Nuclear disaster in Japan and wider Nuclear discussion

[Le breton]

interesting comment not heard before (by me)

David A. Lochbaum of the Union of Concerned Scientists pointed to the fact that pools holding spent fuel rods in the top level of reactor buildings at the Fukushima I complex could release even larger quantities of hazardous substances than a meltdown.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

CNN: And just another fire broke out. We are getting close to 6 meltdowns and INES 7, as predicted some 12 hours ago (sorry for the cynicism)...

Where are you now, Ferminal?

Personally, i think they gave up. No one there anymore. Everybody was running. 50 workers left? No way. I think that´s only told to prevent a panic.

 

[Martin318is]

######################
Note from Mod
######################

For those wondering what I just did, I have pulled out as much as I could of the ongoing and lively Nuclear discussion from the Japanese earthquake thread. This was because the ongoing detailed debate over fine detail regarding the nuclear reactors was flooding the thread and defeating its original purpose.

Please continue the discussion here.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I have been keeping up also with bbc live twitter and newsfeed. Most of it seems to be reasonable and fairly accurate, especially the quoted news on the twitter feed live updated.
The sad part of trying to find good info is that so much on google, etc is a rehash and it is confusing because old mixed with new, as well as terribly sensationalized and headline-grabbing, sometimes just plain incorrect.

Ferminal, thanks for a calm viewpoint. At this point in the disaster insults and harsh politics really don't help much.

 

[Boeing]

CNN: And just another fire broke out. We are getting close to 6 meltdowns and INES 7, as predicted some 12 hours ago (sorry for the cynicism)...

Where are you now, Ferminal?

Personally, i think they gave up. No one there anymore. Everybody was running. 50 workers left? No way. I think that´s only told to prevent a panic.

fallacy of insufficient statistics, fallacy of insufficient sample, fallacy of the lonely fact, generalization from the particular, leaping to a conclusion, hasty induction, law of small numbers, unrepresentative sample, and secundum quid.

 

[Ferminal]

Bad news.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Second_fire_reported_at_unit_4_1603111.html

Second fire reported at unit 4
16 March 2011

The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said that a blaze was spotted in the reactor building of Fukushima Daiichi 4 at 5.45am this morning.

Attempts to extinguish it were reportedly delayed due to high levels of radiation in the area.

The incident is believed to be in the region of a used fuel pond in the upper portion of the reactor building.

Origins?

Tokyo Electric Power Company issued a notice of an explosion at unit 4 at 6am on 15 March. This was followed by the company's confirmation of damage around the fifth floor rooftop area of the reactor building.

On that day, a fire was discovered but investigations concluded it had died down by around 11am.

At present it is not clear whether today's fire is a completely new blaze, or if the fire reported yesterday had flared up again.

Apparently it is under control as of an hour ago:

norishikata
Fire does not appear to be continuing at Unit 4 any longer=TEPCO
1 hour ago

The WHO now has some information on nuclear radiation etc http://www.who.int/en/

The actions proposed by the Government of Japan are in line with the existing recommendations based on public health expertise. The government is asking people living within 20 km of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant to evacuate and those between 20km and 30km away from the plant are asked to stay indoors in unventilated rooms. People living farther away are at lower risk than those who live nearby.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

That was bad grammar. With ignorant americans i meant only those who are "Pro-Nuke" (it comes from translation german-english)...
I can´t believe people still accept a technique which has no answers for the ever increasing nuclear waste (and disasters, and weapons).
OTOH people talk about MAYBE climate change in 50 years AND use this "argument" in favour for more nuclear plants. That is a paradoxical view of things, to say the least...

Americans aren´t that bad. Otherwise i wouldn´t love Football.

So i apologize here, i just "heated" up a little.

Akzeptiert.
Well, at least the good news is alternate energy sources and fuels are being developed. But these are not at the point where nuclear energy can be replaced by them, if that's even possible. To get to that point will take much time and patience. So for the time being, I'm pro-nuke. Eventually, it would be nice if we lived in a world that was none-nuke.

 

[Granville57]

F%@k me, this going from bad to worse.

Workers at Japan's damaged Fukushima Daiichi plant have suspended their operations and been evacuated.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

 

[krebs303]

Now what happens?


Japan abandons stricken nuke plant over radiation
FUKUSHIMA, Japan – Japan suspended operations to prevent a stricken nuclear plant from melting down Wednesday after a surge in radiation made it too dangerous for workers to remain at the facility.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano said work on dousing reactors with water was disrupted by the need to withdraw.

The level of radiation at the plant surged to 1,000 millisieverts early Wednesday before coming down to 800-600 millisieverts. Still, that was far more than the average

"So the workers cannot carry out even minimal work at the plant now," Edano said. "Because of the radiation risk, we are on standby."

 

[usedtobefast]

what happens is... the monster is unleashed. i hope y'all like it.
not so good...

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/

 

[Semper Fidelis]

what happens is... the monster is unleashed. i hope y'all like it.
not so good...

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/

what in the hell is that supposed to mean? Who would like something such as it is?

 

[Ferminal]

The radiation level spiked earlier, but then fell. The workers were only off site for an hour or so (returned at 1140 Local).

(From NHK quoting Edano).

 

[Martin318is]

Not sure if this has a;ready been noted but two of the workers have gone missing.

Article on theage.com.au


Also in the article -

"You are the only ones who can resolve the crisis. Retreat is unthinkable," the Financial Times reported Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan as telling the crew.

which reminds me of the movie K-19 The Widowmaker in a rather horrific way.

 

[BroDeal]

Aurrghh! It is freaking impossible to tell what is going on by reading news articles on the Internet. News gets recycled so the chronology is hard to decipher. I swear a lot of news articles read like they were written using other Internet news articles as sources. It is one big circle jerk.

 

[BroDeal]

which reminds me of the movie K-19 The Widowmaker in a rather horrific way.

We'll know it is really bad when they have hundreds of people each run into the building, do twenty seconds of work, and then get sent straight to the hospital.

 

[scribe]

That situation needs an army of heroes breaking their balls to get something going. We've got no problem running at one another with with weapons in combat. But running from this, to save themselves, when potentially tens to hundreds of thousands of lives swinging in the balance?

 

[Ferminal]

Aurrghh! It is freaking impossible to tell what is going on by reading news articles on the Internet. News gets recycled so the chronology is hard to decipher. I swear a lot of news articles read like they were written using other Internet news articles as sources. It is one big circle jerk.

Yeh I can't even find the source of the Edano statement which says that staff were back working on the cooling process. The news sites are holding stories and headlines for half a day and maybe making small updates without being able to tell.

If I want day old news I'll look at my newspaper.

 

[rhubroma]

That situation needs an army of heroes breaking their balls to get something going. We've got no problem running at one another with with weapons in combat. But running from this, to save themselves, when potentially tens to hundreds of thousands of lives swinging in the balance?

There's a volunteer list I've heard, in case you were looking for something to do heroic.

 

[Rip:30]

the f***?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81374648/

Is this an epic troll?

What do you guys think? It's beyond offensive either way.

 

[rhubroma]

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/81374648/

Is this an epic troll?

What do you guys think? It's beyond offensive either way.

No, it's just beyond.

 

[Spare Tyre]

Akzeptiert.
Well, at least the good news is alternate energy sources and fuels are being developed. But these are not at the point where nuclear energy can be replaced by them, if that's even possible. To get to that point will take much time and patience. So for the time being, I'm pro-nuke. Eventually, it would be nice if we lived in a world that was none-nuke.

An organisation in Australia has demonstrated that it would be possible for Australia to use existing technologies and have its entire grid powered through renewable energies by 2020 if there was the political will to do so. Unfortunately, because everyone is so committed to non-renewable and highly polluting technologies (including nuclear) it's not likely to happen.

http://beyondzeroemissions.org/

 

[Ferminal]

An organisation in Australia has demonstrated that it would be possible for Australia to use existing technologies and have its entire grid powered through renewable energies by 2020 if there was the political will to do so. Unfortunately, because everyone is so committed to non-renewable and highly polluting technologies (including nuclear) it's not likely to happen.

http://beyondzeroemissions.org/

Well, the Australian government is never going to implement a carbon price without big subsidies for coal generators so any flows to cleaner technologies will be hampered. The ZCA plan requires massive efficiency savings and a complete changeover of ICE vehicles to electric vehicles. Neither of these are likely to happen under a government which wants to be re-elected or maintain some sort of civil order. But yeh, anyone who suggests nuclear power for Australia is more or less clueless.

In Japan's case their electricity mix is roughly 30% Coal, 30% Gas, 30% Nuclear and 10% Other. If they want to remove nuclear power from the grid they can double their coal or gas which isn't a very healthy option. They could also build 30,000 or so multi-megawatt offshore turbines (which probably isn't technically viable). Or zero consumption growth combined with efficiency gains of >30% which if possible, would take decades to achieve.

The problem with turning off NPPs is that once they are built they are relatively cheap to run with low emissions.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

Why oh why are nuclear powerplants built in earthquake danger zones.
We have one in California at Diablo Canyon. Near San Luis Obisbo.

Just reported today, the nuke plants at most risk in the US are not in California, but along the east coast.
(US nuke plants ranked by quake risk)
The ranking was done by the US NRC. Here are a few reasons from the report why plants in California were rated at lower risk:

Other plants in the East, South and Midwest, where the design standards may have been lower because the earthquake risk was thought to be low, have moved to the top of the NRC's danger list.

Every plant is designed with a margin of safety beyond the strongest earthquake anticipated in that area, the NRC says.

Because California was anticipated to have the strongest earthquakes, the article suggests that plants in that state were designed to withstand stronger earthquakes.

 

[scribe]

The problem with turning off NPPs is that once they are built they are relatively cheap to run with low emissions.

Plus, I've seen it written since this started that it costs nearly as much to de-certify one as it does to make one.

 

[Skandar Akbar]

Just reported today, the nuke plants at most risk in the US are not in California, but along the east coast
.........
Because California was anticipated to have the strongest earthquakes, the article suggests that plants in that state were designed to withstand stronger earthquakes.

Lol who would've thought the plants built in eq zones would be built to withstand earthquakes better than ones not built within earthquaake zones. What I nice concept in structurally engineering alert the universities engineers design for purpose!

There are three basic things structural engineers design for in industrial plants: normal operating conditions, upset conditions, and wind or earthquake. Of those three, the last varies by location obviously while the other 2 are constant. The loading due to eq may cause the structure to be more robust, but that does not mean the other 2 criteria are not met outside of a California. If all were built like cali's and thus be "safer" then that is a waste of money. I admit I haven't had time to read the article but if ur summary is true then I find the premise assinine.

Also the Japan issue is not due to eq design but a poor thought out philosophy regarding the emergency generators. That is not a structural issue.

I hope this posts contributes to the forum in a manner that satisfies the mods.