Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[sniper]

No, he doesn'tt say that the positive trend started roughly in 2008 (which could still be 2007 if we take it roughly). That is totally your spin on a rather neutral answer he gives.

He gives an example whereby he compared splits and times for the ascent of the Alpe d'Huez for different decades to show that cycling ahs become cleaner. For that purpose he compares Satre's attach from the bottom of the Alpe in 2008 with splits and times in the 90's and 80's and concludes that Sastre was much slower than in the 90's and about as fast as the fastest guys in 80's (pre-EPO). He couldn't have used 2007 for that comparison since the Alpe wasn't part of the 2007 course.

Regards
GJ

hm... good point, admittedly.

nonetheless, i'm quite sure it wouldn't occur to him (or to anybody for that matter) to put forward Contador's and Rasmussen's menage-a-deux from 2007 as an example of a new cleaner era. More likely, it'll go down in the record books as one of the most absurd displays of doped climbing..
(i'm not saying i didn't like watching it, by the way...

-----
(GJ, sorry nog voor die onaardige post laatst, was onnodig mijnerzijds.)

 

[Nilsson]

hm... good point, admittedly.

nonetheless, i'm quite sure it wouldn't occur to him (or to anybody for that matter) to put forward Contador's and Rasmussen's menage-a-deux from 2007 as an example of a new cleaner era. More likely, it'll go down in the record books as one of the most absurd displays of doped climbing..
(i'm not saying i didn't like watching it, by the way...

-----
(GJ, sorry nog voor die onaardige post laatst, was onnodig mijnerzijds.)

What has (the start of) a cleaner era to do with Contador being talented or not? It's quite irrelevant in this spin-off discussion, IMO, but I guess Contador did win his fair share of races in the 'cleaner' era as well for what it's worth (and quite the understatement, although probably all thanks to being a doper in a clean era, I presume?)

Nevertheless, San Millan will tell you that Contador is a physical freak (probably not that, wheter or not in spite of that, he doped - exceedingly - as well. Though, you never know, and it never hurts to ask )

 

[doolols]

Thank you Herr Nilsson.
That made me laugh.

Me too. One of the funniest things I've seen in a long time. And definitely the funniest thing I've ever seen on here.

Thank you.

 

[GJB123]

hm... good point, admittedly.

nonetheless, i'm quite sure it wouldn't occur to him (or to anybody for that matter) to put forward Contador's and Rasmussen's menage-a-deux from 2007 as an example of a new cleaner era. More likely, it'll go down in the record books as one of the most absurd displays of doped climbing..
(i'm not saying i didn't like watching it, by the way...

-----
(GJ, sorry nog voor die onaardige post laatst, was onnodig mijnerzijds.)

I think the main reason he used 2008 is because, as he states, Sastre did the entire climb on his own so you cannot say he was aided or anything or there might have been tactical reasons to slow down. Sastre was just going as fast as possible all the way. That and the fact that the Alpe is a quite frequent recurrence in Tours down the decades.

Regards
GJ

Verder "no hard feelings" over die bewuste post.

 

[Merckx index]

Good link, Gooner.

In an editorial written in reaction to McQuaid’s comments, Spain’s leading sports daily, Marca, said that the UCI president’s words were “a blow to the heart for a country that owes a large part of its recent joy to the success of its athletes."

However, it agreed that a succession of positive tests among the country’s cyclists meant that action needed to be taken to "banish this curse."

Marca continued: "This does not mean that we can doubt the successes of our athletes.

Actually, that’s exactly what it means, unless one believes all those positives were false.

From Contador interview summarized in CN:

"Genetically, I am very privileged. No matter how much I eat, I don't put on weight beyond a certain level. And as soon as I start to cut down on the food and train, I lose it without any problem. In Gran Canaria, I was training for five hours and just eating fruit and the weight was falling off me. If you are sensible about things, you don't have any problems."

Translation: Why would I need clenbuterol to lose weight? All my success is due to genetics and sensible training.

I'm beginning to wonder if this seven kilo business is PR designed to drive home the point that he loses weight easily and naturally. Bert surely can't be unaware of the connection of this kind of talk to his doping case. It can't affect the outcome of his case, presumably, but if he is cleared, he can, in his statement to the press, emphasize to any doubters that he he has never needed any drugs to lose weight.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Good link, Gooner.



Actually, that’s exactly what it means, unless one believes all those positives were false.

From Contador interview summarized in CN:



Translation: Why would I need clenbuterol to lose weight? All my success is due to genetics and sensible training.

I'm beginning to wonder if this seven kilo business is PR designed to drive home the point that he loses weight easily and naturally. Bert surely can't be unaware of the connection of this kind of talk to his doping case. It can't affect the outcome of his case, presumably, but if he is cleared, he can, in his statement to the press, emphasize to any doubters that he he has never needed any drugs to lose weight.

Congratulations !

 

[python]

... Why would I need clenbuterol to lose weight? All my success is due to genetics and sensible training.

let me try to address this (again , i don't pretend knowing the truth), only stating my opinion and the personal experience it is based on...

let's firtst agree on the extra kilos being a PR sand bagging from bert. nothing we haven't heard before or since from the other pros lying about their true weight...

that said, i never had a problem of losing several kilos in a matter of 7-10 days by simply planning and balancing my calories vs kilometers, both in cross-country ski racing in the winter and in bike tt competition in the summer.we're talking competitive python, 195 cm, 75 kilos, 30+.

why would a professionally advised bert be less successful in managing his body weight by easy, legal means ? an honest question.

keep in mind, bert loads his metabolic system by plain kilometers ridden (kilo for kilo) 30-40%more that i ever was and perhaps 2 times above the average active biker.

 

[sniper]

Good link, Gooner.

Actually, that’s exactly what it means, unless one believes all those positives were false.

yep, good link, and a reminder of one of the very few truthful things mcQuack has ever said.

From Contador interview summarized in CN:

Translation: Why would I need clenbuterol to lose weight? All my success is due to genetics and sensible training.

I'm beginning to wonder if this seven kilo business is PR designed to drive home the point that he loses weight easily and naturally. Bert surely can't be unaware of the connection of this kind of talk to his doping case. It can't affect the outcome of his case, presumably, but if he is cleared, he can, in his statement to the press, emphasize to any doubters that he he has never needed any drugs to lose weight.

spot on analysis.
Indeed, you can leave out the "I'm beginning to wonder if" part, which i guess is also what cobblestoned meant to say.

 

[Merckx index]

Congratulations !

It's a very narrow tightrope I walk in this forum, between trying to appear not too cynical and pessimistic on the one hand, and too naive on the other.

i never had a problem of losing several kilos in a matter of 7-10 days by simply planning and balancing my calories vs kilometers, both in cross-country ski racing in the winter and in bike tt competition in the summer.we're talking competitive python, 195 cm, 75 kilos, 30+.

why would a professionally advised bert be less successful in managing his body weight by easy, legal means ? an honest question.

keep in mind, bert loads his metabolic system by plain kilometers ridden (kilo for kilo) 30-40%more that i ever was and perhaps 2 times above the average active biker.

This point makes more sense now that the two-step transfusion theory seems to be required. When the transfusion theory was first proposed, the thinking as you know was that he would have withdrawn blood in June, between the DL (where he appeared a little sluggish) and the Tour, and needed to lose weight in a hurry--7-10 days might not have been fast enough. The two-step scenario needed to account for the DEHP positive strongly implies an offseason withdrawal, where it would seem that there would be no urgency in losing the weight.

Never having used CB myself, the question I have is, does it enable weight loss with less loss of muscle and power than natural means do? If you lose weight simply by restricting calories, you're going to lose some muscle and power, too. To lose weight by losing fat only, you need to eat a pretty substantial diet while also exercising. I appreciate that this is what Bert does, and what you did, but will a program like that enable you to lose several kilos in a week? It seems to me that losing weight entirely through fat metabolism, while maintaining or even increasing lean body mass, requires a more gradual program that may take several weeks or more. For seven kilos, I should think at least a month? And that this is why CB is tempting to athletes--not that it accomplishes something they couldn't do by natural means, but accomplishes it much faster.

Dietician experts or others feel free to weigh (!) in here.

 

[sniper]

It's a very narrow tightrope I walk in this forum, between trying to appear not too cynical and pessimistic on the one hand, and too naive on the other.



This point makes more sense now that the two-step transfusion theory seems to be required. When the transfusion theory was first proposed, the thinking as you know was that he would have withdrawn blood in June, between the DL (where he appeared a little sluggish) and the Tour, and needed to lose weight in a hurry--7-10 days might not have been fast enough. The two-step scenario needed to account for the DEHP positive strongly implies an offseason withdrawal, where it would seem that there would be no urgency in losing the weight.

Never having used CB myself, the question I have is, does it enable weight loss with less loss of muscle and power than natural means do? If you lose weight simply by restricting calories, you're going to lose some muscle and power, too. To lose weight by losing fat only, you need to eat a pretty substantial diet while also exercising. I appreciate that this is what Bert does, and what you did, but will a program like that enable you to lose several kilos in a week? It seems to me that losing weight entirely through fat metabolism, while maintaining or even increasing lean body mass, requires a more gradual program that may take several weeks or more. For seven kilos, I should think at least a month? And that this is why CB is tempting to athletes--not that it accomplishes something they couldn't do by natural means, but accomplishes it much faster.

Dietician experts or others feel free to weigh (!) in here.

I agree with what you imply here.
AC perhaps wouldn'T have needed the CLEN to loose those kilos, he could have done it the veggie-way. But he took it anyway, knowing it would grow him some additional muscle instead of fat, and knowing that it would be out of his system by the time the tour starts.

 

[Fidolix]

He said he was 7.5 kg overweight when he started the Canarian training camp.
The length of the camp was 10 days. (5th - 15th of january)

8 days later he started the Tour de San Luis and said he still had 3.5 kg overweight!
I´m not a math professor but from what I learned in school its a weight loss of 4 kg!!!
Its a weightloss of 4 kgs in almost 3 weeks, and NOT 7 kgs!!!!
Woohoo the guy must be superhuman on drugs...right?
WRONG!!! It´s a very normal weightloss with the right diet and correct training, its not even close to what would actually be possible by legal methods!

But of course I see the convience in changing the facts and continue the allegations and wishful thinking, and make a case out of nothing.

 

[Nilsson]

It's a very narrow tightrope I walk in this forum, between trying to appear not too cynical and pessimistic on the one hand, and too naive on the other.



This point makes more sense now that the two-step transfusion theory seems to be required. When the transfusion theory was first proposed, the thinking as you know was that he would have withdrawn blood in June, between the DL (where he appeared a little sluggish) and the Tour, and needed to lose weight in a hurry--7-10 days might not have been fast enough. The two-step scenario needed to account for the DEHP positive strongly implies an offseason withdrawal, where it would seem that there would be no urgency in losing the weight.

Never having used CB myself, the question I have is, does it enable weight loss with less loss of muscle and power than natural means do? If you lose weight simply by restricting calories, you're going to lose some muscle and power, too. To lose weight by losing fat only, you need to eat a pretty substantial diet while also exercising. I appreciate that this is what Bert does, and what you did, but will a program like that enable you to lose several kilos in a week? It seems to me that losing weight entirely through fat metabolism, while maintaining or even increasing lean body mass, requires a more gradual program that may take several weeks or more. For seven kilos, I should think at least a month? And that this is why CB is tempting to athletes--not that it accomplishes something they couldn't do by natural means, but accomplishes it much faster.

Dietician experts or others feel free to weigh (!) in here.

But you don't think that Bert was x kilos overweight after the Dauphiné, do you? One kilo would already be surprisingly much, but could be possible. He has however been sick in the weeks before the Tour, probably the most important reason why he wasn't super during the Tour that year, although that would probably 'help' him to lose weight. Unless it had to do with his severe allergies, and he had trouble breathing. That could be a link to clenbuterol (if salbutamol wasn't strong enough to overcome it, so shortly before the Tour?). Yet, that would incredibly risky with the pre-Tour testing in mind and I can't imagine extracting blood with few days left to the tour (especially not during a cure, of just after a cure, in such a short time frame and having to deal with pharmacokinetics)...

I such a theory would have been presented to me, I would at least ask WADA to re-test some samples (because there must be samples from that period).

 

[DirtyWorks]

...Unless it had to do with his severe allergies, and he had trouble breathing. That could be a link to clenbuterol (....

I such a theory would have been presented to me, I would at least ask WADA to re-test some samples (because there must be samples from that period).

The problem with that scenario is Contador gets a TUE for the allergy medication of his choosing and the detection of said allergy medication is covered by the TUE. Not simple, but not that hard and enormously easy to manage compared to this circus.

No one can ignore the fact the presence of clenbuterol was introduced. It does not occur naturally.

Here's a grim article on clen as a means to weight loss. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-wonder-drug-gripping-planet-zero-441059.html

 

[ferryman]

Fixed that for you


Its a weightloss of 4 kgs in almost 3 weeks, and NOT 7 kgs!!!!
Woohoo the guy must be superhuman on drugs...right?
WRONG!!! It´s a very normal weightloss with the right diet and correct training, its not even close to what would actually be possible by illegal methods!

But of course I see the convience in changing the facts and continue the allegations and wishful thinking, and make a case out of nothing.[/QUOTE]

 

[Siriuscat]

I note that there's no further confirmation from CAS that the results will be released on Monday.......anyone find anything, anywhere??? CAS website has nothing

 

[Sciocco]

I note that there's no further confirmation from CAS that the results will be released on Monday.......anyone find anything, anywhere??? CAS website has nothing

The less they say the easier it is to push it back. We'll find out when Alberto is 48 and no one will care.

 

[sniper]

But you don't think that Bert was x kilos overweight after the Dauphiné, do you? One kilo would already be surprisingly much, but could be possible. He has however been sick in the weeks before the Tour, probably the most important reason why he wasn't super during the Tour that year, although that would probably 'help' him to lose weight. Unless it had to do with his severe allergies, and he had trouble breathing. That could be a link to clenbuterol (if salbutamol wasn't strong enough to overcome it, so shortly before the Tour?). Yet, that would incredibly risky with the pre-Tour testing in mind and I can't imagine extracting blood with few days left to the tour (especially not during a cure, of just after a cure, in such a short time frame and having to deal with pharmacokinetics)...

I such a theory would have been presented to me, I would at least ask WADA to re-test some samples (because there must be samples from that period).

Nillson, I'm not sure from your post whether you are seriously considering AC's steak-story to have any merit. Are you?

Anyway, I would not give AC too much credit and would not look too far for links to clenbuterol.
We know he tested positive for it, we know he had troubles in the Dauphiné and needed to cut weight, we know he tested positive on the 2nd resday. We know he's not a meat-eater. We know the UCI gave him a couple of weeks to come up with the stake-tale. (E.g. Kimmage called AC's excuse an insult to the intelligence of cycling fans. I'd have to agree.)
Here's what and how it happened before the tour according to an Astana insider (not sure if you were around in the clinic when this piece was discussed, so I repost it):
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...-transfusion-prior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx

I see no reason to assume anyone c/would make that story up and publish it in a non-cycling journal.
And AC never filed charges against the magazine.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Nillson, I'm not sure from your post whether you are seriously considering AC's steak-story to have any merit. Are you?

Anyway, I would not give AC too much credit and would not look too far for links to clenbuterol.
We know he tested positive for it, we know he had troubles in the Dauphiné and needed to cut weight, we know he tested positive on the 2nd resday. We know he's not a meat-eater. We know the UCI gave him a couple of weeks to come up with the stake-tale. (E.g. Kimmage called AC's excuse an insult to the intelligence of cycling fans. I'd have to agree.)
Here's what and how it happened before the tour according to an Astana insider (not sure if you were around in the clinic when this piece was discussed, so I repost it):
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...-transfusion-prior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx

I see no reason to assume anyone c/would make that story up and publish it in a non-cycling journal.
And AC never filed charges against the magazine.

All this just makes me go "WTF"

 

[Nilsson]

Nillson, I'm not sure from your post whether you are seriously considering AC got it through eating meat. Are you?

How small the probability may be, I don't rule anything out and do certainly not want to judge because of a gut feeling. If from a legal and scientific point of view the contaminated meat theory is the most likely or, what is probably a better way to look at it, the other theories are not strong/sufficient enough, Contador should get the benefit of the doubt and shouldn't receive a ban...

Anyway, I would not give AC too much credit and would not look too far for links to clenbuterol. We know he tested positive for it, we know he had troubles in the Dauphiné and needed to cut weight, we know he tested positive on the 2nd resday. We know he's not a meat-eater. We know the UCI gave him a couple of weeks to come up with the stake-tale. (E.g. Kimmage called AC's excuse an insult to the intelligence of cycling fans. I'd have to agree.)

That's a very subjective point of view. The only thing we can recall, is that he indeed tested positive for clenbuterol (in such a fact case, that some kind of contamination (whether it is meat or transfusion) and that he actually ate meat has to be accepted. The rest is speculation from your side.

I personally also wouldn't like to bring Kimmage into this discussion. It's an appeal to authority (and a very bad one, to say the least, as well).

Here's what and how it happened before the tour according to an Astana insider (not sure if you were around in the clinic when this piece was discussed, so I repost it):
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...-transfusion-prior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx

I see no reason to assume anyone c/would make that story up and publish it in a non-cycling journal.
And AC never filed charges against the magazine.

I can't give any credibilty to this kind of story. It was anonymously (although I presume it must have been Chris Van Roosbroeck) and there was never given any back up to the story...

More importantly, it still doesn't change the fact that even if this story is true, there's a lot to take into account.

Firstly, it's incredibly risky to have a clenbuterol treatment, especcially that shortly before the Tour. It means that that Conatdor should have tested positive in the pre-Tour period, and it's very strange he didn't (If I were a CAS arbitrator, I would ask WADA to re-test some samples, if they really believe in this theory, and come back later).
Secondly, it would be a bit strange to extract blood this short before the Tour (especially the clenbuterol in mind). And more than already is, be a problem for and even in contradiction with the DEHP and the two-step transfusion theory. Extracting blood before the Tour should be followed by a transfusion immediately and would be very a strong signal for whole blood transfusion (and a cycle of those). It would almost certainly mean that WADA's theory could not be right, if the story of this man is true...

 

[Zam_Olyas]

CAS officially confirms Contador decision will come on Monday

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...ms-Contador-decision-will-come-on-Monday.aspx

 

[Sciocco]

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...ms-Contador-decision-will-come-on-Monday.aspx

They even have a time of day, might be worth waking up early to read about it.

 

[sniper]

How small the probability may be, I don't rule anything out and do certainly not want to judge because of a gut feeling. If from a legal and scientific point of view the contaminated meat theory is the most likely or, what is probably a better way to look at it, the other theories are not strong/sufficient enough, Contador should get the benefit of the doubt and shouldn't receive a ban...



That's a very subjective point of view. The only thing we can recall, is that he indeed tested positive for clenbuterol (in such a fact case, that some kind of contamination (whether it is meat or transfusion) and that he actually ate meat has to be accepted. The rest is speculation from your side.

I personally also wouldn't like to bring Kimmage into this discussion. It's an appeal to authority (and a very bad one, to say the least, as well).



I can't give any credibilty to this kind of story. It was anonymously (although I presume it must have been Chris Van Roosbroeck) and there was never given any back up to the story...

More importantly, it still doesn't change the fact that even if this story is true, there's a lot to take into account.

Firstly, it's incredibly risky to have a clenbuterol treatment, especcially that shortly before the Tour. It means that that Conatdor should have tested positive in the pre-Tour period, and it's very strange he didn't (If I were a CAS arbitrator, I would ask WADA to re-test some samples, if they really believe in this theory, and come back later).
Secondly, it would be a bit strange to extract blood this short before the Tour (especially the clenbuterol in mind). And more than already is, be a problem for and even in contradiction with the DEHP and the two-step transfusion theory. Extracting blood before the Tour should be followed by a transfusion immediately and would be very a strong signal for whole blood transfusion (and a cycle of those). It would almost certainly mean that WADA's theory could not be right, if the story of this man is true...

you're making some valid points. but again, I feel you're giving AC way too much credit. Recall what Knebel said recently:

the relationship between risk and return is beneficial to the abuser

Iow: What to you (and me) seems to be incredibly risky, is not necessarily perceived as such by a guy like AC.

By the way, you say that if AC took CLEN after the Dauphiné, he should have tested positive for CLEN in the pretour tests.
That seems a valid point. And it makes me wonder: aren't there any masking agents for CLEN?

 

[Nilsson]

you're making some valid points. but again, I feel you're giving AC way too much credit. Recall what Knebel said recently:

Iow: What to you (and me) seems to be incredibly risky, is not necessarily perceived as such by a guy like AC.

You have to understand that the relationship between risk and return, unlike Knebel likes to think, necessarily means that it's interesting for a 'big gun' to dope - or in this case, be reckless. AC is the one who has something to lose, who is tested the most and has to be very carefull what he does. Using clenbuterol during the season, especially just before the Tour, and also extracting blood at the same time isn't careful - to put it mildly. You have to keep in mind that Contador was tested 32 times, in the first half of the 2010 season alone. He must have been incredibly stupid and lucky to fly under the radar with clenbuterol in that time frame. CAS will at least ask WADA how someting like that could be possible, and why (if they really believe in such a theory) there hasn't been done any re-testing (that we know of) to make a clear case.

As far as I know, and have been able to find, there's no masking agent for clenbuterol. The source from the after-Daupiné theory isn't talking about one as well, and most of all it would be problematic to the fact that he did test positive in the Tour (where you would expect that, if the clen was present in the plasma, the masking agent would be as well. Certainly in case of clen's long half-life, and a probably prolonged use of the masking agent...)

You may think I give Contador too much credit, I think you let your gut speak too easily. Something I completely understand by the way, don't get me wrong. His story sounds bloody lame at first sight, not incredibly likely at second, is surrounded by doubtful circumstances and most of all: he's a cyclist, a GT-winner, even a multiple GT-winner. What do we need more?

The answer is: a conclusive theory that meets the burden of proof and is found to be more likely that AC's story. We can like it or not, but we have to deal with it...

 

[roundabout]

I note that there's no further confirmation from CAS that the results will be released on Monday.......anyone find anything, anywhere??? CAS website has nothing

Monday

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/1...ms-Contador-decision-will-come-on-Monday.aspx


Maybe.

 

[DirtyWorks]

How small the probability may be, I don't rule anything out..
... and that he actually ate meat has to be accepted.
.

You are believing the impossible story presented by Berty's team. Did you believe Tyler Hamilton's twin excuse too? Because if you believe Berty, you have to believe Tyler's story. The likelihood of both stories being true is the same.

The rest of your mental gymnastics are equally amazing.