Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[Nilsson]

Winning on the brain hemorrhage was in 2004. From winning 1 stage in Tour de Suisse and to be 2nd in Romandie in 2006, to winning the Tour in 2007. Ha, you must naive that to believe someone is "clean" after your team has been implicated in Puerto, and your initials are on the list and then joining Discovery with Bruyneel and suddenly become the "Worlds most talented climber" etc. out of f--king nowhere.

Out of nowhere? You must be kidding...

Let's 'summarize' the first years of his career...

Contador entered ONCE in 2003, when he was 20 years old. In the physical testings of the team, led by Inigo San Millan (who worked with lots of great cyclist, and in more recent years worked for American teams like Garmin an United Health Care) he exceeded the testing protocols. Everyone who has worked with him agree's he's a physical phenomenon, sometimes even scary...

In that first year (2003) he won the time trial in the Tour of Poland. 19 km, and more than a minute faster than a guy like Jens Voigt. Also, he was forth in the Vuelta Castilla Y Leon (just behind Mancebo, Menchov en Zülle) and a very solid 15th place in the Tour of Germany. Not bad results for a 20-year old guy, I would say...

In 2004 (21 years old) he opened okay. 15th in Valencia. 5th in the 13 km opening time trial of Paris-Nice (leaving behind lots of older guys, including Zülle, Vinokourov, Landis, Rogers, Larsson and Cancellara) and a solid 7th in the Nice-Nice stage. He also got a 5th in GC in the Setmana Catalana (by far the youngest rider over there, leaving behind guys like Koldo Gil, Mayo, Leipheimer, Basso, Karpets, Valverde, etc.)... We all know what happened after that...

In 2005 (22 years old) he came back immediatly, just a couple of months after his brain surgery. Miraculously and in no comparison with average joe (or, for instance, your countryman Kai Reus, no pun intended). He won the Willunga stage in Down Under, was horribly strong in Paris-Nice (7th in the prologue, again leaving behind lots of guys you probably consider to be great, and nothing but impressive on the Mont Faron and the Col d'Eze (Youtube link), resulting in a 15th place in GC because he had to work for title-defender Jaksche)... Then he won the Setmana Catalana (plus a mountain stage victory) and became third in the Vuelta al Pais Vasco behind Di Luca en Rebellin (with a victory in the TT beating Julich)..
After that he became 4th in Romandie (winning a mountain stage) and had a solid but not spectacular first Tour, finishing 31st

The rest is known...

Contador didn't come from nowhere, since the day he entered the peloton he showed extreme talent (in the lab) and the ability to convert that into results in both climbing and time trialing. It's not by chance he wins big races, and will continue to do so. If Contador will not be banned and (finally, after lots of controversial years, from internal team stress to doping problems) can find his place in a good team, I believe he can even flourish more...

 

[doolols]

what i got from the latest delay is that had it been 3:0 either way, we'd know it already.

My take is different: the decision's already been made, be it 3-0 or 2-1. I don't think they can set a date, even one a week away, if they haven't made their minds up yet.

I think they're writing up the decision, and taking extreme care to get the wording correct to try and ensure that there are no appeals afterwards. Either side can't appeal the decision; they can only appeal the process, and that something was incorrect about how the decision came about, not the decision itself.

 

[Escarabajo]

If you look at Bertie's history - in the early 2000s, he won odd stages here and there in smaller races. In 2005, he finished 31st in the TdF. In 2006, He joins Astana, and doesn't do much. In 2007, he joins Discovery - and BAM! Wins TdF, Castilla y Leon, Paris-Nice. Then, back to Astana for 2008-2010, and the winning continues ...

There is more proof than what you are providing IMO.

 

[doolols]

Contador didn't come from nowhere, since the day he entered the peloton he showed extreme talent (in the lab) and the ability to convert that into results in both climbing and time trialing.

He's always been successful in TTs, and he's always won a lot of single stages, and minor races. It's only when he gets to Discovery that he's able to extend this into GT wins. Maybe, it's as a result of better training, better tactics. But the circumstantial evidence of his connections to doping in Puerto / Fuentes in 2006 makes his improvement a little suspicious. All IMO, of course.

 

[Von Mises]

Out of nowhere? You must be kidding...

Let's 'summarize' the first years of his career...

Contador entered ONCE in 2003, when he was 20 years old. In the physical testings of the team, led by Inigo San Millan (who worked with lots of great cyclist, and in more recent years worked for American teams like Garmin an United Health Care) he exceeded the testing protocols. Everyone who has worked with him agree's he's a physical phenomenon, sometimes even scary...

In that first year (2003) he won the time trial in the Tour of Poland. 19 km, and more than a minute faster than a guy like Jens Voigt. Also, he was forth in the Vuelta Castilla Y Leon (just behind Mancebo, Menchov en Zülle) and a very solid 15th place in the Tour of Germany. Not bad results for a 20-year old guy, I would say...

In 2004 (21 years old) he opened okay. 15th in Valencia. 5th in the 13 km opening time trial of Paris-Nice (leaving behind lots of older guys, including Zülle, Vinokourov, Landis, Rogers, Larsson and Cancellara) and a solid 7th in the Nice-Nice stage. He also got a 5th in GC in the Setmana Catalana (by far the youngest rider over there, leaving behind guys like Koldo Gil, Mayo, Leipheimer, Basso, Karpets, Valverde, etc.)... We all know what happened after that...

In 2005 (22 years old) he came back immediatly, just a couple of months after his brain surgery. Miraculously and in no comparison with average joe (or, for instance, your countryman Kai Reus, no pun intended). He won the Willunga stage in Down Under, was horribly strong in Paris-Nice (7th in the prologue, again leaving behind lots of guys you probably consider to be great, and nothing but impressive on the Mont Faron and the Col d'Eze (Youtube link), resulting in a 15th place in GC because he had to work for title-defender Jaksche)... Then he won the Setmana Catalana (plus a mountain stage victory) and became third in the Vuelta al Pais Vasco behind Di Luca en Rebellin (with a victory in the TT beating Julich)..
After that he became 4th in Romandie (winning a mountain stage) and had a solid but not spectacular first Tour, finishing 31st

The rest is known...

Contador didn't come from nowhere, since the day he entered the peloton he showed extreme talent (in the lab) and the ability to convert that into results in both climbing and time trialing. It's not by chance he wins big races, and will continue to do so. If Contador will not be banned and (finally, after lots of controversial years, from internal team stress to doping problems) can find his place in a good team, I believe he can even flourish more...

And in 2007 he won Paris-Nice, Vuelta a Castilla y León and TDF in a row... Just like that.

Out of nowhere maybe exaggeration, but go back to July 2007 and dig up some betting odds - Contador was even not considered to be in TOP 10 (despite the fact that he had just won Paris-Nice and Castilla y Leon).

He clearly had a huge jump in his performance after joining JB.

NB! All this talk about his records and perfomances are just BS.

 

[LaFlorecita]

If you look at Bertie's history - in the early 2000s, he won odd stages here and there in smaller races. In 2005, he finished 31st in the TdF. In 2006, He joins Astana, and doesn't do much. In 2007, he joins Discovery - and BAM! Wins TdF, Castilla y Leon, Paris-Nice. Then, back to Astana for 2008-2010, and the winning continues ...

He never joined Astana before Discovery.

As to the point you're making, don't you think it could've anything to do with aging and developing?

 

[Ferminal]

He's always been successful in TTs, and he's always won a lot of single stages, and minor races. It's only when he gets to Discovery that he's able to extend this into GT wins. Maybe, it's as a result of better training, better tactics. But the circumstantial evidence of his connections to doping in Puerto / Fuentes in 2006 makes his improvement a little suspicious. All IMO, of course.

So was he doping with Fuentes prior to 2006, or when he joined US Postal?

What I mean is it's difficult to say that Contador is a doper because maybe he was linked to Fuentes, and then say that he rapidly improved in 2007 because he joined up with JB's expert doping.

 

[Havetts]

My bet is he was for sure with Manolo Saiz during the ONCE/Liberty Seguros days, the scary part is to think of what he added to his cocktail when he joined Discovery.

 

[python]

My take is different: the decision's already been made, be it 3-0 or 2-1. I don't think they can set a date, even one a week away, if they haven't made their minds up yet.

I think they're writing up the decision, and taking extreme care to get the wording correct to try and ensure that there are no appeals afterwards. Either side can't appeal the decision; they can only appeal the process, and that something was incorrect about how the decision came about, not the decision itself.

on the day of the announcement of their decision, a typical COMMUNICATION by cas is several sentences long. assuming that being the case on 6 february, we are likely to be reading that kind of condensed verdict. nothing much longer.

so, i don't see much challenge in cas delaying in order to find the 'right' words.

otoh, a typical script of the cas ruling (an official document normally about 20-30 pages long) would be published (but not always)several weeks AFTER the verdict communication summary. that's where i agree with you, cas will try to use a very careful language. i'm not sure that document is written yet.

as to the appeal to the swiss federal court, i think any side if they feel they have strong grounds, regardless of the wording in the verdict,would exercise that opportunity.

 

[Nilsson]

He's always been successful in TTs, and he's always won a lot of single stages, and minor races. It's only when he gets to Discovery that he's able to extend this into GT wins. Maybe, it's as a result of better training, better tactics. But the circumstantial evidence of his connections to doping in Puerto / Fuentes in 2006 makes his improvement a little suspicious. All IMO, of course.

The circumstancial evidence could be suspicous, but I don't see what it has to do (as such) with the improvement you focus on. If, since day one, he has shown extreme talent and the ability to convert that into results, it's to be expected he will step up. It's not that he couldn't ride GC's. He won GC's and did good GC's (in spite of team hierarchies and young age) from scratch. When he lost, it was in flat stages or due to 'overachieving' or his enthusiastic racing style (which still is a danger to him).

It's not that strange that a young guy makes progression and matures. But it's not that the world turned upside-down. If a 24-year old guy finally manages to win Paris-Nice (instead of the Setmana Catalana, against the same guys, and just lost the same and other races against the same guys) it's not suspicious or unexpected. It's something that is to expect.

In the Tour of course he was a surprise, but it's not that he couldn't beat those guys (he already had done that lots of times). But it was a three week race? So what? The guy had only done such a race once two years earlier, finishing 31st at 22 years after a hard (but successful) season, including comeback from brain surgery for Christ sake. More importantly, it's still the same bunch of guys (he has been able to beat since day one, regularly) and he's a young and upcoming guy brought to peak in a grand tour for the first time (by Bruyneel, whatever that may or may not include - in comparison to the competition I don't think it's conclusive)...

If Contador, in your opinion, wasn't allowed to step-up, who is? Who will be? What do you think about Chris Froome? Bauke Mollema? Jelle Vanendert? Pierre Rolland? Thomas Voeckler? Cadel Evans? Even guys like Gesink and Kreuziger? Contador had already won 3 or more grand Tours, and lots of other races, at their age...

What leaves us with: guilty by association or just for being extraordinary? Fact is that he is (whatever that may or may not include, but isn't the whole story)...

 

[Andynonomous]

All of these delays suggest that the CAS doesn't feel comfortable with the decision they have made.

Maybe, they are embarassed with their decision?

 

[BYOP88]

He's always been successful in TTs, and he's always won a lot of single stages, and minor races. It's only when he gets to Discovery that he's able to extend this into GT wins. Maybe, it's as a result of better training, better tactics. But the circumstantial evidence of his connections to doping in Puerto / Fuentes in 2006 makes his improvement a little suspicious. All IMO, of course.

You may well maybe right in what you've said regarding the 'juice', but in Contador's defence not many guys win a GT in their 1st ride in a GT(If you have the stats of riders winning a GT in their 1st ride, I'd be more than interested to see it). From what I can remember about the '05 TdF he was there to learn and to work for Heras, who was LS-W's leader.

 

[ChrisE]

on the day of the announcement of their decision, a typical COMMUNICATION by cas is several sentences long. assuming that being the case on 6 february, we are likely to be reading that kind of condensed verdict. nothing much longer.

so, i don't see much challenge in cas delaying in order to find the 'right' words.

otoh, a typical script of the cas ruling (an official document normally about 20-30 pages long) would be published (but not always)several weeks AFTER the verdict communication summary. that's where i agree with you, cas will try to use a very careful language. i'm not sure that document is written yet.

as to the appeal to the swiss federal court, i think any side if they feel they have strong grounds, regardless of the wording in the verdict,would exercise that opportunity.

So, if it is typical they would release the ruling then follow up with a detailed explanation, then could one possibly conclude they haven't made up their mind yet?

 

[Hmmmmm]

Talk about bureaucracy. How long does it take to come to a decision? He should be let off just because the process is taking so freaking long. Good grief. How stupid can these people be on this decision board? If us as individuals have to respond to charges we have to respond within a set period of time. If we decide we want to wax philosophically over things - well, there is no room for that. Be done with it for whom ever you believe in's sake

 

[doolols]

Be done with it for whom ever you believe in's sake

There's an element of that, for sure. Maybe they're delaying it until they think no-one's watching?

Mind you, he's not sound over-confident in this piece in Velonews

Contador, meanwhile, says it hasn’t been easy trying to deal with the uncertainty of his future while trying to remain active in the peloton.

Speaking to the Spanish daily ABC, Contador admitted he wants the story to end, ideally with him being absolved of any allegations of wrongdoing.

“I try to stay busy all day, even though sometimes that’s difficult,” Contador told ABC. “I enjoy racing the bike and competing, and that helps, but sometimes things get into your head, and you ask yourself how you can be in this situation, and sometimes it’s hard to understand.”

 

[Hmmmmm]

I don't mean to go off on a rant but sometimes I feel enough is enough. Sure, Contador probably doped. But the fact is he did not kill somebody. A lot of the things said on this forum are speculation, and that is it. Nothing more. This case has dragged on for so long that it makes me wonder who is reaching more - Contador or the incompetent people ruling on this.

 

[Hmmmmm]

My take is different: the decision's already been made, be it 3-0 or 2-1. I don't think they can set a date, even one a week away, if they haven't made their minds up yet.

I think they're writing up the decision, and taking extreme care to get the wording correct to try and ensure that there are no appeals afterwards. Either side can't appeal the decision; they can only appeal the process, and that something was incorrect about how the decision came about, not the decision itself.

I missed this post of yours. I think you may have a valid point here. Yes, when it comes to law, governance, and procedures, wording is critical.

 

[doolols]

Sure, Contador probably doped. But the fact is he did not kill somebody.

Here we go with another of these ridiculous comparisons. We're talking about cycling, and this stuff is important to some of us. We don't like people cheating - breaking rules and getting away with it. If you just shrug your shoulders and say "that's cycling", then let's do away with rules entirely, and make it a free for all.

Yes, it is conjecture and speculation, but that's why the clinic is here, and that's what we do here. And sometimes we find good factual stuff. But not often. But it's still good to talk about it. If you don't like the conversation, there's lots of others going on.

 

[Hmmmmm]

Here we go with another of these ridiculous comparisons. We're talking about cycling, and this stuff is important to some of us. We don't like people cheating - breaking rules and getting away with it. If you just shrug your shoulders and say "that's cycling", then let's do away with rules entirely, and make it a free for all.

Yes, it is conjecture and speculation, but that's why the clinic is here, and that's what we do here. And sometimes we find good factual stuff. But not often. But it's still good to talk about it. If you don't like the conversation, there's lots of others going on.

Alright, forget what I said in regards to the comparison. It's time that somebody made a decision, one way or the other. I work for a living and if I took my good old time making a decision or taking action on all the tasks assigned to me I would lose my job due to poor performance and waste of money.

I care about cycling. Been following the sport and participating for over 20 years. Even interested in the history. Cycling gets a bad rap because cycling appears to not know how to manage its own activities at times. My dog ate my homework should only work once, if that. Tainted meat is a stretch, I will admit. But it was thrown out there and these so called experts should have been able to reach a decision by now.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Alright, forget what I said in regards to the comparison. It's time that somebody made a decision, one way or the other. I work for a living and if I took my good old time making a decision or taking action on all the tasks assigned to me I would lose my job due to poor performance and waste of money.

I care about cycling. Been following the sport and participating for over 20 years. Even interested in the history. Cycling gets a bad rap because cycling appears to not know how to manage its own activities at times. My dog ate my homework should only work once, if that. Tainted meat is a stretch, I will admit. But it was thrown out there and these so called experts should have been able to reach a decision by now.

Complicated cases take time. Nothing to do with the verdict, it is dependent on how much evidence, information ,witnesses there are.
As any verdict could be challenged, what CAS will be attempting to do will be to make sure it sustains any appeal.

A couple of examples of equally complicated and hard fought cases.
Valverde 2 CAS cases.
The first against the Italian ban was held 12-14 January 2010 and the decision came 16th March
The second was held on 18-21 March 2010 and the decision was announced on 31st May.

Landis CAS case ended 24th March 2008 the verdict did not come out until 30th June.

 

[Publicus]

And in 2007 he won Paris-Nice, Vuelta a Castilla y León and TDF in a row... Just like that.

Out of nowhere maybe exaggeration, but go back to July 2007 and dig up some betting odds - Contador was even not considered to be in TOP 10 (despite the fact that he had just won Paris-Nice and Castilla y Leon).

He clearly had a huge jump in his performance after joining JB.

NB! All this talk about his records and perfomances are just BS.

2007 was also, I believe, the first year the team actually rode for him for the overall victory. On his previous teams he was support for the other team leader--hence the bulk of his early wins being TT and single stages.

 

[Von Mises]

2007 was also, I believe, the first year the team actually rode for him for the overall victory. On his previous teams he was support for the other team leader--hence the bulk of his early wins being TT and single stages.

Maybe, but change is still remarkable. During first 4 years as a pro he gets what, 5 stage wins from here and there. During first 4 months with Bryneel, he will be a champion of PN, Leon, TDF...

People should just stop making up revisionist history and think themselves back to the fall of 2006, read some papers or forums of that time, what names are mentioned, what names are not. To make it even clearer. Nibali, 2 years younger than Contador, no teamleader himself, ranked 36 in 2006 CQ Rankings, way ahead of Contador. If someone would made a question in 2006 who will be a big star of the future, Nibali or Contador? Well, answer was obvious.

 

[hrotha]

Maybe, but change is still remarkable. During first 4 years as a pro he gets what, 5 stage wins from here and there. During first 4 months with Bryneel, he will be a champion of PN, Leon, TDF...

People should just stop making up revisionist history and think themselves back to the fall of 2006, read some papers or forums of that time, what names are mentioned, what names are not. To make it even clearer. Nibali, 2 years younger than Contador, no teamleader himself, ranked 36 in 2006 CQ Rankings, way ahead of Contador. If someone would made a question in 2006 who will be a big star of the future, Nibali or Contador? Well, answer was obvious.

Maybe you're forgetting his 2005 season, which incidentally was his first complete one after the one of his debut (at 20)? You're the revisionist here. Contador was always touted as a huge talent. He didn't come out of nowhere.

As for your question, in 2006 I'd definitely have answered "Contador," at least for GTs.

 

[Cimber]

Contador isnt as calm and collected as we seem to think. He is (of course) a wreck and have been for 500+ days:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...for-the-best-with-cas-decision-looming_204945

 

[doolols]

Contador isnt as calm and collected as we seem to think. He is (of course) a wreck and have been for 500+ days:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012...for-the-best-with-cas-decision-looming_204945

Yep. I linked that upthread: http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=779803&postcount=1351

So maybe it's not a foregone conclusion, as far as he's concerned.