Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[BroDeal]

Having said that, it is acceptable to dislike his character, and in this superficial reality TV age that regrettably counts for something. But we can't deny he is one of the greats. Even pros that dislike him greatly grudgingly accept that.

To be one of the greats, a rider needs results. Armstrong has a surprising paucity of results past 1998. Almost nothing but a couple of mountain bike races. The riders of the era were Heras, Ullrich, Simoni, Basso, Menchov, Savoldelli, Contador, all riders with multiple grand tour wins.

The only thing Armstrong will be remembered for is being the greatest sports fraud of all time. People will remember him like Shoeless Joe Jackson, when they think of him at all.

 

[Ferminal]

I deleted the last few posts which were the result of a banned member.

 

[Spider1964]

So Lance has done no more harm tham Moncoutie or Bassons?Wake up yourself.

Shades1 has no idea who Moncoutie or Bassons is... So you go wake up yourself

 

[Benotti69]

flame my post all you like , ............

its a shame and i do not agree with it , but i do accept it .

for me LA is the best rider thats ever lived !!

I bet one of your arms is bigger than the other

 

[86TDFWinner]

Give me the name of another rider who spread rumors that a female employee was a team prostitute.

Give me the name of another rider who sued people for telling the truth about his doping.

Give me the name of another rider who ratted on rivals because they were performing better than him.

Give me the name of another rider who bribed the UCI to the tune of at least $125K.

Give me the name of another rider who fired teammates because they would not dope or even when they would not dope to the degree that he thought they should.

Give me the name of another rider who committed perjury in order to commit insurance fraud.

Until you can show that most riders were do those things then Armstrong did significantly more wrong than the others.

Dont forget:

HE went out of his way to take down an american icon/legend(and failed)

Accused same icon of "doping too".....

Just thought I'd add a few more to your wonderful list(not that they needed adding mind you, good job).

 

[86TDFWinner]

Give me the name of another rider who spread rumors that a female employee was a team prostitute.

Give me the name of another rider who sued people for telling the truth about his doping.

Give me the name of another rider who ratted on rivals because they were performing better than him.

Give me the name of another rider who bribed the UCI to the tune of at least $125K.

Give me the name of another rider who fired teammates because they would not dope or even when they would not dope to the degree that he thought they should.

Give me the name of another rider who committed perjury in order to commit insurance fraud.

Until you can show that most riders were do those things then Armstrong did significantly more wrong than the others.

Brilliant! I totally agree(crickets chirp)

 

[shades1]

i apologize that my post has not got down well , and some of the reactions are only fair as everyone is fully entitled to there opinion .

i guess its because i idolized LA so much during his career that i wont fully except the full flow of his actions , it really upset me when all this got revealed and i guess i have acted like a best friend would and defended him no matter what .

i know what he has done has ripped the heart out of the sport but i just cant bring myself to turn on him even though most of the world has .

he was my idol , its not easy to just abandon that fact !!

 

[sniper]

for me LA is the best rider thats ever lived !!

Symptoms of hypersleep from August 2005 to present?

 

[D-Queued]

i apologize that my post has not got down well , and some of the reactions are only fair as everyone is fully entitled to there opinion .

i guess its because i idolized LA so much during his career that i wont fully except the full flow of his actions , it really upset me when all this got revealed and i guess i have acted like a best friend would and defended him no matter what .

i know what he has done has ripped the heart out of the sport but i just cant bring myself to turn on him even though most of the world has .

he was my idol , its not easy to just abandon that fact !!

You don't have to abandon at all. You simply need to indulge in self humor.

As far as I am concerned, Indurain never doped and I just don't pay any attention to anyone on that point. AFAIK Indurain achieved an average of 508 watts to set his hour record due to his foot size.

(we both have the same height and foot size)

Dave.

 

[Oldman]

i apologize that my post has not got down well , and some of the reactions are only fair as everyone is fully entitled to there opinion .

i guess its because i idolized LA so much during his career that i wont fully except the full flow of his actions , it really upset me when all this got revealed and i guess i have acted like a best friend would and defended him no matter what .

i know what he has done has ripped the heart out of the sport but i just cant bring myself to turn on him even though most of the world has .

he was my idol , its not easy to just abandon that fact !!

That's the problem with idolatry...they are human beings. For many here with direct personal experience LA and Thom Weisel's fraud was evident from his most early days. Acceptance is one of the steps...somewhere around grieving.

 

[D-Queued]

...

he was my idol , its not easy to just abandon that fact !!

You aren't the only one struggling with his legacy. Here is what a couple of Vancouver hacks had to say - both trying to see the good in Livestrong (and both apparently oblivious to how Livestrong.com lines Lance's pocket):

CC: The final unmasking of the uber-arrogant Armstrong was both long overdue and crushing to those who lost their hearts and souls to the kingdom built on his lies. The Livestrong cancer foundation lives on, but without its (false) inspiration, who bullied and intimidated and bludgeoned his accusers for all those years, when a simple "I'm sorry" would have saved his reputation. Some time when you want to lose all your remaining illusions about him, read the work of the incredible David Walsh of the Sunday Times. It's an eye-opener.

IM: I long ago lost faith in Armstrong, but not Livestrong. To me, Livestrong isn't about Armstrong; it's about the conviction to fight cancer. It's about hope. Armstrong's foundation raised a half-billion dollars. I wished he had ridden clean, although Armstrong's greatest faults were deceitfulness and arrogance, not merely cheating.

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Put an end to the notion of 'fighting cancer'.

No one 'fights cancer'. I don't even know what it means.

Fighting cancer is 'giving money' nothing more.

 

[D-Queued]

Put an end to the notion of 'fighting cancer'.

No one 'fights cancer'. I don't even know what it means.

Fighting cancer is 'giving money' nothing more.

Fighting cancer is a great way to get six and seven figure appearance fees from charities.

Dave.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

I sure as hell am no Lance fan but the shat he has been getting the last year even has me going like 'hell, he too is just a human being, let him alone'.

Yes, the man has made mistakes, but, who has not? This Lance - crushing is getting a little too big in my book. The guy is no mass murderer. He doped to get to his high - winning - just like other cyclists in the past and present. And yes, it looks like he was part of a spinn where others thought they were forced to dope too, but hey, those guys had a choice, just like the riders who did not want to dope.

Or are Landis/Hamilton/Heras/Hincapie all the victim of this mass murderer? Armstrong did not kill cycling, the UCI and IOC [lets give Conconi money to come to an EPO test ] did.

Armstrong is the new Ricardo Ricco.

 

[D-Queued]

I sure as hell am no Lance fan but the shat he has been getting the last year even has me going like 'hell, he too is just a human being, let him alone'.

Yes, the man has made mistakes, but, who has not? This Lance - crushing is getting a little too big in my book. The guy is no mass murderer. He doped to get to his high - winning - just like other cyclists in the past and present. And yes, it looks like he was part of a spinn where others thought they were forced to dope too, but hey, those guys had a choice, just like the riders who did not want to dope.

Or are Landis/Hamilton/Heras/Hincapie all the victim of this mass murderer? Armstrong did not kill cycling, the UCI and IOC [lets give Conconi money to come to an EPO test ] did.

Armstrong is the new Ricardo Ricco.

No. No mass murderer. Rather, the words Grifter and Charlatan come to mind.

He did show up locally to pocket $100,000 from the local Cancer Society alone. For that and other endorsements, he completed about three blocks of a much advertised 'Ride with Lance.

Perhaps he was distracted by someone on the roadside that resembled his mother.

Dave.

 

[hondated]

Sorry but the fact that he has yet to admit to being a doper and apologise to all those who' s dreams and reputations he has crushed he deserves all of the vitriol he is receiving.

I sure as hell am no Lance fan but the shat he has been getting the last year even has me going like 'hell, he too is just a human being, let him alone'.

Yes, the man has made mistakes, but, who has not? This Lance - crushing is getting a little too big in my book. The guy is no mass murderer. He doped to get to his high - winning - just like other cyclists in the past and present. And yes, it looks like he was part of a spinn where others thought they were forced to dope too, but hey, those guys had a choice, just like the riders who did not want to dope.

Or are Landis/Hamilton/Heras/Hincapie all the victim of this mass murderer? Armstrong did not kill cycling, the UCI and IOC [lets give Conconi money to come to an EPO test ] did.

Armstrong is the new Ricardo Ricco.

 

[Zweistein]

I sure as hell am no Lance fan but the shat he has been getting the last year even has me going like 'hell, he too is just a human being, let him alone'.

Yes, the man has made mistakes, but, who has not? This Lance - crushing is getting a little too big in my book. The guy is no mass murderer. He doped to get to his high - winning - just like other cyclists in the past and present. And yes, it looks like he was part of a spinn where others thought they were forced to dope too, but hey, those guys had a choice, just like the riders who did not want to dope.

Or are Landis/Hamilton/Heras/Hincapie all the victim of this mass murderer? Armstrong did not kill cycling, the UCI and IOC [lets give Conconi money to come to an EPO test ] did.

Armstrong is the new Ricardo Ricco.

Much,much worse than Ricardo Ricco. Ricco damaged the sport, which is one thing. Cheating people who believed they were donating to the charitable foundation is another.

Do you forget about the club rides he went on with people who paid $35,000 US under the belief the money was going to the foundation? Armstrong kept $10,000 out of each of the $35,000 dollar donations. There were 50 riders a ride and he did two rides for the weekend to pocket $1,000,000 US for 6 hours of work.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-860283

If you do any digging, you'll find elsewhere he made paid showings and then told the host to make the check out to him instead of the foundation. One can find that was reported was for an event in Norway.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthony...ating-lance-armstrongs-livestrong-foundation/


This is all money that had it been given to another foundation would have helped with research and treatment for its supporting ailment.

Also, the Livestrong Foundation is about "cancer awareness" ,which means that treatment or research are not goals. Can you tell me what "cancer awareness" even means?


Livestrong’s CEO, Doug Ulman explained the motivation for pulling research funding. “Most organizations are about the disease. They’re about trying to solve a disease, and we are about trying to im*prove the lives of people that are battling the disease.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/01/news/must-read-livestrong-facts-and-fiction_203023



"As alluded to in the summary quoted above, Gifford does find, however, that LiveStrong doesn't provide funding for cancer research. He notes that the erroneous belief that LiveStrong does support research is perpetuated by Lance and others. He provides many examples to support his claim that "Armstrong and his supporters help perpetuate the notion that they are, in fact, helping battle cancer in the lab." While it once did provide some, limited, research funding, it has now evolved into what Giffords calls a "hip marketing agency" when he says"

http://fraudbytes.blogspot.com/2012/01/lance-armstrong-investigation.html

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

No. No mass murderer. Rather, the words Grifter and Charlatan come to mind.

He did show up locally to pocket $100,000 from the local Cancer Society alone. For that and other endorsements, he completed about three blocks of a much advertised 'Ride with Lance.

Perhaps he was distracted by someone on the roadside that resembled his mother.

Dave.

Isn't that just society D-Queued? Is Lance Armstrong as bad a@@ as the wall street bankers? He is part of the system. Who is rotten, or, what is rotten?

Armstrong is an exploit of society.

 

[Zweistein]

Isn't that just society D-Queued? Is Lance Armstrong as bad a@@ as the wall street bankers? He is part of the system. Who is rotten, or, what is rotten?

Armstrong is an exploit of society.

You are the Anti-Greg Lemond. The real Greg Lemond has integrity.

 

[Oldman]

Isn't that just society D-Queued? Is Lance Armstrong as bad a@@ as the wall street bankers? He is part of the system. Who is rotten, or, what is rotten?

Armstrong is an exploit of society.

Thom Weisel is a wall street banker/broker! You'd have to be an absolute fool not to have done even the basic research to know that they set out to make a reputation and cash in on it out of whole cloth. No opportunity to cheat, grift or decieve was missed in the development of the Lance myth. Then; no opportunity to exploit it was overlooked then any necessary means legal and illegal were applied to defend it. Bernie Madoff confessed and will do time until he dies for his theft.
Society didn't invent Bernie Madoff or Lance. Both frauds were coldly conceived and profitted from. Your "naivete" smacks of a justification rather than true ignorance so, sorry; your argument as a diversion doesn't work.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You are the Anti-Greg Lemond. The real Greg Lemond has integrity.

This might be the stupidest remark I have ever read. I will close my statement with this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhq-yO1KN8

That is my philosophy dear zweistein. Live and let live, forgive.

Sorry to take the Lance thread into a different level, me hippie.

Do you think Greg is able to forgive? Just guessing how he speaks of Landis nowadays I guess he is, are you?

Thom Weisel is a wall street banker/broker! You'd have to be an absolute fool not to have done even the basic research to know that they set out to make a reputation and cash in on it out of whole cloth. No opportunity to cheat, grift or decieve was missed in the development of the Lance myth. Then]Your anger is clouding your judgement. You don t even see how society itself wanted heroes like Armstrong.

Sorry for the interuption in this thread, I have said all I wanted to say on the dopester Lanceboy. Yes he doped, and was/is not a nice man but 95% of the public loved him. How come? Simple mathematics.

Armstrong/Ricco/Pantani: scapegoats.

 

[aphronesis]

Thom Weisel is a wall street banker/broker! You'd have to be an absolute fool not to have done even the basic research to know that they set out to make a reputation and cash in on it out of whole cloth. No opportunity to cheat, grift or decieve was missed in the development of the Lance myth. Then; no opportunity to exploit it was overlooked then any necessary means legal and illegal were applied to defend it. Bernie Madoff confessed and will do time until he dies for his theft.
Society didn't invent Bernie Madoff or Lance. Both frauds were coldly conceived and profitted from. Your "naivete" smacks of a justification rather than true ignorance so, sorry; your argument as a diversion doesn't work.

Right. They're just phenomenal freaks of nature, rather than people who exploit a given society; its loopholes; and illegalities.

Nothing but society invented those people; the fact that they game the system is a separate discussion. Own up.

 

[BroDeal]

I sure as hell am no Lance fan but the shat he has been getting the last year even has me going like 'hell, he too is just a human being, let him alone'.

Yes, the man has made mistakes, but, who has not? This Lance - crushing is getting a little too big in my book. The guy is no mass murderer. He doped to get to his high - winning - just like other cyclists in the past and present. And yes, it looks like he was part of a spinn where others thought they were forced to dope too, but hey, those guys had a choice, just like the riders who did not want to dope.

Or are Landis/Hamilton/Heras/Hincapie all the victim of this mass murderer? Armstrong did not kill cycling, the UCI and IOC [lets give Conconi money to come to an EPO test ] did.

Armstrong is the new Ricardo Ricco.

The mask drops. ____'s tactics are evolving.

 

[D-Queued]

Isn't that just society D-Queued? Is Lance Armstrong as bad a@@ as the wall street bankers? He is part of the system. Who is rotten, or, what is rotten?

Armstrong is an exploit of society.

You are the Anti-Greg Lemond. The real Greg Lemond has integrity.

Did I miss something?

This might be the stupidest remark I have ever read. ...

Nope. Except, maybe, for starting New Year's celebrations too early apparently.

Isn't that just society D-Queued? Is Lance Armstrong as bad a@@ as the wall street bankers? He is part of the system. Who is rotten, or, what is rotten?

Armstrong is an exploit of society.

No, not just society. Not even just Wall Street.

If you accuse 'Wall Street' of corruption and of corrupting, then you must do the same with cycling. In that case, Lance is just the latest (pre-repentent) Michael Milken.

Was Lance seduced by the proximity to very large amounts of money, as some on Wall Street appear to be? Or, was he a schemer?

I think the latter.

It may be splitting hairs, but a 'typical' Insider Trading scenario might go like this: 'Ooh, that is valuable. Maybe I could trade on that information.'

For Lance, however, it went like this: Oooh, I can rip those people off! Suckers!

Actually, you need to replace the "S" with an "F" for more of a literal Lance take on his targeted victims.

In other words, extending the analogy, Lance might be more like someone who went out of their way to trade women on the black market to run a bordello, while claiming it was a rescue mission for which he also solicited donations from their families, as opposed to a simple case of an extra-marital affair by someone who was surrounded by beautiful women.

Dave.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

The mask drops. ____'s tactics are evolving.

Mask? Come on Bro D. That is just stupid.

Maybe it is the NewYears evening beer talking but I've got enough of being angry at Armstrong. And yes, he wasnt the problem, the UCI were. He was the 'enabled one'.

But seeing only Armstrong, Pantani and Ricco bleed for the UCI makes me perhaps more angry then Sky/Garmin claiming they are clean because the 'numbers have gone down'. Just forgetting they are ou****ting Hinault, Fignon and LeMond.

Call me an old hippie, gues one could be right, listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e80qhyovOnA

In other words, extending the analogy, Lance might be more like someone who went out of their way to trade women on the black market to run a bordello, while claiming it was a rescue mission for which he also solicited donations from their families, as opposed to a simple case of an extra-marital affair by someone who was surrounded by beautiful women.

Dave.

It sure wasnt pretty, for sure. Question remains, who enabled, shut their eyes and played along with the myth? The answer is quite simple: Verdruggen cum suis. They are the problem.