NovitzkyÂ’s European vacation

[BotanyBay]

I read Darryl Webster here say that LeMond was such a nice guy and a gentleman. That has not been what I have seen, sometimes yes sometimes no.

Since Armstrong and Lemond are embroiled in a long-running feud, it's hard for us outsiders to distinguish ego-driven actions from fact-driven ones. I'm sure both parties have crossed the boundaries at times. Feuds are like that.

I think we know where Lemond stands. Some cycling stars younger than he have called him asking for advice, think he was down/cool with the doping Omerta. He wasn't, and hung them out to dry. Some people think that means he's a ***. Others think he's just being honest. It's just as easy to believe (I suppose) that he does it with a blind hatred for his "replacement" as America's greatest cycling hero. It's also easy to believe that he shouldn't have to "pass the baton" to a guy who did it dishonestly. No doubt the transition has cost Lemond some money (lawsuit or not). I guess we'll never really know. You have to develop your own gut-feel for the motivation / truth.

 

[BotanyBay]

Popo's case now seems VERY related to Lance's case:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-police-meet-with-novitzky-in-lyon

 

[jimmypop]

Since Armstrong and Lemond are embroiled in a long-running feud, it's hard for us outsiders to distinguish ego-driven actions from fact-driven ones. I'm sure both parties have crossed the boundaries at times. Feuds are like that.

It's folly to believe that flicker has actually interacted with LeMond. Keep in mind that flicker also thinks Armstrong is a stand-up guy, if that colors your interpretation of his character judgement.

 

[flicker]

It's folly to believe that flicker has actually interacted with LeMond. Keep in mind that flicker also thinks Armstrong is a stand-up guy, if that colors your interpretation of his character judgement.

I have a great respect for both Greg and Lance for their accomplishments.
As for moral fiber on the two I would guess most on this forum would be more knowledgeable.

I could never say who is the best rider. Everything i know about LeMond comes from the sidelines. Probably a lot closer than most of Gregs' fan-bois on the forum judging from their extreme man-crush with him. i am very sorry i have painted a different picture of Greg then people here feel comfortable with. I am from Northern California where Greg got his start in racing, and as Nevada is close Bob LeMond still runs his business.

As for Lance I like his personality. He embodies the spirit and great traditions of European Professional Cycling just as Greg LeMond honored the traditions of cycling during his professional career.

Really, how long was Planet Armstrong a feature on Euro-Sport?

 

[BotanyBay]

It's folly to believe that flicker has actually interacted with LeMond. Keep in mind that flicker also thinks Armstrong is a stand-up guy, if that colors your interpretation of his character judgement.

Thanks. I'm aware of the various fanboyz. His opinion of Lemond did not influence me one bit.

My own racing background has me connected not directly to Greg, but to MANY people who are actually personal friends of his. He has few enemies.

Lance flies mostly solo in that regard. Greg has burned very few bridges, while Lance seems to plant the charges even before he meets people.

 

[flicker]

Thanks. I'm aware of the various fanboyz. His opinion of Lemond did not influence me one bit.

My own racing background has me connected not directly to Greg, but to MANY people who are actually personal friends of his. He has few enemies.

Lance flies mostly solo in that regard. Greg has burned very few bridges, while Lance seems to plant the charges even before he meets people.

The fire that burns twice as bright lasts half as long. I always thought that about Greg and the length of his career.

My guess from the sidelines here and I am way way out in the bleachers is that there is a knitch here in Nor-Cal.

Many many framebuilders here in Northern California would be happy to build a product for LeMond and have his name on their frames. Sponsoring a racing team here would be fabulous for Greg and the sport.

Many many people love Greg here and ride his bikes. What is amazing to me is how clean his bikes are and how well and lovinly taken care of people are with his product. I guess people just love Greg and that is great for them. One of his signed yellow jerseys hangs in the bike shop in my town, prominantley displayed.

 

[BotanyBay]

The fire that burns twice as bright lasts half as long. I always thought that about Greg and the length of his career.

My guess from the sidelines here and I am way way out in the bleachers is that there is a knitch here in Nor-Cal.

Many many framebuilders here in Northern California would be happy to build a product for LeMond and have his name on their frames. Sponsoring a racing team here would be fabulous for Greg and the sport.

Many many people love Greg here and ride his bikes. What is amazing to me is how clean his bikes are and how well and lovinly taken care of people are with his product. I guess people just love Greg and that is great for them. One of his signed yellow jerseys hangs in the bike shop in my town, prominantley displayed.

In 30 years of being aware of the man, I know many who know him personally. I met him myself once in Palm Springs about 24 years ago. Other than a dispute with his Dad and the situations with Floyd and Lance, I've literally never heard anyone who knew him, speak poorly of him. In contrast, of all the people I know who've had dealings with Lance, they ALL have spoken poorly of him. Two of those people report being literally shoved by him during the race. His reputation as a junior and young senior was that of "complete arsehole". Seemed to enjoy the misfortune of others.

I put all of that brashness aside when he recovered from Cancer and was delighted to see him win the TDF more than once. I even bought his book (and loved it). But I guess my connections to a wide network (and my propensity to read and absorb) brought me back the other way again.

 

[flicker]

In 30 years of being aware of the man, I know many who know him personally. I met him myself once in Palm Springs about 24 years ago. Other than a dispute with his Dad and the situations with Floyd and Lance, I've literally never heard anyone who knew him, speak poorly of him. In contrast, of all the people I know who've had dealings with Lance, they ALL have spoken poorly of him. Two of those people report being literally shoved by him during the race. His reputation as a junior and young senior was that of "complete arsehole". Seemed to enjoy the misfortune of others.

I put all of that brashness aside when he recovered from Cancer and was delighted to see him win the TDF more than once. I even bought his book (and loved it). But I guess my connections to a wide network (and my propensity to read and absorb) brought me back the other way again.

My main issue with LeMond are the heinous Scott bar extentions he had put on his tour bikes, the ridiculous dark glasses and helmets he wore.

For that LeMond deserves a lifetime ban from cycling alone.


I mean Europe and Africa have the best style and designers in the World.

Why could Greg not have used them? I lie awake at night thinking of my countryman wearing that nerdy stuff.

By the way LeMond is a Scot name. Lemond is a French name.

Thank you for the correct spelling, it made my day.

 

[Oldman]

My main issue with LeMond are the heinous Scott bar extentions he had put on his tour bikes, the ridiculous dark glasses and helmets he wore.

For that LeMond deserves a lifetime ban from cycling alone.


I mean Europe and Africa have the best style and designers in the World.

Why could Greg not have used them? I lie awake at night thinking of my countryman wearing that nerdy stuff.

By the way LeMond is a Scot name. Lemond is a French name.

Thank you for the correct spelling, it made my day.

Don't forget the stabilizer "struts" they had to put on. Pricelessly bad design and an embarrassement to endorse.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I'll go on record and say that I do not relish in his demise at all. I might crack a few jokes about him every now and then, but this is a sad story, not a "juicy" one. I think he's grown up learning how to isolate and alienate people. He counts very few people as true friends, and he's burned a lot of people along his path to the top. I don't view him as the Devil. I view him as being in personal need of hitting bottom. I think he's carrying a lot of baggage. I hope he finally reaches the point at which he's willing to get off of this crazy ride he's been taking everyone on.

That monologue will only get my well bought tears if you (and the other sycophants of Lance) can acknowledge that he and his ilk have driven clean talent out of the sport.

That's the tragedy of the situation, and the situation of doping in general.

The cheaters end up shoving clean talent out of the sport.

Lance's story isn't sad. It IS tragic, but he's brought that upon himself...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

My main issue with LeMond are the heinous Scott bar extentions he had put on his tour bikes,.

Yeah, because aerodynamics have been proven to be useless in cycling...

If looking like a dork counted towards an expulsion, there'd be a lot more riders on the sidelines. The misplaced adherence to the 'superman' position for one...

 

[BotanyBay]

My main issue with LeMond are the heinous Scott bar extentions he had put on his tour bikes, the ridiculous dark glasses and helmets he wore.

Lemond took product endorsement to a new level in cycling. Before him, many riders wore certain shoes just for the shoes. In contrast, Lemond hired an agent and negotiated serious endorsement deals. If he hadn't done his deal with Oakley (who'd previously made motorcycle goggles), Armstrong wouldn't have been able to keep his health insurance after he was diagnosed with cancer and sacked by Cofidis.

 

[flicker]

Lemond took product endorsement to a new level in cycling. Before him, many riders wore certain shoes just for the shoes. In contrast, Lemond hired an agent and negotiated serious endorsement deals. If he hadn't done his deal with Oakley (who'd previously made motorcycle goggles), Armstrong wouldn't have been able to keep his health insurance after he was diagnosed with cancer and sacked by Cofidis.

Sorry i am an Italian type guy I still like Italian bikes and Campi. The front aero clip-ons made sense but the extensions on the drops were the dumbest looking things and if someone was on those in a quick descent they look like they could lead to tragedy.

The rest of the outfit LeMond makes sense....for a dung beetle!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Lemond took product endorsement to a new level in cycling. Before him, many riders wore certain shoes just for the shoes. In contrast, Lemond hired an agent and negotiated serious endorsement deals. If he hadn't done his deal with Oakley (who'd previously made motorcycle goggles), Armstrong wouldn't have been able to keep his health insurance after he was diagnosed with cancer and sacked by Cofidis.

That's funny... I remember a DS buddy of mine, who was working in the Euro scene at the time, saying that that GL was REALLY smart with his marketing potential and would even ride with a pile of sh*t on his stem if the money was good.

I'm not saying this to disparage GL, just mentioning it to reiterate how savy he was is the marketing milieu and how he had a big hand in changing how riders were paid. It really used to suck based on other sport salaries.

And don't get me wrong - the aero bars were truly a game-changer. Funny it took that long for someone to figure it out, with the money and legacy of ski racing in Europe one would have thought it would've happened earlier.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Somat I`ve pondered for a long time by thinking about who benifited from Lance`s fraud one group not mentioned is French Tourism ,,I suspect the covorage of Lances TDF years took a lot of US $ to France and its clear that all the GT`s have realy upped there game re TV coverage with a great deal of glorious shots of landacapes and sights...almoat a travel show with a bike race tagged on in some case`s. By implication possibly heavy weights in French business and politics may be involved and I wonder If Novetsky might get "warned off" re some aspects.
The other group goes back a long way..Pat Mc "sold to the higest bidder" is part of a group of peeps who back in the early late 70`s 80`s had big hopes of "selling" the sport to America.
To European bike business`s America was the holy grail..if the sport could be much bigger there the potential for business would possibly dwarf the entire European trade.
Lemond paved the way as the first US rider to have the impact desired and for a time things were good...but after he retired there was a need to supercede him. Step up to the plate, Goldenball.
Not in any way reducing Lances responsibilty here peeps...but a lotta peeps did very well on this puppy..and holding some to account could prove very slippy.

 

[flicker]

Greg was one of the people responsable for the big paychecks in euro cycling.






greg has done a phenomenal job of marketing cycling. If he could mainstream bike racing and bring money into cycling here too it would be great. An individual like Greg as a very American can explain cycling to people in a way they would understand. I hope Lance stays involved to as people are attracted to him. I would much rather listen to Lance but that is just me.

 

[usedtobefast]

My main issue with LeMond are the heinous Scott bar extentions he had put on his tour bikes, the ridiculous dark glasses and helmets he wore.

For that LeMond deserves a lifetime ban from cycling alone.


I mean Europe and Africa have the best style and designers in the World.

Why could Greg not have used them? I lie awake at night thinking of my countryman wearing that nerdy stuff.

By the way LeMond is a Scot name. Lemond is a French name.

Thank you for the correct spelling, it made my day.

really? i guess winning does not matter. some very absurd statements, my friend. i think you must be joking.

 

[flicker]

really? i guess winning does not matter. some very absurd statements, my friend. i think you must be joking.

If you want absurd relive Gregs' testimony at Floyds WADA trial.

On behalf of Greg big winner terrific style on the bike great champion and inventor of clip in pedals, the best invention on the bicycle since the derrallieur.

 

[AussieGoddess]

In 30 years of being aware of the man, I know many who know him personally. I met him myself once in Palm Springs about 24 years ago. Other than a dispute with his Dad and the situations with Floyd and Lance, I've literally never heard anyone who knew him, speak poorly of him. In contrast, of all the people I know who've had dealings with Lance, they ALL have spoken poorly of him. Two of those people report being literally shoved by him during the race. His reputation as a junior and young senior was that of "complete arsehole". Seemed to enjoy the misfortune of others.

I put all of that brashness aside when he recovered from Cancer and was delighted to see him win the TDF more than once. I even bought his book (and loved it). But I guess my connections to a wide network (and my propensity to read and absorb) brought me back the other way again.

But then - you look at Lance's record with cyclists ....

09 TdF he rode (unhappily) with Astana. 9 riders ... LA, AC and 7 others. 2010 LA and JB formed their own team, and all 7 other riders from the 09 TdF team went to Radioshack. As well as how many soigneurs, mechanics and other support staff?

That to me is pretty telling about the loyalty and leadership the guy inspires.

I know he has enemies - but he seems to inspire loyalty from most who rode with him.

 

[TubularBills]

But then - you look at Lance's record with cyclists ....

09 TdF he rode (unhappily) with Astana. 9 riders ... LA, AC and 7 others. 2010 LA and JB formed their own team, and all 7 other riders from the 09 TdF team went to Radioshack. As well as how many soigneurs, mechanics and other support staff?

That to me is pretty telling about the loyalty and leadership the guy inspires.

I know he has enemies - but he seems to inspire loyalty from most who rode with him.

Could be simply the power of cold hard cash from a reliable source (follow the gravy train and as long as you're a 'yes' man, you get paid and assure a future).

remember, Astana had some slow payment problems in the past.

I'd surmise that the riders are loyal to paying the bills.

I think it was RR who said "Armstrong doesn't have friends, he has employees."

 

[flicker]

Could be simply the power of cold hard cash from a reliable source (follow the gravy train and as long as you're a 'yes' man, you get paid and assure a future).

remember, Astana had some slow payment problems in the past.

I'd surmise that the riders are loyal to paying the bills.

I think it was RR who said "Armstrong doesn't have friends, he has employees."

Business means employees, the symbiotic relationship between management and employee, organization/business works.

All this stuff I have heard like nice guy and douce and all the bad words that is unprofessional. Business is business, I respect that with Armstrong and Bruyneel and same with LeMond when he was a gamer.

 

[AussieGoddess]

Could be simply the power of cold hard cash from a reliable source (follow the gravy train and as long as you're a 'yes' man, you get paid and assure a future).

remember, Astana had some slow payment problems in the past.

I'd surmise that the riders are loyal to paying the bills.

I think it was RR who said "Armstrong doesn't have friends, he has employees."

yeh true enough

 

[tubularglue]

Interpol Lyon

http://www.interpol.int/public/icpo/default.asp

"INTERPOL is the world’s largest international police organization, with 188 member countries. Created in 1923, it facilitates cross-border police co-operation, and supports and assists all organizations, authorities and services whose mission is to prevent or combat international crime.

INTERPOL aims to facilitate international police co-operation even where diplomatic relations do not exist between particular countries. Action is taken within the limits of existing laws in different countries and in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

INTERPOL’s constitution prohibits ‘any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character.’ "


" National Central Bureaus
Top

Article 31

In order to further its aims, the Organization needs the constant and active co-operation of its Members, who should do all within their power which is compatible with the legislations of their countries to participate diligently in its activities.

Article 32

In order to ensure the above co-operation, each country shall appoint a body which will serve as the National Central Bureau. It shall ensure liaison with:
(a) The various departments in the country;
(b) Those bodies in other countries serving as National Central Bureaus;
(c)

The Organization's General Secretariat.

Article 33

In the case of those countries where the provisions of Article 32 are inapplicable or do not permit of effective centralized co-operation, the General Secretariat shall decide, with these countries, the most suitable alternative means of co-operation."

http://www2.2space.net/images/upl_newsImage/1278331227.jpg

 

[flicker]

Interpol Lyon

http://www.interpol.int/public/icpo/default.asp

"INTERPOL is the world’s largest international police organization, with 188 member countries. Created in 1923, it facilitates cross-border police co-operation, and supports and assists all organizations, authorities and services whose mission is to prevent or combat international crime.

INTERPOL aims to facilitate international police co-operation even where diplomatic relations do not exist between particular countries. Action is taken within the limits of existing laws in different countries and in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

INTERPOL’s constitution prohibits ‘any intervention or activities of a political, military, religious or racial character.’ "


" National Central Bureaus
Top

Article 31

In order to further its aims, the Organization needs the constant and active co-operation of its Members, who should do all within their power which is compatible with the legislations of their countries to participate diligently in its activities.

Article 32

In order to ensure the above co-operation, each country shall appoint a body which will serve as the National Central Bureau. It shall ensure liaison with:
(a) The various departments in the country;
(b) Those bodies in other countries serving as National Central Bureaus;
(c)

The Organization's General Secretariat.

Article 33

In the case of those countries where the provisions of Article 32 are inapplicable or do not permit of effective centralized co-operation, the General Secretariat shall decide, with these countries, the most suitable alternative means of co-operation."

http://www2.2space.net/images/upl_newsImage/1278331227.jpg

Hey they fight terists? Maybe they can get osama, cause we sure couldn't.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Hey they fight terists? Maybe they can get osama, cause we sure couldn't.

My post rules are thus: add something intelligent; failing that, be amusing.

You're still my man, Flickie (or girl, I'm still not sure)...