Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[Walkman]

This is NO personal opinion, this is what has been said by Alberto's lawyers.

I didn't mean it necessary would be your opinion. Just because AC's lawyers says so doesn't make it true, it's just something they hope would be true so that they could used it in their equations so that the meat story wouldn't come across as so unblikely. It's just a tool to create confusion among those who are following AC's case, see the Arsmtrong toolbox. If there are an alternative explanations, how improbable it may be, there are always some people who are going to believe in it and argument for it.

 

[LaFlorecita]

I didn't mean it necessary would be your opinion. Just because AC's lawyers says so doesn't make it true, it's just something they hope would be true so that they could used it in their equations so that the meat story wouldn't come across as so unblikely. It's just a tool to create confusion among those who are following AC's case, see the Arsmtrong toolbox. If there are an alternative explanations, how improbable it may be, there are always some people who are going to believe in it and argument for it.

Fine, his team then, so lawyers and experts instead of just lawyers.

 

[Nilsson]

I have been following the last few pages with interest but without comment - however this deserves discussion.

Ok, it is not a fact that he ate meat - a receipt for meat bought in Spain was produced- however I will agree that it will be accepted. So, we will move on..

So it doesn't deserve discussion. We can not like it, we can not believe it, but it's nothing more than our gut feeling. The facts, from a legal point of view, are clear. We have to accept it...

Ya - which is why the cook went and bought meat at the market in Pau.
I went to find the original link - but it was discussed here at the time.]

Firstly, it doesn't rule out eating meat from Spain as well. Secondly, there has been a lot of confusion about this because of wrong translation. Thirdly, it's not important from a legal point of view, because of the testimonies and the receipt...

We can not like it, etc. but we have to deal with it...

A hair test would show approximately when clenbuterol was in the system - pretty easy to prove Berts theory.

To the other highlighted point - yet again you cling to "all parties" have to accept some contamination theory. They do not.

Contador has to show that clenbuterol was more likely to have come from eating the steak on July 20th then it was not. That is what this case hinges on.

Not it's not. WADA would still have pursued the transfusion theory. Since Contador (and I'm repeating myself, in the first half of 2010 alone) has been tested over 30 times, we already have to accept that he was clean in that period. WADA didn't create the two-step transfusion theory just for fun, it's because the had to...

Yes, everyone has to accept this is a contamination case. There are no facts, there is no proof to support otherwise.

Contador established his case. He has a receipt, he has testimonies, and at least the generally accepted chance that it is possible to eat contaminated meat (how impossible it might be). If he could bring some additional circumstances that make his theory likelier, and would be able shoot holes in the transfusion theory (for instance, a favorable polygraph test, not exceeding any limits in bio passport, no valid DEHP test, no corresponding pharmacokinetics, too tight testing schedule, etc.) he will walk...

Again, we may not like it, we may not believe it, but if that would be the case, we have to deal with it...

 

[hrotha]

It's really not that unusual to eat leftover meat. I'm not going to throw away a good piece of meat when I can save it for later. I'm sorry, but this just wouldn't stand in court.

Like I said, a lot of cyclists do eat the same thing day after day. And from my understanding, Contador doesn't eat red meat anymore, but still things like chicken and such. I don't know why everyone thinks he always was or is now a vegetarian... He's not.

How many vegetarians do you know that have hunting as a hobby(not directed at you only, but to a few posters here who have been stating Contador never ate meat)?

What are you talking about? Where did I say that would stand before a court, or that Contador didn't eat meat in general, much less that he was or is a vegetarian?

Again, you're disregarding the things Contador said or implied: that he only ate steak two days in a row because it was too good to throw out, and a gift from a friend, but that he wouldn't do that normally. You're also disregarding the info that he ate Pau meat on the third day, despite his explanation that local meat was awful and even though he had just eaten meat the two previous days. No, it's not proof, but it's fishy.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Again, you're disregarding the things Contador said or implied: that he only ate steak two days in a row because it was too good to throw out, and a gift from a friend, but that he wouldn't do that normally. You're also disregarding the info that he ate Pau meat on the third day, despite his explanation that local meat was awful and even though he had just eaten meat the two previous days. No, it's not proof, but it's fishy.

The hotel meat was awful. He ate meat the cook got from the local market on the third day.

 

[hrotha]

The hotel meat was awful. He ate meat the cook got from the local market on the third day.

Fair enough, I concede that point. But the rest still stands.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Fair enough, I concede that point. But the rest still stands.

True.
_____________

 

[El Pistolero]

What are you talking about? Where did I say that would stand before a court, or that Contador didn't eat meat in general, much less that he was or is a vegetarian?

Again, you're disregarding the things Contador said or implied: that he only ate steak two days in a row because it was too good to throw out, and a gift from a friend, but that he wouldn't do that normally. You're also disregarding the info that he ate Pau meat on the third day, despite his explanation that local meat was awful and even though he had just eaten meat the two previous days. No, it's not proof, but it's fishy.

It's not fishy, it's the most normal thing in the world. You would even find it fishy if Contador held his hand in front of his mouth when he has to sneeze. So just because he said it isn't something he normally does, it's fishy? Don't you do things sometimes you don't normally do? Again, you're just trying to hard here. Contador probably has to give multiple interviews every day, so if you look hard enough you'll find a contradictive statement from him somewhere... Bravo, you just proved he's fishy

Besides, you're basing everything from the media and we all know how reliable that can be sometimes.

As for the local meat, that's not even true.

 

[hrotha]

It's not fishy, it's the most normal thing in the world. You would even find it fishy if Contador held his hand in front of his mouth when he has to sneeze. So just because he said it isn't something he normally does, it's fishy? Don't you do things sometimes you don't normally do? Again, you're just trying to hard here. Contador probably has to give multiple interviews every day, so if you look hard enough you'll find a contradictive statement from him somewhere... Bravo, you just proved he's fishy

As for the local meat, that's not even true.

This info doesn't come from random interviews. It comes from press releases over which Contador and his lawlyers most likely obsessed over.

 

[sniper]

Los productores españoles de carne dudan de la versión del ciclista

http://www.elmundo.es/elmundodeporte/2010/09/30/ciclismo/1285873400.html

Las dudas de los carniceros

Por su parte, los productores de carne vacuna de España dudan de Contador. "El equipo técnico de la Asociación se ha puesto en contacto con científicos expertos en toxicología para ver la posibilidad real de que el consumo de carne con clenbuterol pudiera ser la causante de la presencia de trazas (50 picogramos) de esta sustancia en la orina de Contador", comunicó la Asociación Española de Productores de Vacuno de Carne (ASOPROVAC).

"En el supuesto caso de que fuera así, ASOPROVAC exige a las autoridades sanitarias competentes que, haciendo uso de los sistemas de trazabilidad vigentes, pongan en marcha los mecanismos oportunos para exigir responsabilidades, pues el empleo fraudulento y la puesta en el mercado de clembuterol está prohibido y duramente penalizado en España, incluso con penas de cárcel", agrega la nota del sector.

I don't recall any such measurements being taken. i wonder why?

On the other hand, Contador got firm support from Mr. and Mrs. Clean, Bruyneel and Riis, both of whom trust the guy from Pinto is innocent.

 

[El Pistolero]

This info doesn't come from random interviews. It comes from press releases over which Contador and his lawlyers most likely obsessed over.

You mean the press releases that are stories altered by Contador's team of lawyers to maximise his chances of walking away free?

It's very much possible that Contador has indeed no clue about how the clenbuterol got in his system and is now fabricating a story that maximizes his chances of getting off the hook. Of course, it doesn't mean he's clean even if the clen only got in his system because of contaminated meat, but that's all CAS got.

 

[sniper]

El cocinero del equipo Astana en el pasado Tour de Francia, Paco Olalla, aseguró que la carne que ingirió Alberto Contador, contaminada con clembuterol, la cocinó "en la vitrocerámica del autobús del equipo" porque el cocinero del hotel no le dejó entrar en la cocina y sólo la probaron "los ciclistas españoles".http://www.marca.com/2010/09/30/ciclismo/1285847818.html

Yep...sounds plausible....

 

[sniper]

"Jose trajo la carne envasada al vacío y unas botellas de vino, yo hice los filetes en el autobús y los corredores kazakos del equipo bajaron antes a cenar y comieron la carne del hotel, estaba tan dura que 'Vino' (Alexandre Vinokourov) casi no la probó y solo cenó pasta", subrayo el cocinero burgalés.
http://www.marca.com/2010/09/30/ciclismo/1285847818.html

doesn't sound far-fetched at all! The French kitchen is known for its lousy pieces of meat, especially when the tour caravan passes by. They purposely **** on the meat in those comercially most lucrative days of the year.

 

[Fidolix]

You are not a future engineer I take it? Because it does matter.


"Only once did clenbuterol show up in 83,203 animal samples tested by EU countries in 2008 and 2009, says the European Commission's directorate for health and consumer policy. Spain tested 19,431 samples in those years; none was positive for the drug."

It's not like they have many case in recent years. Unless there has been major findings in 2010 and 2011.

lool what? What does matter?

Spain tested 19,431 samples in 2 years, accordingly that equals to 1% of the total meat production. But I guess you refer to the lack of positive tests, but it´s not my point, I´m referring to the argument AC´s lawyers did, that only 1% of the meat get tested, meaning the possibility of contaminated meat is present, statistically!
So I guess the argument would mean there are 99% chance of finding contaminated meat.

And please walkman, don´t be a troll and make lame comments about what or what not my personal profession is, just stick with the topic my friend.

 

[Nilsson]

http://www.marca.com/2010/09/30/ciclismo/1285847818.html

Yep...sounds plausible....

It's even standard policy. Almost all team chefs cook in their own vehicles, because hotel kitchens are filthy or because they're are not allowed to work in it. So yes, it's plausible. More importantly, it doesn't even matter: from a legal point of view it's irrelevant and it won't play any role in this case...

The same goes for the farmers you quote. Bert also got some farmers voting for him. It doesn't really matter. You could also ask questions about the arrests in Castilla Y Leon and the seizure of more than 16.000 kg of meat in february 2011. There seem to be some big problems with registration there, Berts meat included. That is what could contamination look more likely for CAS.

I guess your problem is that you let your gut feeling speak for you. Of course his story his lame, and he's a cyclist for god's sake (even a multiple GT-winner) you can't get them much more suspicious, can you? But from a legal point of view most of it is totally irrelevant, and that's what counts.

It's not about what we may believe or think, but about the facts we have to accept. Facts that do not seem to clearly point into one direction, but every single time look to work both ways. It's making this case incredibly complex, unless you rule by gut instead of combined science and rules...

 

[Ferminal]

lool what? What does matter?

Spain tested 19,431 samples in 2 years, accordingly that equals to 1% of the total meat production. But I guess you refer to the lack of positive tests, but it´s not my point, I´m referring to the argument AC´s lawyers did, that only 1% of the meat get tested, meaning the possibility of contaminated meat is present, statistically!

20,000 random samples and no positives? Statistically wouldn't it indicate the likelihood of finding contaminated meat in Spain is very low? Of course you can never rule it out completely though.

 

[sniper]

It's even standard policy. Almost all team chefs cook in their own vehicles, because hotel kitchens are filthy or because they're are not allowed to work in it. So yes, it's plausible. More importantly, it doesn't even matter: from a legal point of view it's irrelevant and it won't play any role in this case...

Reread the cook's statement.
So they went to the hotel, asked "Can we use your kitchen?", and where told to p#ss off. That's what AC's cook is implying.
plausible indeed.

 

[roundabout]

I am glad that it should be mostly over in 2 days time.

IIRC Contador's camp themselves suggest that it's possible that up to 10% of meat is contaminated but that is probably based on the faulty statistics where 99% of the samples aren't tested.

 

[El Pistolero]

20,000 random samples and no positives? Statistically wouldn't it indicate the likelihood of finding contaminated meat in Spain is very low? Of course you can never rule it out completely though.

How many times did Lance Armstrong test positive?

How many times did Alejandro - epo bloodbag- Valverde test positive for blood doping or epo?

How many times did Scarponi test positive?

How many times did Ivan Basso test positive?

How many times did Johan Museeuw test positive?

How many times did Floyd - I doped all the time - test positive?

How many times did Frank - I'm apparantly the most gullible person in the world - Schleck test positive?

And lastly, in this highly globalised world, food can be imported. And we all know how corrupted some countries can be

I bet tennis is the cleanest sport in the world. The only tennis player that I know that tested positive is Agassi. I bet all these cows have been tested by the lab of Cologne as well

 

[Ferminal]

How many times did Lance Armstrong test positive?

How many times did Alejandro - epo bloodbag- Valverde test positive for blood doping or epo?

How many times did Scarponi test positive?

How many times did Ivan Basso test positive?

How many times did Johan Museeuw test positive?

How many times did Floyd - I doped all the time - test positive?

How many times did Frank - I'm apparantly the most gullible person in the world - Schleck test positive?

And lastly, in this highly globalised world, food can be imported. And we all know how corrupted some countries can be

I bet tennis is the cleanest sport in the world. The only tennis player that I know that tested positive is Agassi. I bet all these cows have been tested by the lab of Cologne as well

I'm only commenting on the statistics, that is all, which of course are dependent on the reliability of the sampling.

 

[Publicus]

20,000 random samples and no positives? Statistically wouldn't it indicate the likelihood of finding contaminated meat in Spain is very low? Of course you can never rule it out completely though.

The one thing I've never seen presented with any of these statistics is the margin of error. Also, has anyone ever discussed the testing protocols? Are they more or less accurate than the testing used by the WADA labs? Do they conduct random testing of LIVE animals for CB? And if not, why not?

 

[El Pistolero]

I'm only commenting on the statistics, that is all, which of course are dependent on the reliability of the sampling.

Why wouldn't a farmer be able to beat these doping tests? Cyclists seem to be very good at it. So do you really want to use doping tests as a statistic? We all know how that will work out. And I doubt these cows get tested with the same sophisticated equipment cyclists get tested with.

 

[sniper]

Why wouldn't a farmer be able to beat these doping tests? Cyclists seem to be very good at it. So do you really want to use doping tests as a statistic? We all know how that will work out. And I doubt these cows get tested with the same sophisticated equipment cyclists get tested with.

your logic fails desperately.
AC claims his positive results from a CLENNED-up-cow. The cow must have been much more contaminated than AC's blood, because the dose was obviously diluted going from the meet into AC's blood.
So that cow would surely have tested positive for CLEN also with much less sophisticated testing equipment.
Now, we know as a fact that the chances of finding such a CLEN-positive-cow in Spain, at least in 2009, were less than 1:15000.
AC happened to bump into this 1 cow out of 15000+ cows.

 

[El Pistolero]

your logic fails desperately.
AC claims his positive results from a CLENNED-up-cow. The cow must have been much more contaminated than AC's blood. So much is clear. So that cow would have tested positive for CLEN also with much less sophisticated testing equipment.
Now, we know as a fact that the chances of finding such a cow in Spain, at least in 2009, were less than 1:15000. So AC happened to bump into this 1 cow out of 15000+ cows.

That's why we've been hearing all these stories about clen farmers getting busted in Spain and not any other country in Europe. Coincidence or is there really a problem with Spanish farmers?

You don't know how these cows are getting tested, you only know the result. So at least my logic isn't based on empty assumptions. If it really was as easy as you suggest it is, then Contador would have been banned a long time ago already.

Like I said, according to your logic tennis is the cleanest sport in the world as no one ever tests positive. Why doesn't this statistic count, but the clen one does?

 

[sniper]

That's why we've been hearing all these stories about clen farmers getting busted in Spain and not any other country in Europe. Coincidence or is there really a problem with Spanish farmers?

You don't know how these cows are getting tested, you only know the result. So at least my logic isn't based on empty assumptions. If it really was as easy as you suggest it is, then Contador would have been banned a long time ago already.

Like I said, according to your logic tennis is the cleanest sport in the world as no one ever tests positive. Why doesn't this statistic count, but the clen one does?

If AC gets off, he's done it the Armstrong way.
It's not about the evidence.