Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[Benotti69]

That's why we've been hearing all these stories about clen farmers getting busted in Spain and not any other country in Europe. Coincidence or is there really a problem with Spanish farmers?

You don't know how these cows are getting tested, you only know the result. So at least my logic isn't based on empty assumptions. If it really was as easy as you suggest it is, then Contador would have been banned a long time ago already.

Like I said, according to your logic tennis is the cleanest sport in the world as no one ever tests positive. Why doesn't this statistic count, but the clen one does?

I have yet to read anything about clen farming apart from what posters have been writing about in the clinic.

But we will now soon enough.

 

[Walkman]

How many times did Lance Armstrong test positive?

How many times did Alejandro - epo bloodbag- Valverde test positive for blood doping or epo?

How many times did Scarponi test positive?

How many times did Ivan Basso test positive?

How many times did Johan Museeuw test positive?

How many times did Floyd - I doped all the time - test positive?

How many times did Frank - I'm apparantly the most gullible person in the world - Schleck test positive?

And lastly, in this highly globalised world, food can be imported. And we all know how corrupted some countries can be

I bet tennis is the cleanest sport in the world. The only tennis player that I know that tested positive is Agassi. I bet all these cows have been tested by the lab of Cologne as well

Are you seriolusly comparing high profile cyclists with a ton of experience, money and a whole team, including doctors, to help them avoiding getting caught, with spanish farmers?

Furthermore, those guys you listed probably mostly blood doped wich as of today, isn't detecteble via testing. And since there is no need for the farmers to blood dope their animals I don't really get your point. What are you trying to say?

 

[Publicus]

Are you seriolusly comparing high profile cyclists with a ton of experience, money and a whole team, including doctors, to help them avoiding getting caught, with spanish farmers?

Furthermore, those guys you listed probably mostly blood doped wich as of today, isn't detecteble via testing. And since there is no need for the farmers to blood dope their animals I don't really get your point. What are you trying to say?

Do you really believe that farmers have NO incentive to use drugs to enhance their livestock yield? There's a reason the EU tests the meat and it's not for giggles. What I'm curious about is why the EU doesn't conduct testing on live animals since, as I understand it from folks on this forum, that the farmers cease using the CB prior to butchering the animals (there's a better term for that, but I can't think of it right now) to make sure the CB is out of livestock's system. In lots of ways, the EU testing regime doesn't seem much more effective in preventing CB use than the bio-passport.

 

[Walkman]

And please walkman, don´t be a troll and make lame comments about what or what not my personal profession is, just stick with the topic my friend.

Yeah, I agree, that was kind of childish, I apologize. I will respond to the rest of you post later, have some stuffs to do now.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's even standard policy. Almost all team chefs cook in their own vehicles, because hotel kitchens are filthy or because they're are not allowed to work in it. So yes, it's plausible. More importantly, it doesn't even matter: from a legal point of view it's irrelevant and it won't play any role in this case...

That is simply not true - most Chefs work in the hotel kitchens. Leopard are the first team to have a dedicated kitchen for the Chef so that they do not need to use the kitchen.

The same goes for the farmers you quote. Bert also got some farmers voting for him. It doesn't really matter. You could also ask questions about the arrests in Castilla Y Leon and the seizure of more than 16.000 kg of meat in february 2011. There seem to be some big problems with registration there, Berts meat included. That is what could contamination look more likely for CAS.

The first question would be - had any of that meat clenbuterol? The answer appears to be no.

I guess your problem is that you let your gut feeling speak for you. Of course his story his lame, and he's a cyclist for god's sake (even a multiple GT-winner) you can't get them much more suspicious, can you? But from a legal point of view most of it is totally irrelevant, and that's what counts.

It's not about what we may believe or think, but about the facts we have to accept. Facts that do not seem to clearly point into one direction, but every single time look to work both ways. It's making this case incredibly complex, unless you rule by gut instead of combined science and rules...

If the above was true then Contador will get sanctioned.

CAS do not have the luxury of shrugging and going, this is too complex to call - let him free. They have to satisfy themselves that food contamination is more than probable than not probable.
As I said before, the case ultimately hinges on ACs Bio-statistician showing that food contamination is the probable theory.

 

[Walkman]

Do you really believe that farmers have NO incentive to use drugs to enhance their livestock yield?

Yes. But what are the penalties for being caught? In cycling we know from history that bringing down big dopes is hard and that make the "risk and reward"-analasys quite simple, as is seems because of all the cases in recent years and because of what we have been told by convicted dopers (Landis, Khol etc..).

To me it seems we get down to whether or not you believe that the testing system in the farming industry is less effective than the anti-doping system in cycling?

There's a reason the EU tests the meat and it's not for giggles. What I'm curious about is why the EU doesn't conduct testing on live animals since, as I understand it from folks on this forum, that the farmers cease using the CB prior to butchering the animals (there's a better term for that, but I can't think of it right now) to make sure the CB is out of livestock's system. In lots of ways, the EU testing regime doesn't seem much more effective in preventing CB use than the bio-passport.

If that's the case it seems a bit weird but then again, I am no expert in these matters.

 

[roundabout]

In the EU live animals are tested. Not sure where the idea that they aren't comes from.

 

[Publicus]

Yes. But what are the penalties for being caught? In cycling we know from history that bringing down big dopes is hard and that make the "risk and reward"-analasys quite simple, as is seems because of all the cases in recent years and because of what we have been told by convicted dopers (Landis, Khol etc..).

To me it seems we get down to whether or not you believe that the testing system in the farming industry is less effective than the anti-doping system in cycling?



If that's the case it seems a bit weird but then again, I am no expert in these matters.

I presume the penalties range from fines all the way up to criminal prosecution, but the risk of getting caught (under the current testing regime) is very low in my opinion. As I think about it, the current testing regime doesn't discourage use, so much as it encourages the ranchers to ensure that the CB is out of the animals system prior to butchering.

 

[Publicus]

In the EU live animals are tested. Not sure where the idea that they aren't comes from.

Well that answers my question. Can you provide a link?

EDIT: the reason I thought that live animals were not tested is because the articles I've read said that they tested animal samples. Maybe it was a bad translation.

 

[roundabout]

Ah, found it.

http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/chemicalsafety/residues/council_directive_96_23ec.pdf

 

[peterst6906]

What I'm curious about is why the EU doesn't conduct testing on live animals since, as I understand it from folks on this forum, that the farmers cease using the CB prior to butchering the animals

There's no need to test the live animals because we don't eat the live meat. Only the carcass needs to be tested, because the testing isn't about the animal safety. It's about human safety.

 

[Publicus]

Ah, found it.

http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/chemicalsafety/residues/council_directive_96_23ec.pdf

Thanks. Weird that they talk about animal samples when discussing the 2008 and 2009 testing. Anywho, does anyone know if there has been subsequent testing?

 

[python]

from what i read (i believe this was previously posted as well), the testing system of farming animals is similar, in principle, to the testing of athletes - that is, screening tests, IF positive,are followed by the confirmation tests. the biggest difference is of course that both live and slaughtered animals are tested.

it is thought that animal doping is done by mixing clen with their water.

screening tests are conducted on urine. confirmation tests are conducted on urine, retina, meat and liver. by the very definition, screening tests are less specific and, as most cheaters in sports know, are easier fly under.

it is simply against human nature to assume that sophisticated cheating has seized and some farmers stopped thinking about the ways to beat tests.

how much of this is pertinent to contador is for the cas to deside.

 

[The Hitch]

It is indeed definetely Monday at around noon Swiss time. Hopefully no last minute changes. It has been like a long drawn out toothache at this stage and lets hope it finishes then so we can get on with talking about the new season.

Im going to take a bottle of Johnny Walker Black to uni on Monday.

For celebration or sorrow, I do not yet know.

PS, La Florecita, best get the white doves ready.

Just in case

 

[LaFlorecita]

Im going to take a bottle of Johnny Walker Black to uni on Monday.

For celebration or sorrow, I do not yet know.

PS, La Florecita, best get the white doves ready.

Just in case

I'm nervous as hell.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Reality just hit me like a bomb. There is a fair chance I won't see Alberto race for the next two years. Just.... Wow.

 

[Nilsson]

That is simply not true - most Chefs work in the hotel kitchens. Leopard are the first team to have a dedicated kitchen for the Chef so that they do not need to use the kitchen.

It probably depends on interpretation. All teams that I know, that really work with their own chefs, have their own vehicles and are working that way for years. Leopard is definitely not the first, nor an example. Teams are doing this for quite some time now. It all started with filthy kitchens and bad products, teams bringing their own food and chefs. Lots of (hotel) chefs do not appreciate others to take over the place, which resulted in creative cooking in Team buses and later on entire mobile kitchens...

Rabobank and Lotto, for instance, have shared a vehicle for years, because kitchens were filthy or they weren't welcome to work in there, and since two years each have a vehicle (still in cooperation with the same company). The same goes for lots of teams. Of course the Bruyneel teams, Team Saxo has their own vehicle, Garmin has a mobile kitchen for some years now (since 2010 a new van, if I remember correctly) and even most of the French teams have their own kitchen, as far as I know. Europcar even has a mobile kitchen and dining room, already since 2008 (when it was Bouyges)...

The first question would be - had any of that meat clenbuterol? The answer appears to be no.

We will probably never know, because it didn't enter the food chain and will never be reported. Only judicial proceedings will be opened, in time (but that could take years) or if something comes up trough Bert's PI (in the CAS-case) we will maybe hear something of it. Fact is that registration fraud is problematic for tracing back origin of the meat and testing (history).

More importantly, even in the scenario all samples (taken from this seizure) are clean and are reported as such, it still has to be taken into account somehow that the risk to fraud and contamination is higher than expected from regular testing statistics...

CAS do not have the luxury of shrugging and going, this is too complex to call - let him free. They have to satisfy themselves that food contamination is more than probable than not probable.

Agree, unless WADA can prove a transfusion, has conclusive pharmacokinetics (which isn't that simple) and Bert cannot counter it enough. Than the balance would probably go to a ban...

As I said before, the case ultimately hinges on ACs Bio-statistician showing that food contamination is the probable theory.

In my opinion the Bio-statistician can only lay a solid base for establishing his case, combined with additional circumstances, testimonies, etc. In the end I think it's making the transfusion theory look less likely what is most important for Contador to influence the balance of probabilities...

 

[Fidolix]

Yeah, I agree, that was kind of childish, I apologize. I will respond to the rest of you post later, have some stuffs to do now.

Apology accepted.

 

[Fidolix]

That is simply not true - most Chefs work in the hotel kitchens. Leopard are the first team to have a dedicated kitchen for the Chef so that they do not need to use the kitchen.

Actually Saxo bank was the first bringing in a kitchen wagon in 2009´s TdF.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It probably depends on interpretation. All teams that I know, that really work with their own chefs, have their own vehicles and are working that way for years. Leopard is definitely not the first, nor an example. Teams are doing this for quite some time now. It all started with filthy kitchens and bad products, teams bringing their own food and chefs. Lots of (hotel) chefs do not appreciate others to take over the place, which resulted in creative cooking in Team buses and later on entire mobile kitchens...

Rabobank and Lotto, for instance, have shared a vehicle for years, because kitchens were filthy or they weren't welcome to work in there, and since two years each have a vehicle (still in cooperation with the same company). The same goes for lots of teams. Of course the Bruyneel teams, Team Saxo has their own vehicle, Garmin has a mobile kitchen for some years now (since 2010 a new van, if I remember correctly) and even most of the French teams have their own kitchen, as far as I know. Europcar even has a mobile kitchen and dining room, already since 2008 (when it was Bouyges)...

While some teams have a place where they can cook, for the most part they still cook within the hotel. I can certainly understand buying in their own produce but thats not an issue here.

As for Contador - well their Chef at the Tour was Paco Olalla, here is what h said back in 2010:

Olalla goes “from hotel to hotel,” scarcely even seeing any cyclists who are not members of the Kazakh team. “Sometimes I go to the market,” he says.

We will probably never know, because it didn't enter the food chain and will never be reported. Only judicial proceedings will be opened, in time (but that could take years) or if something comes up trough Bert's PI (in the CAS-case) we will maybe hear something of it. Fact is that registration fraud is problematic for tracing back origin of the meat and testing (history).

While that is certainly correct there appears to be no issue with the particular meat that Contador consumed.

More importantly, even in the scenario all samples (taken from this seizure) are clean and are reported as such, it still has to be taken into account somehow that the risk to fraud and contamination is higher than expected from regular testing statistics...


Agree, unless WADA can prove a transfusion, has conclusive pharmacokinetics (which isn't that simple) and Bert cannot counter it enough. Than the balance would probably go to a ban...

In my opinion the Bio-statistician can only lay a solid base for establishing his case, combined with additional circumstances, testimonies, etc. In the end I think it's making the transfusion theory look less likely what is most important for Contador to influence the balance of probabilities...

The opposite appear to be the case.
Even if WADA could 'prove' a theory (which is almost impossible) and everything lined up - if Contadors team, though their Bio-statistician can show that the statistics of food contamination work in his favour, then he would probably be cleared.
If neither side can 'prove' their case then Contador gets sanctioned.

 

[sniper]

It's even standard policy.

ah, really?

It probably depends on interpretation.

it probably does:

As for Contador - well their Chef at the Tour was Paco Olalla, here is what h said back in 2010:

...............

 

[LaFlorecita]

I'm so nervous.... Tomorrow, after college, I'm going to find out...

 

[LaFlorecita]

Intersting piece on Velonews saying "the longer a high-profile investigation drags on, the greater the propensity for leaks and by consequence, the great the chance of a mistrial or of a case being dropped".

Opinion: Absolution of Alberto a perilous precedent

The whole article makes me go . But what confuses me most, is that they changed the title from something to do with Armstrong to something to do with Alberto. I was like, "Hey, another article" but it's just the same.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Read the piece from velonews above. It should calm your nerves some bit.

Really? I don't understand one bit of it. That probably has something to do with how nervous I am.

 

[Ferminal]

The whole article makes me go . But what confuses me most, is that they changed the title from something to do with Armstrong to something to do with Alberto. I was like, "Hey, another article" but it's just the same.

Really? I don't understand one bit of it. That probably has something to do with how nervous I am.

It's not your fault, it's Anthony Tan - not many people understand what he writes in his articles.