"Not less than the men"

[Dr. Maserati]

If you introduce a minimum wage above the economic value these riders bring to the team, they just won't get hired, and riders trying to prove their worth would be banned from offering their services for free.

Women's cycling has an awful lot of economic development to go before it could bear that kind of regulation. The finances of most teams are precarious already. Introduce this at any sort of level where it actually has an effect vs the status quo, and you'd instantly push several teams over the edge.

Both yourself & LS bring up good points.

It is a 'chicken & egg' dilemma - put in rules of finance and a lot of teams could fold. Keep it the same way and nothing will change.

I have always favored that as part of the licence process, WorldTour teams should also have a womens (or U23) team and any event looking for WorldTour or even UCI status should also include an event for women.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It seems rather counter-productive to introduce a minimum wage with the stated aim of increasingly professionalism, but then accepting it will put lots of professional teams out of business and force riders in to riding in national teams, likely unpaid.

Yes. It's swings and roundabouts.

The stated aim of introducing things like the minimum wage is all well and idealistic, and perhaps I let myself get carried away in it before considering the likely implications of it.

I understand why they want it, and jumped in enthusiastically in support, but upon further reflection the drawbacks are quite glaring and will only exacerbate the already clear haves-have nots divide. So idealistic me is all in favour, pragmatic me is much more cautious.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Yes. It's swings and roundabouts.

The stated aim of introducing things like the minimum wage is all well and idealistic, and perhaps I let myself get carried away in it before considering the likely implications of it.

I understand why they want it, and jumped in enthusiastically in support, but upon further reflection the drawbacks are quite glaring and will only exacerbate the already clear haves-have nots divide. So idealistic me is all in favour, pragmatic me is much more cautious.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone thoughtfully reconsider on this forum before. How wonderful.

Obviously, you'd never catch me doing that.

 

[ramjambunath]

Hence why I said that's the theory.

A lot of races pad out the startlist with national teams so I guess that would be one way to tide over if many teams hit the wall; also there are quite a few half decent teams without UCI classification. A lot of riders have those supplementary jobs that aren't really jobs - the Italian prison service has done plenty in that respect with the Fiamme Azzurre, hence why you'll see Tatiana Guderzo in particular in uniform when not cycling a lot. It's not all that different from the way the wintersports work in these areas I guess, but obviously there aren't enough places in these schemes to go around, cycling isn't like wintersports where six or seven people makes for a pretty decent team (per nation). There are an awful lot of women cyclists in Italy.

If I understood this bit correctly, they are namesake jobs right? It's actually a very decent way to keep struggling athletes afloat, I know that all of the archery team here is on the payroll either of the govt or public sector enterprises. But that's all it does though keeps them afloat. Also, I don't think given the current European economy public sector jobs will be available for athletes, so basically they'll have to look for private sector companies to sponsor them.

 

[Irish2009]

Like i said earlier it's a matter of ratings. If no one is watching the events no one will invest. A marketing job needs to be done on womens cycling by the UCI. If people watch an event sponsors will invest, and the event and riders can become more professional, it's that simple. It would be great to see all the pro tour teams being required to have a womens team and organisers of the top events having womens versions.

 

[brollebol]

At least female cycling isn't as laughable as women's football (the world championships came close though). I believe the level of competitiveness should rise, before wages go up. This would scare away a lot of companies. Instead the women should use races such as the WC, that has world wide exposure, to show what they can do. They failed horribly though and that's a damn shame, because I remember the Olympic Road Race and that was fantastic.

 

[meandmygitane]

Like i said earlier it's a matter of ratings. If no one is watching the events no one will invest. A marketing job needs to be done on womens cycling by the UCI. If people watch an event sponsors will invest, and the event and riders can become more professional, it's that simple. It would be great to see all the pro tour teams being required to have a womens team and organisers of the top events having womens versions.

But can you really force that change from up-to-down? Shouldn't it be done from bottom-up?

Isn't it up to the riders and teams who should make the racing interesting enough so that people will watch it?

What good is it if no one watches? Pro sport is for watching (=entertainment) and amateur sport is for doing. So why should there be pro teams if no one is watching?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

But can you really force that change from up-to-down? Shouldn't it be done from bottom-up?

Isn't it up to the riders and teams who should make the racing interesting enough so that people will watch it?

What good is it if no one watches? Pro sport is for watching (=entertainment) and amateur sport is for doing. So why should there be pro teams if no one is watching?

No - it needs a top down approach.

Giro Donne & Flanders this year were both exciting. But if other races are not broadcast or showcased then how would we know if a race was exciting?

Sponsors invest in teams that provide exposure - if womens cycling is not showcased then it limits that value for sponsors.

 

[Irish2009]

The UCI is the ultimate in promoting the sport. If it wants it can introduce rules overnight!!! It may help as a start to get promoters to promote a womens version (like flanders). This may introduce more spectators to the womens side of the sport and increase its popularity, this in turn will increase revenue coming into the womens side of the sport. Also if the pro tour teams were made have a womens team it would increase thier chances of exposure and bring in more sponsors. As for womens racing not being entertaining, please dont judge it on the worlds, many womens races I have watched have been brilliant entertainment.

 

[Boeing]

I think she is trying to say that wemon are equal to men and thus deserve equal pay rather than wemons cycling is equal to mens. Obviously this is not economically viable so it should not happen because there would be no wemons cycling if wemon had equal pay to men. Not a sexist just a realist.

Her sentiment that a woman working just as hard as a man deserves equal pay is correct but only possible in utopia. A minimum wage for wemons cycling would be a good idea though.

For work performed on or after July 24, 2009, the federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour

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[meandmygitane]

No - it needs a top down approach.

Giro Donne & Flanders this year were both exciting. But if other races are not broadcast or showcased then how would we know if a race was exciting?

Sponsors invest in teams that provide exposure - if womens cycling is not showcased then it limits that value for sponsors.

Sounds to me it is up to broadcasting companies then (which was something of my point)? I don't see how a lot of pro teams could help getting viewers/sponsors but I see how a lot of viewers can get sponsors and pro teams.

This is my idea how the evolution of pro sports is:
Good talent -> Interesting races -> viewers -> sponsors -> pro teams

If the talent and the races is there then it's reaching the viewers that is the problem, not the last two.

Maybe UCI should do something on the media side of things, like internet based TV-coverage of races? McQuaid commentating cycling on a internet stream funded by Ads or subscription or something

 

[Cycle Chic]

Actually I think the relative lack of depth in women's cycling can work in its favour, in terms of excitement. I happened to see the Plouay races live last year, and the women's race was 1000x more exciting than the men's (admittedly, this was partly because the men were having a tantrum about the race being lengthened and neutralised a large proportion of the race). The men's race ended in a mass sprint, whilst Pooley won the women's race solo after repeatedly forcing the pace on the main climb.

I agree - the Plouay and Giro Donne were exciting - I had to find them online to watch.

I would have thought it was very male friendly tv viewing - as most men could relate to that level of riding !! oh come on !! male club riders couldnt possibly keep up with Vos or Pooley.

 

[Boeing]

thats right

 

[MacRoadie]

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[ElChingon]

What the women want is what any developing sport wants, more exposure, more money, more everything! But like most high level sports the base years and time must be put in to gain the fan base. I still remember watching NBA games start on TV at 11:30 PM! Now they're on prime time and on holiday's etc.

So the women need to go out and get more talent on their teams which means possibly plucking other sports of their quality athletes, not saying they don't have any now just that they need more to raise the bar even higher to gain the fan base of seeing great athletes compete. Till then yes they will still be 2nd tier, sorry but its the same fate all developing sports are going through, till they reach a pinnacle they're 2nd tier.

Heck even men's cycling is 2nd if not 3rd tier in the USA and you don't hear the USA based riders whining about having to move to Europe to be considered a viable professional sportsman, again I'm not saying the conti USA riders are not professional just that they don't get the credit.

Yes, women's volleyball is on the map and they went about it in a sexist way but hey they're on the map aren't they, so basically they did what they had to do and are now earning the bucks for it. Their games are exciting to watch (sporting aspect) and of course aesthetically pleasing as well to me at least. Woman's basketball is also hitting the same wall as woman's cycling, and are even forced on us but no one watches. Yet, the yearly Lingerie bowl gets more spectators come Super Bowl time than either of womens cycling or basketball, figure that one out

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sounds to me it is up to broadcasting companies then (which was something of my point)? I don't see how a lot of pro teams could help getting viewers/sponsors but I see how a lot of viewers can get sponsors and pro teams.

This is my idea how the evolution of pro sports is:
Good talent -> Interesting races -> viewers -> sponsors -> pro teams

If the talent and the races is there then it's reaching the viewers that is the problem, not the last two.

Maybe UCI should do something on the media side of things, like internet based TV-coverage of races? McQuaid commentating cycling on a internet stream funded by Ads or subscription or something

Thats part of the difficulty.
The races that are there are (by in large) interesting - the difficulty is there is not enough races.

More races allow for more exposure.
(It does not necessarily need to be TV based, although that would be ideal.)

 

[Libertine Seguros]

But can you really force that change from up-to-down? Shouldn't it be done from bottom-up?

Isn't it up to the riders and teams who should make the racing interesting enough so that people will watch it?

What good is it if no one watches? Pro sport is for watching (=entertainment) and amateur sport is for doing. So why should there be pro teams if no one is watching?

But if it isn't being broadcast, it can't be watched. It needs somebody to broadcast it in order for people to decide whether it's interesting enough for them to watch it. The Giro Donne coverage has increased massively from ten minute summaries in '08 and '09 to half an hour to 45 minutes now, so obviously something is going right.

 

[meandmygitane]

But if it isn't being broadcast, it can't be watched. It needs somebody to broadcast it in order for people to decide whether it's interesting enough for them to watch it. The Giro Donne coverage has increased massively from ten minute summaries in '08 and '09 to half an hour to 45 minutes now, so obviously something is going right.

Agreed, but my post was that women cycling needs something else than a lot of Pro teams that UCI forces upon existing male teams. It was that top-down approach I meant (talent pool->races->viewers/coverage->sponsors->pro teams) where pro teams are the top of the "food chain".

So I agree with you, basically.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

What the women want is what any developing sport wants, more exposure, more money, more everything! But like most high level sports the base years and time must be put in to gain the fan base. I still remember watching NBA games start on TV at 11:30 PM! Now they're on prime time and on holiday's etc.

So the women need to go out and get more talent on their teams which means possibly plucking other sports of their quality athletes, not saying they don't have any now just that they need more to raise the bar even higher to gain the fan base of seeing great athletes compete. Till then yes they will still be 2nd tier, sorry but its the same fate all developing sports are going through, till they reach a pinnacle they're 2nd tier.

Heck even men's cycling is 2nd if not 3rd tier in the USA and you don't hear the USA based riders whining about having to move to Europe to be considered a viable professional sportsman, again I'm not saying the conti USA riders are not professional just that they don't get the credit.

Yes, women's volleyball is on the map and they went about it in a sexist way but hey they're on the map aren't they, so basically they did what they had to do and are now earning the bucks for it. Their games are exciting to watch (sporting aspect) and of course aesthetically pleasing as well to me at least. Woman's basketball is also hitting the same wall as woman's cycling, and are even forced on us but no one watches. Yet, the yearly Lingerie bowl gets more spectators come Super Bowl time than either of womens cycling or basketball, figure that one out

Don't the 2 highlight statements contradict each other?

I think cycling (mens or womens) does not follow the typical 'sports fan' following of other team sports.
In Basketball, baseball, football (whatever code) fans usually support one team.
In cycling people watch races as opposed to support teams, so I think it requires more exposure to these races.

 

[blutto]

the winner of the female elite pro itt would've finished 32nd in the junior man itt field, that's how pathetic female cycling/sports truly is.

....here is what is pathetic....a sport that has a long long history that somehow forgot to get a significant part of the general population involved....think how happy the bike industry would be, or the various organizing institutions if women were more involved...

..and sure, women's volleyball took the low road to reach a market but lets look at the success of something closer to home...something that makes the road racing scene look ( in terms of organizational skill, participation levels ), well, pathetic....and guess what, they have lots of women in the mix....that something is triathalon...heck that sport didn't even exist a few decades ago and look where they are now...


Cheers


blutto

 

[Freddythefrog]

I want to run a cake shop !

Minimum wage ? Now I had a chat to my mate Barry. He runs a small bakery and together with his missus he has a couple of youngsters help him part time and one guy full time. He pays the youngsters the minimum wage, then the full time guy a bit more. If the business isn’t there he tries to cut the hours of the youngsters, but mainly he or his missus drop their hours.

I would like to run a cake/coffee shop. I need a dolly bird at the counter and another 2 to do the serving. Damn, I haven’t got the money to get it going. I know, stuff the minimum wage. There are loads of kids unemployed, I am sure I can find a couple with fine bodies who will do it for less than the minimum wage. That’s the way to go. I will claim that if it wasn’t for me being so kind hearted to give them a work experience placement, they would be unemployed and there would be no real nice cake shop on the high street, so really I am doing everybody a favour. Punters get cheap cakes served by girls with low tops and high skirts. Girls get a sort of wage, I will pay 25% of the minimum wage and to make up, they can eat all the cakes in store each day they want, but no taking any home. And I get my cake shop and my profits, when I really shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near the High street to exploit and corrupt. It was to stop ba* * * * * s like me, that society legislated. Can’t pay the minimum wage – don’t employ.

I know – I can’t run a cake shop so I’ll run a women’s cycle team. Problem solved ! There’s loads of people to back me not paying the minimum wage. Look at them all on cyclingnews.com. Wow, it was great coming here. Reality suspended.

Am I reading this thread right ! "Not less than the men" was polite code for idiots – Let me translate - sort out this sport – where are we – back in the Victorian era – “giv a nice girl a shilling kind sir” ? The women’s scene has been haemorrhaging events and teams in recent years. In fact the very well publicised men's drugs problems and the recession have taken more of a toll on the women's scene than that of the men! (You want me to link my female only products with women's cycle racing - what like Lance Armstrong and that crazy Floyd Landis and the other guy with twins and dogs and stuff and the EPO scandal and growth hormones and bottles of blood in fridges - are you mad!)

Organic growth is leading nowhere. It is over 20 years ago since Longo stood on the Champs Elyse in a matching yellow top with Roach. [Run a thread on equal status to both winners of the Tour de France – and equal prize money and just see the Neanderthals hit the keyboard.] We are going backwards. Plan A does not work. The media is rigged.

No other way – (i) UCI pro-tour teams – must have a women’s team. (ii) Events – must have a women’s event. As many say, Flanders, Fleche and Plouay all do it and it makes the whole experience far better. “Can’t” is just an excuse for “don’t want to”. The only people who can solve the problem are the UCI.

 

[Freddythefrog]

Triathlon

....here is what is pathetic....a sport that has a long long history that somehow forgot to get a significant part of the general population involved....think how happy the bike industry would be, or the various organizing institutions if women were more involved...

..and sure, women's volleyball took the low road to reach a market but lets look at the success of something closer to home...something that makes the road racing scene look ( in terms of organizational skill, participation levels ), well, pathetic....and guess what, they have lots of women in the mix....that something is triathalon...heck that sport didn't even exist a few decades ago and look where they are now...Cheers
blutto

Not sure where they are now, but certainly 15 years ago, some corporate sponsors loved triathlon because it ticked the boxes - no gender discrimination at any point. This resulted in EQUAL PRIZEMONEY MALE FEMALE, in a way few other sports could match. Hawaii Iron man , World Triathlon series ? Any offers for current practise ?

 

[ustabe]

I think she is trying to say that wemon are equal to men and thus deserve equal pay rather than wemons cycling is equal to mens.

"Wemon?" Is that a new usage for naming the "wo-persons" of our species?

 

[Mambo95]

But if it isn't being broadcast, it can't be watched. It needs somebody to broadcast it in order for people to decide whether it's interesting enough for them to watch it. The Giro Donne coverage has increased massively from ten minute summaries in '08 and '09 to half an hour to 45 minutes now, so obviously something is going right.

Yet the persist in scheduling it against the Tour de France. They're really not helping themselves. They should move it to August or June and they'd stand a chance.

 

[Maxiton]

Some women's races are exciting. Depends on the course and the team strategy. One thing's for sure: any woman in the pro peloton could drop any man on this forum. Guaranteed. That goes especially for you, Ryo.

If you don't like women's sports, don't watch. Simple. Though personally, I'd rather watch women compete in a hard fought race than men.

who cares about those pictures. first of all in cycling suit you don't see anything and 2nd of all I would rather watch porn if I want to see hot chicks that would turn me on

Wait a sec . . . can't see anything in a cycling suit . . . porn . . .? I obviously haven't made myself clear, so let me put it a different way:

I'd rather watch women compete in a hard fought race than men.

What, wait, I said that the first time, didn't I? I suggest that there is pleasure to to be found in watching female athletes compete and your response is "Porn or nothing." That says all there is to say about how you feel, and what you think women are good for. I'm pretty sure most men don't agree. I sure don't.

Femininity has nothing to do with being uncoordinated and weak, beaten down and degraded. It has everything to do with being healthy and strong and female, and athletic, too, and it's sexy as hell.

And besides the sexy part there is the sporting part, which is often just as compelling as the men's. So you might want to take your mind away from porn for a minute and spend some time with female athletes.

Wow so you are saying we should watch woman cycling because we can look at pretty girls. Well that's the way to get woman cycling to a higher level, to treat them like sex objects on a bike...

Anyway, I couldn't care less about woman cycling. Sad, but true.

See above, Einstein.