedes talking about bad skis, but probably just lack of form from Andersson and Karlsson. The female sprinters did just fine.

Ebba did not complain about the skis. She said she felt awful and basically blamed her recent infection.

Frida said her body felt better than in Trondheim and that she perhaps put on too much grip wax. Looking at the split times she was far down compared to her teammates in the glide section.

Sprint girls and national coach said the skis must have been bad because the team result was not good enough, which is a questionable conclusion. I say sprint girls performed as expected or slightly worse. Ebbs performed bad because her infection. And Frida was a mix of bad skis and not being in top condition.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Ebba did not complain about the skis. She said she felt awful and basically blamed her recent infection.

Frida said her body felt better than in Trondheim and that she perhaps put on too much grip wax. Looking at the split times she was far down compared to her teammates in the glide section.

Sprint girls and national coach said the skis must have been bad because the team result was not good enough, which is a questionable conclusion. I say sprint girls performed as expected or slightly worse. Ebbs performed bad because her infection. And Frida was a mix of bad skis and not being in top condition.

Ok, Swiss TV just reported that the Swedes said that they had bad skis, so thanks for clarifications.
Yeah, the result by the sprint girls seems to be in line with what one expected and Karlsson is still improving.

 

[Sciatic]

I was standing near some Finns early on the stadium climb, they were all in on Krista and Kerttu.

I like Skistad, but her diagonal stride is horrible to watch. Almost enough hip rotation to throw a roundhouse kick.

My father likes Karlsson and Sundling, for rather obvious reasons.

Diggins went deep, not just Diggins deep, people were actually worried about her at the finish. Nice gesture by Niskanen, helping her out of her skis.

Thanks for being our on-the-scene reporter!

 

[Sciatic]

Honestly, with how good skin skis are now it might be worth exploring getting rid of grip waxing altogether. I realize this may sound like blasphemy but it's worth brainstorming 'outside the box' solutions IMHO; moving forward I believe simplifying and reducing the costs/complications/variability of waxing would be a goal that could pay great dividends.

Changes in culture/tradition are always hard but it seems clear to me at least that the amount of money spent on the esoterica of ski waxing is going to be increasingly difficult to sustain. Skins (or zeroes in the right conditions) may not be as good as a 'perfectly' waxed pair of regular classic skis, but their behavior is consistent and it's a vastly simplified solution. Instead of asking for a tiny bit more grip, skiers come up through the ranks understanding they need to learn how to ski the skis they have. And if you just can't get them working, just gotta be really good at the herringbone... Of course there would be teething issues but that's true of any change

Just thinking out loud; again, i'm no utopian but I think it's worth throwing the ideas out there. Whether FIS or the ski federations would ever entertain something like this is another matter entirely of course.

I do not know for sure, but aren’t companies like Swix, ToKo, etc sources of $$ support for teams and the sport? Doubt they’d be pleased with eliminating waxing (or grip waxing) altogether?

 

[Mayomaniac]

De Fa & Graz are dropping out because they are sick or not recovered from sickness. Hellweger dropping out when you still have another freestyle sprint to come in 2 days because he wants to prepare for the sprints after the Tour is a bit of a weird thing to me. He should wait until after the Davos sprint.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Hellweger dropping out when you still have another freestyle sprint to come in 2 days because he wants to prepare for the sprints after the Tour is a bit of a weird thing to me. He should wait until after the Davos sprint.

I can imagine Cramer putting some pressure on him to drop out as he didn’t make the original time limit and therefore doesn’t “deserve” to continue. Would be in line with the heavy criticism from Cramer against FIS for softing the rules.

 

[Mayomaniac]

I can imagine Cramer putting some pressure on him to drop out as he didn’t make the original time limit and therefore doesn’t “deserve” to continue. Would be in line with the heavy criticism from Cramer against FIS for softing the rules.

I mean, it was some bs to change the rules at the last minute, the Italians and the Swiss were not amused (also the Norwegians).

 

[Mayomaniac]

Schumacher with clearly the worst skis in the chasing group.
Then again, the American coaches are glorified cheerleaders, all you her from them is "come on (insert name), keep pushing".

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Then again, the American coaches are glorified cheerleaders, all you her from them is "come on (insert name), keep pushing".

Its not like Norwegian, Swedish and British (the ones I can understand) coaches are bringing a lot more than that. In individual races the coaches can give feedback on the times and position, but on a day like today giving cheap optimistic screams is basically everything they can do.

 

[dobrien]

Schumacher with clearly the worst skis in the chasing group.
Then again, the American coaches are glorified cheerleaders, all you her from them is "come on (insert name), keep pushing".

As opposed to the other coaches quoting...Shakespeare?

Edit: ditto what Eddy said.

 

[BullsFan22]

Schumacher with clearly the worst skis in the chasing group.
Then again, the American coaches are glorified cheerleaders, all you her from them is "come on (insert name), keep pushing".

Because the USST coaches are far from being experts, plus it’s the club coaches that are responsible for the success of the skiers. They are only there for moral support, waxing and logistics.