Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[86TDFWinner]

IMHO, his previous interviews were calculated to restore his image and those did not work. And now he's back to attack mode to regain his sense of being "a champion" and rework his enemies list.

And to that I say, "Fight Wonderboy! Fight!"

I stumbled upon this link that apparently Wonderboy posted. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02...logs&_php=true&_type=blogs&ref=business&_r=1&

Summary: "Apology theater"

That's hilarious DW.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Actually most of this does appear in his affidavit.

Those cookie cutter affidavits were drawn up for the specific purpose of making a case against Armstrong. There must be a large amount of information that USADA is sitting on. They were light on detail about pre Bruyneel doping and post Bruyneel doping, and have been roundly criticized because of it. They cannot be treated as definitive statements on what was said to USADA during extensive interviews.

All very likely true. So, I change my opinion.

The only thing left bothering me is the title of the article: "Hincapie claims there's more to Andreu's doping past" It's not "Hincapie reminisces about controversial days" or something gentler. It generates controversy where apparently there is none. Thus, giving credibility to the idea that the intent is discrediting the Andreau's.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Still waiting for the links?

Here:
http://volumepr.com/AboutUs/MediaAwards/HowtoCraftEmail/tabid/208/Default.aspx

http://blog.lewispr.com/2013/11/pitching-tips-for-the-pr-newbie.html

This is how most "news" is manufactured.

 

[thehog]

Still waiting for the links?

I'm sure JV will clarify everything!

Lindsey: If they'd admit that?

Armstrong: If they'd admit it. I now talk to these guys, especially George. I know exactly what happened. And George doesn't like the deal either. The story, when it leaks in the Tour [in 2012], the names [of Armstrong's ex-teammates who testified against him] leaked. They all gather in the neutral zone [the race's rolling start] like, Holy s---, how did our names get out? And you know how they got out. And they all look at each other and George, and they say, "Well, this can't be true, because we're not getting suspended." George says, "What are you talking about?" Levi says, "What are you talking about?" And: "No, no we're not getting suspended." That's [Garmin riders Tom] Danielson, Vande Velde and [Dave] Zabriskie: "We're not getting suspended." George says, "Yeah, you're getting six months." They say, "No we're not." And George says, "Well, I'm getting six months," and Levi says, "I'm getting six months." So they're all ****ed. Then Colorado [USA Pro Challenge] comes around and there's enough pressure out there that Travis comes to Jonathan [Vaughters, Garmin team manager] and says, "I'm going to have to suspend them. I have to give them something." And here we are.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Do you honestly think it doesn't refer to EPO???



"that" refers to EPO. You really have to be extremely daft to think otherwise.

Wait, he was a doper, but seeing EPO had a "big impact?" Yea, little Gorge was just an innocent regular doper, but seeing the stuff that will actually help you win European races was a shock. It changed his whole thinking...HUGE IMPACT...

Evidently, we disagree with "too" and "that."

And let me add this: I never really had a problem with you, but you can go...well, that crap you wrote to mew yesterday...yea, I'll refrain from writing what I want because I already have one warning today...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

This is the entire section of the article:

“He told the Free Press last week that seeing Andreu with the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin, or EPO, in his refrigerator for the first time had a big impact on him.

Andreu’s wife, Betsy Andreu, says Hincapie’s allegations are “a futile attempt to not only besmirch their character but also to discredit them.”

Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says, referring to the the group of cyclists he rode with. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

Frankie Andreu told the Free Press he only experimented with EPO, in 1995-96; it wasn’t until 1999 that he used it with any regularity in competition.

But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that.

“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland. Hincapie gave a sworn affidavit about that experience to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in 2012.

In an interview in a new documentary, “The Armstrong Lie,” which is out on DVD Feb. 11, Hincapie talks about how Andreu taught him how to use EPO in an era when performance-enhancing drugs infiltrated the sport. He told the Free Press that Andreu even told him which pharmacy carried the drug.

It is clearly about EPO use, not general doping. We know from Swart that rMotorola was supplying its riders with stuff like corticosteroids. The obvious conclusion from the context of the article and what we know about Motorola is that the "too" should be interpreted as "in addition to...".

EDIT: Jeebus. Netserk posted the exact same thing.

You guys wanna parse language? Okay, why did the writer use the phrase "saw the performance enhancing drug...EPO" instead of "saw...EPO." What, the other drugs Hincapie was using were non-performance enhancing drugs?

You guys really wanna parse words?

You wanna parse meaning? Why did George not say "I was going to have to do that drug too?" That was written for the Detroit Free Press for people who don't know a bottom bracket from a spoke. I'm sure they all took it as meaning that George was doing all kinds of drugs before, it was just EPO that he was shocked by...

This has lots to with with the fact that a certain poster is involved, and a little of everything else.

Everybody's got an agenda, including me.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You guys wanna parse language? Okay, why did the writer use the phrase "saw the performance enhancing drug...EPO" instead of "saw...EPO." What, the other drugs Hincapie was using were non-performance enhancing drugs?

It's not a direct quote. It's probably been padded by the journo to help Joe and Jane Citizen understand the context (enhancing performance) of the drug (EPO), and to further clarify its intended use. Noone outside the clinic or medical fields or dopers knows wtf erythropoietin is.

As to the shock value for George, faced with taking EPO from now on, here's my take:

It wasn't that long before (ie when these EPO discussions were taking place) that riders had died from EPO. He was probably already on testosterone (swallow a pill) and cortisone (injections but also cream?) however the big difference is, to the best of my knowledge, no riders were dying from those things.

It was also (going to be) in France, during the Tour, where TUEs for cort were probably easy, but EPO not so much, so there's potentially also an element of law breaking.

Again, let me reiterate, because I am sure someone will jump on this and make me out to be a Frankie and Betsy hating George loving Lance fanboy - I have no doubt who lead the EPO charge, and am not a fan of any pro cyclist. None of them.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

It's not a direct quote. It's probably been padded by the journo to help Joe and Jane Citizen understand the context (enhancing performance) of the drug (EPO), and to further clarify its intended use.

I don't disagree with that at all, though for different reasons than do you.

As to the shock value, here's my take:

It wasn't that long before (ie when these EPO discussions were taking place) that riders had died from EPO. He was probably already on testosterone (swallow a pill) and cortisone (injections but also cream?) however the big difference is, to the best of my knowledge, no riders were dying from those things.

It was also in France, where TUEs for cort were probably easy, but EPO not so much, so there's potentially also an element of law breaking.

Again, let me reiterate, because I am sure someone will jump on this and make me out to be a Frankie and Betsy hating George loving Lance fanboy - I have no doubt who lead the EPO charge, and am not a fan of any pro cyclist. None of them.

Simpson died from fu*king speed, and Belgian pot was rampant, but yea, EPO is worse than a cocktail of heroin and other sh!t...soooo shocking...

Hincapie was a little doe shooting things into his arms with needles (some of which he probably didn't even ask what it was...he just took the 'it's B12' for face value...") Evidently, none of you guys has ever know a needle junkie...the step it takes to go from swallowing things to taking a needle and injecting directly into a vein or other body part is not a step ever taken innocently, and once you pass that point, the snow falls off Ms. White, and she becomes something completely different...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Simpson died from fu*king speed, and Belgian pot was rampant, but yea, EPO is worse than a cocktail of heroin and other sh!t...soooo shocking...

If George was taking that, it would be relevant. Simpson is one rider, who was also an addict, riding a hot stage up a big mountain in a big race.

EPO riders (many more than one) died in their fricken sleep.

Big difference to my mind.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Wait, he was a doper, but seeing EPO had a "big impact?" Yea, little Gorge was just an innocent regular doper, but seeing the stuff that will actually help you win European races was a shock. It changed his whole thinking...HUGE IMPACT...

Evidently, we disagree with "too" and "that."

And let me add this: I never really had a problem with you, but you can go...well, that crap you wrote to mew yesterday...yea, I'll refrain from writing what I want because I already have one warning today...

Its ok - unless you consider telling someone of Foff as 'hateful' - which I don't think - do you know any lawyers, besides Mark here?

• Using racist, sexist, homophobic or hateful language.

Remember these are the new rules - that replaced the old rules that did have an explicit mention about getting over the word filter. I assume it is a deliberate and reasoned approach and I fúcking welcome it.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

If George was taking that, it would be relevant. Simpson is one rider, who was also an addict, riding a hot stage up a big mountain in a big race.

EPO riders (many more than one) died in their fricken sleep.

Big difference to my mind.

George was almost certainly shooting things in his veins, and Ferrari has already told them it was safer than OJ.

I am not foreclosing the possibility that the words could have meant what you and other suggest. My problem with believing that (as I have written several times) is the confluence of the statement with statements made by Armstrong. I think there's a possibility they were worded carefully for a general audience...and I'm sorry, but there are 15 years worth of precedent to suggest that Armstrong has done that kind of thing regularly using others as proxies.

Sorry, but the vitriol and opposition here is based on another agenda entirely. Whether anyone wants to cop to it is their deal, but I will freely admit that I still don't find anything Frankie or Betsy have done distasteful when compared to the sh!t they took from Wonderboy, and I like RR...like I said, we all got an agenda.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Its ok - unless you consider telling someone of Foff as 'hateful' - which I don't think - do you know any lawyers, besides Mark here?



Remember these are the new rules - that replaced the old rules that did have an explicit mention about getting over the word filter. I assume it is a deliberate and reasoned approach and I fúcking welcome it.

I got a warning for suggesting that someone, who challenged me on a legal point I am more than competent to answer, was less than knowledgeable...and then I referenced a stupid, juvenile tit for tat we had...maybe I'm on a shorter leash...I can't say I don't deserve a shorter leash however...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

George was almost certainly shooting things in his veins, and Ferrari has already told them it was safer than OJ.

I thought someone might bring up the Ferrari claim, so had a response already prepared: any number of people will tell you bungy jumping, hang gliding and parachuting are safe. But that doesn't mean it's not going to scare the crap out of you when you do it / realise you have to start doing it.

 

[Scott SoCal]

I don't disagree with that at all, though for different reasons than do you.



Simpson died from fu*king speed, and Belgian pot was rampant, but yea, EPO is worse than a cocktail of heroin and other sh!t...soooo shocking...

Hincapie was a little doe shooting things into his arms with needles (some of which he probably didn't even ask what it was...he just took the 'it's B12' for face value...") Evidently, none of you guys has ever know a needle junkie...the step it takes to go from swallowing things to taking a needle and injecting directly into a vein or other body part is not a step ever taken innocently, and once you pass that point, the snow falls off Ms. White, and she becomes something completely different...

Did anybody ever read "A dog in a hat" by Joe Parkin? Mid 1980's Kermesse scene in Belgium... "There is a line crossed when a rider is no longer injecting amphetamines so that he can race but racing so he can inject amphetamines..."

Didn't McIlvain joke to LeMond about GH doing so much dope that she worried for his future children?

But, seeing a little Edgar in Frankie's fridge was the tipping point.

I'm just not buying what GH is selling.

 

[BroDeal]

Did anybody ever read "A dog in a hat" by Joe Parkin? Mid 1980's Kermesse scene in Belgium... "There is a line crossed when a rider is no longer injecting amphetamines so that he can race but racing so he can inject amphetamines..."

Didn't McIlvain joke to LeMond about GH doing so much dope that she worried for his future children?

But, seeing a little Edgar in Frankie's fridge was the tipping point.

I'm just not buying what GH is selling.

Then why did Fignon not use EPO? He had used everything else. With EPO he might have won another GT. If there is no signficant step going from corticosteroids and testosterone to EPO then why would Fignon balk at stepping up from steroids and a lot of other junk?

The way I see it there is a big step up to injecting stuff that requires constant monitoring of your blood so you don't die.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

George was almost certainly shooting things in his veins, and Ferrari has already told them it was safer than OJ.

I am not foreclosing the possibility that the words could have meant what you and other suggest. My problem with believing that (as I have written several times) is the confluence of the statement with statements made by Armstrong. I think there's a possibility they were worded carefully for a general audience...and I'm sorry, but there are 15 years worth of precedent to suggest that Armstrong has done that kind of thing regularly using others as proxies.

Sorry, but the vitriol and opposition here is based on another agenda entirely. Whether anyone wants to cop to it is their deal, but I will freely admit that I still don't find anything Frankie or Betsy have done distasteful when compared to the sh!t they took from Wonderboy, and I like RR...like I said, we all got an agenda.

The last few posts here have been excellent and informative - for what its worth, I see both sides and actually was more in taking them at face value until your last couple of posts.

Looking at it from GHs POV - he see's Frankie as just as complicit, yet GH believes FA is getting off light. GH looks at is they are all dopers and all the same - even if what they were willing to abuse is different.

But what is interesting, is that if it was a candid response from Hincapie why is it he does not mention anything about transfusions? That is a far scarier scenario - even Tyler refused in his book to refer to them as blood bags - because one would be hooked up for an extended period watching your (well, hopefully its yours) blood empty in to your arm.
The fact it is in a Deitroit publication and that they can get quotes from both LA & GH, IMO confirms its true intent

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I thought someone might bring up the Ferrari claim, so had a response already prepared: any number of people will tell you bungy jumping, hang gliding and parachuting are safe. But that doesn't mean it's not going to scare the crap out of you when you do it / realise you have to start doing it.

I had a response for someone who brought up such a claim: Once you stick a needle in your arm with sh!t Carmichael isn't even disclosing to you what it is, your fear of other needles with sh!t in it is diminished...

Again, for whatever reason, breaking the skin with a needle changes people...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Then why did Fignon not use EPO? He had used everything else. With EPO he might have won another GT. If there is no signficant step going from corticosteroids and testosterone to EPO then why would Fignon balk at stepping up from steroids and a lot of other junk?

The way I see it there is a big step up to injecting stuff that requires constant monitoring of your blood so you don't die.

Fignon was at the end of his career...

As to your last point, as I've stated, this is all parsing of words. For some reason, you believe in the purity of Hincapie's motives here...I don't. We disagree.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The last few posts here have been excellent and informative - for what its worth, I see both sides and actually was more in taking them at face value until your last couple of posts.

Looking at it from GHs POV - he see's Frankie as just as complicit, yet GH believes FA is getting off light. GH looks at is they are all dopers and all the same - even if what they were willing to abuse is different.

But what is interesting, is that if it was a candid response from Hincapie why is it he does not mention anything about transfusions? That is a far scarier scenario - even Tyler refused in his book to refer to them as blood bags - because one would be hooked up for an extended period watching your (well, hopefully its yours) blood empty in to your arm.
The fact it is in a Deitroit publication and that they can get quotes from both LA & GH, IMO confirms its true intent

This and the timing of Armstrong's statements are what push me to not buying the Curious George theory of events...they didn't just have it published in a periodical, it was right in Betsy and Frankies front yard, delivered 7 days every week for the very low price of 33 cents per issue, which is 17 cents off the retail price...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

The last few posts here have been excellent and informative - for what its worth, I see both sides and actually was more in taking them at face value until your last couple of posts.

Looking at it from GHs POV - he see's Frankie as just as complicit, yet GH believes FA is getting off light. GH looks at is they are all dopers and all the same - even if what they were willing to abuse is different.

But what is interesting, is that if it was a candid response from Hincapie why is it he does not mention anything about transfusions? That is a far scarier scenario - even Tyler refused in his book to refer to them as blood bags - because one would be hooked up for an extended period watching your (well, hopefully its yours) blood empty in to your arm.
The fact it is in a Deitroit publication and that they can get quotes from both LA & GH, IMO confirms its true intent

This and the timing of Armstrong's statements are what push me to not buying the Curious George theory of events...It wasn't just some newspaper...it was the one delivered to the Andreau's house for 33 cents per issue, which is 17 cents off the retail price...

 

[BroDeal]

Fignon was at the end of his career...

As to your last point, as I've stated, this is all parsing of words. For some reason, you believe in the purity of Hincapie's motives here...I don't. We disagree.

During Tour month 1991, as all the GT contenders began to jump on EPO like hobos hopping on a westward bound train, he was thirty years old.

I have not given any thought to Hincapie's motive because I don't care and I don't think it is relevant. As long as what he says is consistent with other evidence, and it is, then I am happy that details are being exposed.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

During Tour month 1991, as all the GT contenders began to jump on EPO like hobos hopping on a westward bound train, he was thirty years old.

I have not given any thought to Hincapie's motive because I don't care and I don't think it is relevant. As long as what he says is consistent with other evidence, and it is, then I am happy that details are being exposed.

I do care, and I do think it's relevant. Again, we disagree...but I'd suggest that you sure are taking a vested interest in a topic you claim to care little of, because the discussion for the past several pages (depending on your defaults in the User CP) has been about the intent of the statements...

And Hinault retired when he was 32...

 

[thehog]

This and the timing of Armstrong's statements are what push me to not buying the Curious George theory of events...they didn't just have it published in a periodical, it was right in Betsy and Frankies front yard, delivered 7 days every week for the very low price of 33 cents per issue, which is 17 cents off the retail price...

GH made the same statements in the Armstrong Lie movie which both BA and FA appeared in.

Because no one saw the film no one noticed.

This is not a new statement.

 

[sittingbison]

Do people still live in Detroit? I thought it was an abandoned ghost town overgrown with jungle

Everything Lance does or says is done with malicious, self serving purpose. It's his inherant sociopathic nature. As chewie say 's everyone has an agenda, it's clear what lances I 's and it looks like George is duped once again into toeing lances line, perhaps influenced by his own agenda.... Book coming out? New clobber range? Who knows, and who care 's...the guy is a lying POS.

 

[Beech Mtn]

GH made the same statements in the Armstrong Lie movie which both BA and FA appeared in.

Because no one saw the film no one noticed.

This is not a new statement.

Is it even clear from the article whether Hincapie talked to the reporter anew, or did someone just lift his statements from the documentary and use them in a newspaper close to the Andreus' home (a paper that presumably has reported on the Andreus in the past, had interviews/commentary from them)?

Is this a newspaper trying to stir up a story about local folks, or is this something else??