Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[Merckx index]

He said he was 7.5 kg overweight when he started the Canarian training camp.
The length of the camp was 10 days. (5th - 15th of january)

8 days later he started the Tour de San Luis and said he still had 3.5 kg overweight!
I´m not a math professor but from what I learned in school its a weight loss of 4 kg!!!
Its a weightloss of 4 kgs in almost 3 weeks, and NOT 7 kgs!!!!
Woohoo the guy must be superhuman on drugs...right?
WRONG!!! It´s a very normal weightloss with the right diet and correct training, its not even close to what would actually be possible by legal methods!

But of course I see the convience in changing the facts and continue the allegations and wishful thinking, and make a case out of nothing.

Good grief, I didn’t mean to imply Bert was taking CB now. After all the publicity over his positive, and with a decision about to be announced, he really would be nuts to do that.

My point was that if he came into this season 7 kg overweight, he very likely might have been that or more overweight two years ago, and might have taken CB to lose that weight faster.

Secondly, it would be a bit strange to extract blood this short before the Tour (especially the clenbuterol in mind). And more than already is, be a problem for and even in contradiction with the DEHP and the two-step transfusion theory. Extracting blood before the Tour should be followed by a transfusion immediately and would be very a strong signal for whole blood transfusion (and a cycle of those). It would almost certainly mean that WADA's theory could not be right, if the story of this man is true...

This has been my thinking. As I noted in my earlier post, the two-step transfusion theory apparently needed to account for the separate emergence of DEHP and CB requires separation of cells and plasma, which in turn points strongly to off-season withdrawal, not after the DL. That’s why I raised the 7 kg question. Obviously, Bert would not be 7 kg overweight in the middle of June.

However, a withdrawal following the DL certainly is not impossible. In fact, even riders who go through withdrawal-transfusion cycles throughout the season—rather than doing all the withdrawal in the offseason and storing the cells and plasma frozen—may still separate cells and plasma, rather than storing the blood whole. In fact, if the rider intends to transfuse fluid separately from cells--in order to keep the HT low--he might well want to save the plasma for this purpose.

The problem is that the plasma would probably be stored in a DEHP-containing bag, inconsistent with the pharmacokinetics in Bert’s case. As readers of this thread will know, I have suggested that the plasma could be freeze-dried and stored in some other kind of bag. Python thinks that this possibility would be dismissed by the arbs. Maybe, I don’t know. But if it’s possible for an off-season withdrawal, it could also be for a mid-season withdrawal. The obvious advantages of freeze-drying would be just as great for temporary storage as for long-term.

 

[BYOP88]

Roll on monday lunch time(Switzerland) and this will hopefully be finished. Regarding the big news today I think that Bertie is going down, those are the breaks I guess.

 

[palmerq]

isnt it to be announced the week beginning whatever date monday is, so it could be any time next week not just monday :S or more likely it'll be delayed again

 

[Nilsson]

You are believing the impossible story presented by Berty's team. Did you believe Tyler Hamilton's twin excuse too? Because if you believe Berty, you have to believe Tyler's story. The likelihood of both stories being true is the same.

The rest of your mental gymnastics are equally amazing.

You can't be serious...

- Chance to eat contaminated meat is at least 1 on 15000.
- Bert could show additional circumstances that make contaminaton more likely (at least the fact that the brother of the most likely supplier has already a clenbuterol violation in cattle, possibly problems in live stock arrests in Castilla Y Leon, the most likely source of Contador's meat, and possibly testing statistics showing Southern Europe has higher contamination or shooting a hole in statistics in general)
- Bert actually ate meat, that was brought from Spain (and thus wasn't normal routine, and tested positive. Facts that at least could be linked)
- Bert was actually one of a few who got tested in Cologne for clenbuterol during the Tour
- Bert probably being an almost isolated case of a Southern European athlete or athlete competing in Southern Europe sports event that has ever been tested in Cologne.
- The fact that this case is a contamination case. If the transfusion theory can't be proven (sufficiently), we have to accept the fact that on the balance of probabilities the contaminated theory (how unlikely it may be) is more probable...

We may not like it, we may not believe it (probably I don't) but we have to deal with it...

You can call it mental gymnastics (and it probably is) but I don't like it if my gut feeling takes over. It wouldn't be fair...

 

[sniper]

You can't be serious...

- Bert actually ate meat, that was brought from Spain (and thus wasn't normal routine, and tested positive. Facts that at least could be linked)

that's your gut feeling right there.
mine says he didn't eat meat.
-the others from astana who got tested accidentally did not eat the meat.
-AC is not a meat eater.
-why bring it in from spain if your in france?
-if the clen entered through the meat, AC c/should have done a hairtest to prove his innocence. i've seen no hairtest.
-etc.

ah, and the chances are slimmer than 1 to 15000

'Only once did clenbuterol show up in 83,203 animal samples tested by EU countries in 2008 and 2009, says the European Commission's directorate for health and consumer policy. Spain tested 19,431 samples in those years; none was positive for the drug.'

(quote from scribe, sorry, no link)

 

[Nilsson]

that's your gut feeling right there.
mine says he didn't eat meat.

Funny guy. It's a fact he ate meat, at least something we have to accept. He has a receipt, he has testimonies. If you want to argue all of that, be my guest but it isn't even worth trying and cannot be taken seriously

-the others from astana who got tested accidentally did not eat the meat.

Some guys (Bert and his friends) did, some guys didn't (Vino's group)...

-AC is not a meat eater.

Seriously?

-why bring it in from spain if your in france?

Not interesting. It happened, period. At least they can proof it. The official reason was that meat in the hotel was bad, and a friend of the cook who came to visit had been asked to bring meat from Spain...

-if the clen entered through the meat, AC c/should have done a hairtest to prove his innocence. i've seen no hairtest.

Not entirely. Contrary to a guy like Ovtcharov, Bert is tested regularly and has more data to work with (working both ways). Due to that the hair test wouldn't have helped him. Hence, the only reason Ovtcharov did it was because he was tested 'out of the blue', thus had to show it actually must have been a case of contamination and was told to do so by Wilhelm Schänzer. In the case of Contador, due to the sequence of negative testing, surrounding a positive, all parties involved already had to accept that it was a case of contamination. The only question now is, is it a case of contaminated meat or a contaminated transfusion...

 

[hrotha]

Funny guy. It's a fact he ate meat, at least something we have to accept. He has a receipt, he has testimonies. If you want to argue all of that, be my guest but it isn't even worth trying and cannot be taken seriously

It's not a proven fact, though. He has a receipt that says the meat was bought, and testimonies from friends and teammates - all of whom have an interest in seeing him walk. On the other hand, the way his official story goes, we are to believe he ate steak not two but three days in a row (including steak from Pau on the third day)... and yet his mom still said he'd be craving meat when he got back. It's an odd story.

 

[Publicus]

Nillson, I'm not sure from your post whether you are seriously considering AC's steak-story to have any merit. Are you?

Anyway, I would not give AC too much credit and would not look too far for links to clenbuterol.
We know he tested positive for it, we know he had troubles in the Dauphiné and needed to cut weight, we know he tested positive on the 2nd resday. We know he's not a meat-eater. We know the UCI gave him a couple of weeks to come up with the stake-tale. (E.g. Kimmage called AC's excuse an insult to the intelligence of cycling fans. I'd have to agree.)
Here's what and how it happened before the tour according to an Astana insider (not sure if you were around in the clinic when this piece was discussed, so I repost it):
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5...-transfusion-prior-to-the-Tour-de-France.aspx

I see no reason to assume anyone c/would make that story up and publish it in a non-cycling journal.
And AC never filed charges against the magazine.

He won the prologue and the Alpe d'Huez stage for a race he was DEFINITELY NOT peaking for. How do you decide that he had troubles? He's never won the Dauphine (nor from what I can tell, ever tried, when he was aiming for the TdF).

Did this insider testify? And I can see LOT'S of reasons why someone would make anonymous statements about a rider that had left the team under less than ideal circumstances. Also, too, the publisher didn't make the allegation, an anonymous insider made the allegation. I don't know the laws of the EU, but in the states, it is VERY difficult to force the press to divulge their sources. Very difficult.

 

[Sciocco]

It is indeed definetely Monday at around noon Swiss time. Hopefully no last minute changes. It has been like a long drawn out toothache at this stage and lets hope it finishes then so we can get on with talking about the new season.

I get the feeling that regardless of how this goes it will be a major topic for this entire season. Longer if it goes against ALBERTO.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Funny guy. It's a fact he ate meat, at least something we have to accept. He has a receipt, he has testimonies. If you want to argue all of that, be my guest but it isn't even worth trying and cannot be taken seriously

I have been following the last few pages with interest but without comment - however this deserves discussion.

Ok, it is not a fact that he ate meat - a receipt for meat bought in Spain was produced- however I will agree that it will be accepted. So, we will move on...

Some guys (Bert and his friends) did, some guys didn't (Vino's group)...

Seriously?

Not interesting. It happened, period. At least they can proof it. The official reason was that meat in the hotel was bad, and a friend of the cook who came to visit had been asked to bring meat from Spain...

Ya - which is why the cook went and bought meat at the market in Pau.
I went to find the original link - but it was discussed here at the time.

Not entirely. Contrary to a guy like Ovtcharov, Bert is tested regularly and has more data to work with (working both ways). Due to that the hair test wouldn't have helped him. Hence, the only reason Ovtcharov did it was because he was tested 'out of the blue', thus had to show it actually must have been a case of contamination and was told to do so by Wilhelm Schänzer. In the case of Contador, due to the sequence of negative testing, surrounding a positive, all parties involved already had to accept that it was a case of contamination. The only question now is, is it a case of contaminated meat or a contaminated transfusion...

A hair test would show approximately when clenbuterol was in the system - pretty easy to prove Berts theory.

To the other highlighted point - yet again you cling to "all parties" have to accept some contamination theory. They do not.

Contador has to show that clenbuterol was more likely to have come from eating the steak on July 20th then it was not. That is what this case hinges on.

 

[Fidolix]

that's your gut feeling right there.
mine says he didn't eat meat.
-the others from astana who got tested accidentally did not eat the meat.
-AC is not a meat eater.
-why bring it in from spain if your in france?
-if the clen entered through the meat, AC c/should have done a hairtest to prove his innocence. i've seen no hairtest.
-etc.

ah, and the chances are slimmer than 1 to 15000

(quote from scribe, sorry, no link)

Which means only 1% of all spanish meat are tested for Clen!!!
And this fact was also documented by Alberto´s laywers, in addition to this, it´s hillarious considering Spain had Europes biggest Clen scandal only few years back.
Is it relevant?
Yes of couse, unless you think a restriction would make all suppliers stop using the drug.

Do I believe the steak story?
Hell no, but legally it have to be taken into account, and statistically it´s possible.

And of couse he would do a hairtest since he didn´t have a clue the test would turn up positive and got the result a month later, so of course that make sence, too bad he didn´t save a chump of the meat as well so it could be tested to, -yes you right he must be guilty... for not having clairvoyant skills.

 

[Walkman]

Which means only 1% of all spanish meat are tested for Clen!!!
And this fact was also documented by Alberto´s laywers, in addition to this, it´s hillarious considering Spain had Europes biggest Clen scandal only few years back.
Is it relevant?
Yes of couse, unless you think a restriction would make all suppliers stop using the drug.

Do I believe the steak story?
Hell no, but legally it have to be taken into account, and statistically it´s possible.

You think that 1% is all from the same farm? Probably they do test farms from all over the country and if you do the math on the statistical chance that he would consume contaminated meat I think you will end up with a much smaller numer than 1 in 15000. It's just math and this time it' ain't working in AC's favour.

 

[Fidolix]

You think that 1% is all from the same farm? Probably they do test farms from all over the country and if you do the math on the statistical chance that he would consume contaminated meat I think you will end up with a much smaller numer than 1 in 15000. It's just math and this time it' ain't working in AC's favour.

It dosen´t matter, it´s still only 1% of all produced meat, and besides nobody knows how many suppliers still using the drug, only fact is, they still do find contaminated meat, and to determine how many suppliers who still use it, they would need to test all.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You think that 1% is all from the same farm? Probably they do test farms from all over the country and if you do the math on the statistical chance that he would consume contaminated meat I think you will end up with a much smaller numer than 1 in 15000. It's just math and this time it' ain't working in AC's favour.

And you don't think that maybe, just maybe, the farmers that get into those illegal procedures, don't do other illegal things, such as circumventing the testing? This has been argued by Contador's lawyers, too.

Besides, the meat that Alberto allegedly ate, had a number that didn't correspond with the size of the animal, and because of that even his private detective couldn't precisely backtrack the meat to the original farmer. So, the fact that the number of the animal doesn't correspond with its size, is a fair indication that something illegal and corrupt was/is going on at that farm. This isn't just a case of simple statistics.

 

[LaFlorecita]

-the others from astana who got tested accidentally did not eat the meat.
-AC is not a meat eater.
-why bring it in from spain if your in france?
-if the clen entered through the meat, AC c/should have done a hairtest to prove his innocence. i've seen no hairtest.
-etc.

-Only one got tested, and that was Vino. According to Alberto, the meat of the hotel was bad, therefore the cook asked the spanish guy to bring meat from Spain, as he was coming to visit anyway. Vino and his Kazakhs did not want to wait, so they ate the bad meat. Alberto and his Spaniards, and Tiralongo, I think, did wait, and ate the "good" meat from Spain.

-What the fvck is that about? And more importantly, how do you know? I've never seen it before, and I think I can safely say I know quite a lot about the guy.

-As argued by Nilsson, there was no need for such a thing. Sure, maybe they could've seen whether the clen entered his system in June or not, but if that had been negative, so no clen in June, people would argue the clen entered his system earlier, let's say in the off season.

 

[ChrisE]

How many days was he staying at this particular hotel? Long enough to determine the meat sucked, and to get his buddy to get some from Spain and bring it to him?

 

[El Pistolero]

It's not a proven fact, though. He has a receipt that says the meat was bought, and testimonies from friends and teammates - all of whom have an interest in seeing him walk. On the other hand, the way his official story goes, we are to believe he ate steak not two but three days in a row (including steak from Pau on the third day)... and yet his mom still said he'd be craving meat when he got back. It's an odd story.

I eat meat every day, what's weird about that?

During the six days of Ghent De Ketele ate cordon blue every single day. It's not that abnormal for proffesional athletes to eat the same thing day after day. A lot of them do it actually. You might find it odd, but it has little to do with doping. Hence your arguments would easily get blown away by one of Contador's expensive lawyers.

 

[LaFlorecita]

How many days was he staying at this particular hotel? Long enough to determine the meat sucked, and to get his buddy to get some from Spain and bring it to him?

You figure it out yourself. It was in Pau, around the second rest day.

Also, those events can be completed in a couple of hours. Cook has a look at the meat, thinks 'not that great', calls José Luis Lopez Cerron, the organiser of Castilla y Léon, and asks him to bring some meat with him, as he was coming anyway.

 

[Walkman]

It dosen´t matter, it´s still only 1% of all produced meat, and besides nobody knows how many suppliers still using the drug, only fact is, they still do find contaminated meat, and to determine how many suppliers who still use it, they would need to test all.

You are not a future engineer I take it? Because it does matter.


"Only once did clenbuterol show up in 83,203 animal samples tested by EU countries in 2008 and 2009, says the European Commission's directorate for health and consumer policy. Spain tested 19,431 samples in those years; none was positive for the drug."

It's not like they have many case in recent years. Unless there has been major findings in 2010 and 2011.

 

[sniper]

(...)
-As argued by Nilsson, (...)

-As argued by Kimmage, AC's story is an insult to the intelligence of each cycling fan. Now go figure, if you're not insulted by AC's story, it can mean two things....

 

[Walkman]

And you don't think that maybe, just maybe, the farmers that get into those illegal procedures, don't do other illegal things, such as circumventing the testing? This has been argued by Contador's lawyers, too.

Yeah, but this is like saying every dopers pays off the UCI to not test them at certain dates or just sweep their positive tests under the karpet a la Armstrong. Possibly, Yes. Highly unlikely, Yes. This is not an argument based on facts it's an personal opinion used to undermine the current system. You are grasping for straws. Or perhaps you think they are using masking agents and stuff?

Besides, the meat that Alberto allegedly ate, had a number that didn't correspond with the size of the animal, and because of that even his private detective couldn't precisely backtrack the meat to the original farmer. So, the fact that the number of the animal doesn't correspond with its size, is a fair indication that something illegal and corrupt was/is going on at that farm. This isn't just a case of simple statistics.

Do you have a source? Because this sound slika bogus to me.

 

[hrotha]

I eat meat every day, what's weird about that?

During the six days of Ghent De Ketele ate cordon blue every single day. It's not that abnormal for proffesional athletes to eat the same thing day after day. A lot of them do it actually. You might find it odd, but it has little to do with doping. Hence your arguments would easily get blown away by one of Contador's expensive lawyers.

You're not a professional athlete whose alibi goes out of the way to explain he ate steak two days in a row, acknowledging that was unusual (remember he said he ate the second day only because it was a gift and he wanted to humour López Cerrón and because it was too good to throw out?) and never mentioning the Pau meat he ate on the third day.

 

[LaFlorecita]

-As argued by Kimmage, AC's story is an insult to the intelligence of each cycling fan. Now go figure, if you're not insulted by AC's story, it can mean two things....

Oops, I meant to say as argued by Nilsson before...

And we've been over this intelligence thing before and that didn't end up well.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Yeah, but this is like saying every dopers pays off the UCI to not test them at certain dates or just sweep their positive tests under the karpet a la Armstrong. Possibly, Yes. Highly unlikely, Yes. This is not an argument based on facts it's an personal opinion used to undermine the current system. You are grasping for straws. Or perhaps you think they are using masking agents and stuff?

This is NO personal opinion, this is what has been said by Alberto's lawyers.

Do you have a source? Because this sound slika bogus to me.

I'm not going to browse through this whole thing again, but you'll find it somewhere in the resolution.

 

[El Pistolero]

You're not a professional athlete whose alibi goes out of the way to explain he ate steak two days in a row, acknowledging that was unusual (remember he said he ate the second day only because it was a gift and he wanted to humour López Cerrón and because it was too good to throw out?) and never mentioning the Pau meat he ate on the third day.

It's really not that unusual to eat leftover meat. I'm not going to throw away a good piece of meat when I can save it for later. I'm sorry, but this just wouldn't stand in court.

Like I said, a lot of cyclists do eat the same thing day after day. And from my understanding, Contador doesn't eat red meat anymore, but still things like chicken and such. I don't know why everyone thinks he always was or is now a vegetarian... He's not.

How many vegetarians do you know that have hunting as a hobby(not directed at you only, but to a few posters here who have been stating Contador never ate meat)?