Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[gooner]

I wonder will Juliet Macur's book next month have anymore new info on this topic.

I seen a couple of days back Emma O'Reilly has one scheduled for the summer.

 

[D-Queued]

Then I, and the NY times, stand corrected.

Hopefully we can finally put that to rest...

However, perhaps this can serve as a placeholder for the next time you try and pin Lance's doping on Betsy.

The best predictor of future behavior is past behavior.

There is no evidence that Betsy has not been consistent about doping. Not with Frankie. Not with anyone.

There is plenty of evidence that Lance pursues scams.

This is the Lance thread.

Perhaps we can stick with the topic.

Surely the massive scams pursued by Lance are more interesting than trying to measure to a five decimal point accuracy how upset Betsy might have been about Frankie using EPO.

Dave.

 

[andy1234]

Hopefully we can finally put that to rest...

However, perhaps this can serve as a placeholder for the next time you try and pin Lance's doping on Betsy.

Yeah, because that's what was happening.
Careful you don't take your eye out, with that knee jerk.

 

[D-Queued]

Yeah, because that's what was happening.
Careful you don't take your eye out, with that knee jerk.

You were distorting Betsy's actions. In a Lance thread. With a consistent sub-theme of trying to discredit everyone but Lance.

That was what was happening.

And, it has been going on for a very long time.

Given the long history, please excuse me if your self-correction can be interpreted as transparently insincere.

However, if you were sticking to the subject, your sincerity wouldn't be in doubt.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

I'm not buying the 'Lance as an Evil Mastermind' theory. He's been boneheaded and stubborn ever since Floyd snitched. He's also tone-deaf to public opinion, and I think he ignored his expensive advisors.

I don't think Lance is teetering on the edge of insanity, either. Go back to 2010 and 2011 and you'll see the same 'Lance is Losing It' theme repeated by the same people, over and over on this forum.

I don't think George is lying to smear Frankie because he is following Lance's master public relations smear plan. Such a smear plan doesn't make any sense to George, because he has too much to lose and zero to gain by it. It doesn't make any sense for Lance to be enlisting George in a further SOL tolling coverup act on the eve of a trial--a trial that puts Lance`s bottom dollar in jeopardy.

It doesn't make sense for George to lie about Frankie, because in the near future he's going to have to either adopt that lie under oath, or admit he was lying to smear Frankie. That would be an idiotic thing for George to do.

Maybe George is just (right or wrong, true or false) saying what he believes to be true?

 

[BroDeal]

However, if you were sticking to the subject, your sincerity wouldn't be in doubt.

I thought the subject was Armstrong, not George Hincapie talked to the press and said little.

When riders claim to have used EPO for just a race or two then everyone laughs at their chutzpah for telling such ludicrous stories unless it is Andreu, in which case the suggestion that he did more than dope for a few races during the six years before stopped, an opinion that has been expressed by many in this forum, is treated as a cunning plan by Armstrong to smear the Andreus.

Maybe all those here who have expressed doubts about the completeness of riders' doing histories given in their affidavits, when they started and when they stopped, are sleeper agents for Public Strategies. Holy crap! I might be a Public Strategies' Manchurian candidate and not even know it.

 

[86TDFWinner]

He's been served, to this point, extremely well by keeping his mouth shut. Either he's dumber than I think or something else is up.

It appears he's still obviously on Wonderboys side in all of this. I think he sees Tyler's success of sorts, and lack of backlash, and thinks he should get the same treatment. It's obvious George is just bitter.

Just my opinion.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I'm not buying the 'Lance as an Evil Mastermind' theory. He's been boneheaded and stubborn ever since Floyd snitched. He's also tone-deaf to public opinion, and I think he ignored his expensive advisors.

I don't think Lance is teetering on the edge of insanity, either. Go back to 2010 and 2011 and you'll see the same 'Lance is Losing It' theme repeated by the same people, over and over on this forum.

I don't think George is lying to smear Frankie because he is following Lance's master public relations smear plan. Such a smear plan doesn't make any sense to Frankie, because he has too much to lose and zero to gain by it. It doesn't make any sense for Lance to be enlisting Frankie in a further SOL tolling coverup act on the eve of a trial--a trial that puts Lance`s bottom dollar in jeopardy.

It doesn't make sense for George to lie about Frankie, because in the near future he's going to have to either adopt that lie under oath, or admit he was lying to smear Frankie. That would be an idiotic thing for George to do.

Maybe George is just (right or wrong, true or false) saying what he believes to be true?

Maybe the object of the concerted effort wasn't ACTUALLY Frankie at all?

 

[BroDeal]

Maybe George is just (right or wrong, true or false) saying what he believes to be true?

Nah, could not be. Despite maintaining what he said in his affidavit, which was gold when it was used to convict Armstrong, it is all lies now.

Adding to what MarkW posted, unlike Armstrong, Hincapie seems to have been good about following advice from lawyers and whoever else is giving him counsel. His statements to the press, like his "non-denial, working for a better future" statement that was released as things hotted up, have all been measured and reasonable. He was smart enough or took advice well enough to lay low for a year and a half. If he and his advisers feel it is now time, in the face of the Armstrong movie, Juliet Macur's upcoming book, and Betsy and Tygart's world media tour, to shade the story with a more complete picture of what it was like to make a decision to use EPO then so what? The truth about that works in Armstrong's favor. Are we going to condemn people for telling the truth because it puts Armstrong in a better light?

 

[andy1234]

You were distorting Betsy's actions. In a Lance thread. With a consistent sub-theme of trying to discredit everyone but Lance.

That was what was happening.

And, it has been going on for a very long time.

Given the long history, please excuse me if your self-correction can be interpreted as transparently insincere.

However, if you were sticking to the subject, your sincerity wouldn't be in doubt.

Dave.

No, that isn't what was happening.

I don't give a F**k about Lance, but I also don't give a f**k about the other dopers in this farce.
When they are painted as whiter than white, I'm going to comment.
If that screws with your concept of good and evil, then tough.

RR brought Andreu into this thread, not me. I simply challenged his stance that anything negative regarding Andreu, must be a lie.

With regards to Betsy, I was quoting a NY times article FFS.
If the NY times distorted the facts, then take it up with them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not buying the 'Lance as an Evil Mastermind' theory. He's been boneheaded and stubborn ever since Floyd snitched. He's also tone-deaf to public opinion, and I think he ignored his expensive advisors.

I don't think Lance is teetering on the edge of insanity, either. Go back to 2010 and 2011 and you'll see the same 'Lance is Losing It' theme repeated by the same people, over and over on this forum.

But he did 'lose it'.
And it was because as you point out he was boneheaded, stubborn, tone deaf and ignored some of the advise he got.

Nor is LA an evil mastermind - he is again grasping for anything to retain some of his fortune and he has gone back to his default mode which is charm some and slam the rest.

I don't think George is lying to smear Frankie because he is following Lance's master public relations smear plan. Such a smear plan doesn't make any sense to Frankie, because he has too much to lose and zero to gain by it. It doesn't make any sense for Lance to be enlisting Frankie in a further SOL tolling coverup act on the eve of a trial--a trial that puts Lance`s bottom dollar in jeopardy.

It doesn't make sense for George to lie about Frankie, because in the near future he's going to have to either adopt that lie under oath, or admit he was lying to smear Frankie. That would be an idiotic thing for George to do.

Maybe George is just (right or wrong, true or false) saying what he believes to be true?

I don't believe George is lying - the statements all seem consistent with the different affidavits (FA, GH, Swart), but it is a lot of spin if anyone is trying to suggest Frankie was the ringleader.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Nor is LA an evil mastermind - he is again grasping for anything to retain some of his fortune and he has gone back to his default mode which is charm some and slam the rest.

good post

Which as we all know, didn't work out for him very well before.

I don't believe George is lying - the statements all seem consistent with the different affidavits (FA, GH, Swart), but it is a lot of spin if anyone is trying to suggest Frankie was the ringleader.

This.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

"I started doping because I saw EPO in Frankie's fridge"...I'm sorry you don't believe in unicorns.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Nah, could not be. Despite maintaining what he said in his affidavit, which was gold when it was used to convict Armstrong, it is all lies now.

Adding to what MarkW posted, unlike Armstrong, Hincapie seems to have been good about following advice from lawyers and whoever else is giving him counsel. His statements to the press, like his "non-denial, working for a better future" statement that was released as things hotted up, have all been measured and reasonable. He was smart enough or took advice well enough to lay low for a year and a half. If he and his advisers feel it is now time, in the face of the Armstrong movie, Juliet Macur's upcoming book, and Betsy and Tygart's world media tour, to shade the story with a more complete picture of what it was like to make a decision to use EPO then so what? The truth about that works in Armstrong's favor. Are we going to condemn people for telling the truth because it puts Armstrong in a better light?

Hincapie has to know he will be far better off to refrain from making public comments about doping. So why talk now?

 

[skidmark]

I thought the subject was Armstrong, not George Hincapie talked to the press and said little.

When riders claim to have used EPO for just a race or two then everyone laughs at their chutzpah for telling such ludicrous stories unless it is Andreu, in which case the suggestion that he did more than dope for a few races during the six years before stopped, an opinion that has been expressed by many in this forum, is treated as a cunning plan by Armstrong to smear the Andreus.

Maybe all those here who have expressed doubts about the completeness of riders' doing histories given in their affidavits, when they started and when they stopped, are sleeper agents for Public Strategies. Holy crap! I might be a Public Strategies' Manchurian candidate and not even know it.

What? I don't get how your post addresses the point, it just seems to make fun of people and end up deflecting from the point. Yes, of course it's likely that Frankie doped more than he told his wife, there was a clear undertone of 'I'm terrified that my wife is going to kill me' from every description I've ever read about Frankie's doping, from other riders' affadavits and his own, from interviews, etc. I don't really care, or see how that's in question.

I think the topic is Armstrong, not 'George Hincapie talked to the press and said little', but I certainly feel like 'George Hincapie talked to the press about doping for the first time I can remember since his sorta-confession', combined with his friendship with Armstrong, combined with Armstrong's long history of trying to extend his reach through other people and the media to control the narrative, combined with his redemption trail and how that narrative would be served by any story about how it 'wasn't just him', makes this worth a long look. Why do you think differently?

edit: I suppose the last question is rhetorical; I've read your posts in this thread obviously, and you have said 'he's not saying anything new', and that seems sufficient for you and you don't think it has anything to do with Armstrong, and that him talking to the media about this right now is not suspicious. So if that's just what you think, fine. I disagree, I do think it's suspicious.

 

[thehog]

"I started doping because I saw EPO in Frankie's fridge"...I'm sorry you don't believe in unicorns.

I think the point being made is Armstrong's BS lasted a long time. Let's not now apply BS from the other end and speak of back room deals with the press to smear Frankie etc.

We are now at a point whereby the players involved can speak reasonably freely whereas before they could not.

Let's allow from some dialogue on the matter before jumping to ulterior explanations.

 

[Scott SoCal]

But he did 'lose it'.
And it was because as you point out he was boneheaded, stubborn, tone deaf and ignored some of the advise he got.

Nor is LA an evil mastermind - he is again grasping for anything to retain some of his fortune and he has gone back to his default mode which is charm some and slam the rest.




I don't believe George is lying - the statements all seem consistent with the different affidavits (FA, GH, Swart), but it is a lot of spin if anyone is trying to suggest Frankie was the ringleader.

But he did 'lose it'.
And it was because as you point out he was boneheaded, stubborn, tone deaf and ignored some of the advise he got.

Nor is LA an evil mastermind - he is again grasping for anything to retain some of his fortune and he has gone back to his default mode which is charm some and slam the rest.

And that game isn't working as well as it used to... which will spin him out even further.

I don't believe George is lying - the statements all seem consistent with the different affidavits (FA, GH, Swart), but it is a lot of spin if anyone is trying to suggest Frankie was the ringleader

It's interesting that GH, at this point, even puts himself out there unless it's to get out in front of something.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think the point being made is Armstrong's BS lasted a long time. Let's not now apply BS from the other end and speak of back room deals with the press to smear Frankie etc.

We are now at a point whereby the players involved can speak reasonably freely whereas before they could not.

Let's allow from some dialogue on the matter before jumping to ulterior explanations.

Rule of life: Everybody's got an agenda, including me.

 

[thehog]

Rule of life: Everybody's got an agenda, including me.

100% agree.

 

[BradCantona]

What is the motive for Lance? To beat the Qui Tam case? What is the motivation for George then?

I'm not giving him stick. It's just he has this habit of rewriting the facts to suit an agenda. I read it from him all the time and I felt the need to comment this time.

Yes I think it's part of Armstrongs attempt to try to protect himself legally, using the only method he knows - attempting to discredit those who told the truth about him

Hincapie's motivation is more interesting, I think it's misguided loyalty to a man that made his career what it became. Why is he speaking out at all, he's done a bloody good job of saying nothing previously

We've just seen this play so many times before, it ceases being credibly coming up with alternative explanation

 

[eleven]

This is what many here do not get. For several months Lance has been trying to get the "Frankie the pusher" angle into the public domain. This is the best he could do.

Except you've provided zero evidence of this claim.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I think the point being made is Armstrong's BS lasted a long time. Let's not now apply BS from the other end and speak of back room deals with the press to smear Frankie etc.

We are now at a point whereby the players involved can speak reasonably freely whereas before they could not.

Let's allow from some dialogue on the matter before jumping to ulterior explanations.

Well, your agenda is clear. Anything RR now posts you attempt to rebut.

Unlike you, RR has earned a reputation here of posting things that by in large turn out to be true.

And it is hardly BS given LAs known methods and the fact that George suddenly finds his tongue for a publication in the Andreus backyard just when another court case is looming.

 

[BroDeal]

I don't believe George is lying - the statements all seem consistent with the different affidavits (FA, GH, Swart), but it is a lot of spin if anyone is trying to suggest Frankie was the ringleader.

The only spin about Andreu being a ringleader is coming from RR. Hincapie just said that seeing his friend and mentor was using EPO had a strong impact on him. It is ridiculous to leap from that to, "Hincapie accused Andreu of being a ringleader."

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The only spin about Andreu being a ringleader is coming from RR. Hincapie just said that seeing his friend and mentor was using EPO had a strong impact on him. It is ridiculous to leap from that to, "Hincapie accused Andreu of being a ringleader."

Great, I agree it is spin if people were trying to portray it that way - but it wasn't RR who brought it up. Not sure why you mentioned him.

 

[BroDeal]

I think the topic is Armstrong, not 'George Hincapie talked to the press and said little', but I certainly feel like 'George Hincapie talked to the press about doping for the first time I can remember since his sorta-confession', combined with his friendship with Armstrong, combined with Armstrong's long history of trying to extend his reach through other people and the media to control the narrative, combined with his redemption trail and how that narrative would be served by any story about how it 'wasn't just him', makes this worth a long look. Why do you think differently?

But it was not just Armstrong. People are getting upset about the truth being told, and RR is doing a spin job on some straightforward statements by Hincapie. If the truth makes Armstrong's dope use look more excusable--and it will because because everyone who was anyone in the sport was doping--then so be it.