Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[ChewbaccaD]

But it was not just Armstrong. People are getting upset about the truth being told, and RR is doing a spin job on some straightforward statements by Hincapie. If the truth makes Armstrong's dope use look more excusable--and it will because because everyone who was anyone in the sport was doping--then so be it.

Can you honestly not see the BS in Hincapie's "I didn't even think I'd have to dope until I saw EPO in Frankie's fridge?" Honestly, you thing that's a "spin job?" Sorry, but because of the relationship between George and Lance, you'd have to think that Hincapie was never really bothered at all by the doping. None. But yea, saw it in Frankie's fridge...this was the first time, I swear...

 

[BroDeal]

Great, I agree it is spin if people were trying to portray it that way - but it wasn't RR who brought it up. Not sure why you mentioned him.

Because RR has been the ringleader of those asserting that is what Hincapie said. He has repeatedly written that Hincapie is accusing Andreu of being a drug pusher. There is no basis for this in anything Hincapie said in that interview.

 

[BroDeal]

Can you honestly not see the BS in Hincapie's "I didn't even think I'd have to dope until I saw EPO in Frankie's fridge?" Honestly, you thing that's a "spin job?"

Link and quote please.

RR's and apparently your spin on what Hincapie said is based on a misinterpretation of the word "too" in one sentence. What Hincapie said is being interpreted as, "Gosh, Frankie is doping. I guess I will have to as well." The section of that article that includes the quote is clearly about Hincapie' decision to use EPO. The quote should be interpreted as "Wow, Frankie is using EPO. I guess I will have to use it (in addition to the low octane stuff I am already doing." No where in that article does Hincapie imply that he was not using anything prior to finding out that Andreu was using EPO.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Because RR has been the ringleader of those asserting that is what Hincapie said. He has repeatedly written that Hincapie is accusing Andreu of being a drug pusher. There is no basis for this in anything Hincapie said in that interview.

That was because 'others' were the ones to assert that FA was a ringleader or supplier - something you too appear to acknowledge as not true.

 

[BroDeal]

That was because 'others' were the ones to assert that FA was a ringleader or supplier - something you too appear to acknowledge as not true.

The Vortext starts up.

Are you going to deny that RR has been leading the charge to spin Hincapie's statements into something they are not, that he has repeatedly tried to smear Hincapie by claiming that he is portraying Andreu as a drug pusher, that he is claiming that Hincapie said it was Frankie that caused him to use drugs, et cetera?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Link and quote please.

RR's and apparently your spin on what Hincapie said is based on a misinterpretation of the word "too" in one sentence. What Hincapie said is being interpreted as, "Gosh, Frankie is doping. I guess I will have to as well." The section of that article that includes the quote is clearly about Hincapie' decision to use EPO. The quote should be interpreted as "Wow, Frankie is using EPO. I guess I will have to use it (in addition to the low octane stuff I am already doing." No where in that article does Hincapie imply that he was not using anything prior to finding out that Andreu was using EPO.

Sorry, can you link to the part of the quote where Hincapie says "in addition to the low octane stuff I am already doing?"...oh wait, you and I interpret the sentence differently with no direct evidence...so yea, that makes your more valid because RR is the only one spinning...oh wait, no I and RR are "misrepresenting" the definition of "too," but you have proof of the meaning, and clearly, an unknowing public would interpret that the way you did...

 

[Netserk]

Sorry, can you link to the part of the quote where Hincapie says "in addition to the low octane stuff I am already doing?"...oh wait, you and I interpret the sentence differently with no direct evidence...so yea, that makes your more valid because RR is the only one spinning...oh wait, no I and RR are "misrepresenting" the definition of "too," but you have proof of the meaning, and clearly, an unknowing public would interpret that the way you did...

Do you honestly think it doesn't refer to EPO???

He told the Free Press last week that seeing Andreu with the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin, or EPO, in his refrigerator for the first time had a big impact on him.

Andreu’s wife, Betsy Andreu, says Hincapie’s allegations are “a futile attempt to not only besmirch their character but also to discredit them.”

“Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says, referring to the the group of cyclists he rode with. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

Frankie Andreu told the Free Press he only experimented with EPO, in 1995-96; it wasn’t until 1999 that he used it with any regularity in competition.

But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that.

“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland. Hincapie gave a sworn affidavit about that experience to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in 2012.

"that" refers to EPO. You really have to be extremely daft to think otherwise.

 

[BroDeal]

Sorry, can you link to the part of the quote where Hincapie says "in addition to the low octane stuff I am already doing?"...oh wait, you and I interpret the sentence differently with no direct evidence...so yea, that makes your more valid because RR is the only one spinning...oh wait, no I and RR are "misrepresenting" the definition of "too," but you have proof of the meaning, and clearly, an unknowing public would interpret that the way you did...

This is the entire section of the article:

“He told the Free Press last week that seeing Andreu with the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin, or EPO, in his refrigerator for the first time had a big impact on him.

Andreu’s wife, Betsy Andreu, says Hincapie’s allegations are “a futile attempt to not only besmirch their character but also to discredit them.”

Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says, referring to the the group of cyclists he rode with. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

Frankie Andreu told the Free Press he only experimented with EPO, in 1995-96; it wasn’t until 1999 that he used it with any regularity in competition.

But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that.

“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland. Hincapie gave a sworn affidavit about that experience to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in 2012.

In an interview in a new documentary, “The Armstrong Lie,” which is out on DVD Feb. 11, Hincapie talks about how Andreu taught him how to use EPO in an era when performance-enhancing drugs infiltrated the sport. He told the Free Press that Andreu even told him which pharmacy carried the drug.

It is clearly about EPO use, not general doping. We know from Swart that rMotorola was supplying its riders with stuff like corticosteroids. The obvious conclusion from the context of the article and what we know about Motorola is that the "too" should be interpreted as "in addition to...".

EDIT: Jeebus. Netserk posted the exact same thing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The Vortext starts up.

Are you going to deny that RR has been leading the charge to spin Hincapie's statements into something they are not, that he has repeatedly tried to smear Hincapie by claiming that he is portraying Andreu as a drug pusher, that he is claiming that Hincapie said it was Frankie that caused him to use drugs, et cetera?

If you really don't want to start the vortex, then don't ask misleading (and irrelevant) question.

RR posted the original link, he also did not say FA was a pusher or ringleader, others did. So, when they did RR responded (and its something you agree with).

If you keep bringing RR in to this discussion - which IMO is irrelevant - then yes, I have no problem querying you on it to see why you are doing so.
Up to you.

 

[thehog]

Some people believe that other people ought not to be allowed to believe what they believe. You can always tell when someone believes that their belief is the only belief worth believing. Their behaviour becomes unbelievable! In some cultures it is a sign of weakness to be unsure of what you believe in. It is, though, an indication of great strength, wisdom and integrity. You no longer believe what you used to believe. Let that lack of belief be a relief!

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Some people believe that other people ought not to be allowed to believe what they believe. You can always tell when someone believes that their belief is the only belief worth believing. Their behaviour becomes unbelievable! In some cultures it is a sign of weakness to be unsure of what you believe in. It is, though, an indication of great strength, wisdom and integrity. You no longer believe what you used to believe. Let that lack of belief be a relief!

 

[BroDeal]

RR posted the original link, he also did not say FA was a pusher or ringleader, others did. So, when they did RR responded (and its something you agree with).

RR has most certainly pushed the angle that Andreu is being smeared as a drug pusher. Stop lying. His line of reasoning seems to be that behind the scenes Armstrong is saying that Andreu was a drug pusher and Hincapie is acting as Armstrong's proxy to advance that attack on Andrue, despite nothing that Hincapie said being remotely close to saying that Andreu was a pusher. The distortions of the what Hincapie said by RR are ridiculous. There are a bunch of lemmings here that take them as face value and have run with them.

If you keep bringing RR in to this discussion - which IMO is irrelevant - then yes, I have no problem querying you on it to see why you are doing so.
Up to you.

Why I bring something up is none of your damned business. Why are you a pedantic niggler?

 

[Scott SoCal]

This is the entire section of the article:

“He told the Free Press last week that seeing Andreu with the performance-enhancing drug erythropoietin, or EPO, in his refrigerator for the first time had a big impact on him.

Andreu’s wife, Betsy Andreu, says Hincapie’s allegations are “a futile attempt to not only besmirch their character but also to discredit them.”

Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says, referring to the the group of cyclists he rode with. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

Frankie Andreu told the Free Press he only experimented with EPO, in 1995-96; it wasn’t until 1999 that he used it with any regularity in competition.

But Hincapie alleges Andreu was more involved than that.

“It was definitely more than experimenting,” Hincapie says, adding that Andreu told him how to buy EPO in Switzerland. Hincapie gave a sworn affidavit about that experience to the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency in 2012.

In an interview in a new documentary, “The Armstrong Lie,” which is out on DVD Feb. 11, Hincapie talks about how Andreu taught him how to use EPO in an era when performance-enhancing drugs infiltrated the sport. He told the Free Press that Andreu even told him which pharmacy carried the drug.

It is clearly about EPO use, not general doping. We know from Swart that rMotorola was supplying its riders with stuff like corticosteroids. The obvious conclusion from the context of the article and what we know about Motorola is that the "too" should be interpreted as "in addition to...".

EDIT: Jeebus. Netserk posted the exact same thing.

1. Why talk at all?
2. Why crack Frankie, even if everything he is saying is absolutely true?
3. What is really going on here?

 

[DirtyWorks]

The only spin about Andreu being a ringleader is coming from RR. Hincapie just said that seeing his friend and mentor was using EPO had a strong impact on him. It is ridiculous to leap from that to, "Hincapie accused Andreu of being a ringleader."

How about a less specific claim? I would argue, at minimum, the intent of getting the story published is to at least discredit the Andreau's once again and shift the well-known story.

IMHO, the story is constructed to easily be summarized as "Frankie was some kind of lying, cheating, doping ring leader." I can see how some would read that as the wrong interpretation, but the story is not written for a careful, knowledgeable reader.

Scott's post above this one is the only interesting thing left to discuss. IMHO, some kind of repositioning strategy for Wonderboy is in play. Fight Wondeboy! Fight! You can be a champion again!

 

[BroDeal]

1. Why talk at all?
2. Why crack Frankie, even if everything he is saying is absolutely true?
3. What is really going on here?

Who cares why if it is the truth? That is a big step forward if what people have to worry about is why the truth is being told rather than why people are lying.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

RR has most certainly pushed the angle that Andreu is being smeared as a drug pusher. Stop lying. His line of reasoning seems to be that behind the scenes Armstrong is saying that Andreu was a drug pusher and Hincapie is acting as Armstrong's proxy to advance that attack on Andrue, despite nothing that Hincapie said being remotely close to saying that Andreu was a pusher. The distortions of the what Hincapie said by RR are ridiculous. There are a bunch of lemmings here that take them as face value and have run with them.



Why I bring something up is none of your damned business. Why are you a pedantic niggler?

Good question - and since you asked, I will answer it as it also goes to the point of this discussion.

I am here to discuss what GH said, and the why.
RR has his interpretation - which others (and I include you) are spinning. And since you wrote it on a public forum, then I have every right to ask in the exact same way as I am answering your question to me.

You wish to discuss Hincapie - then you wont hear any objections from me, you wish to constantly refer to RR, then I will happily query you.

 

[MarkvW]

Good question - and since you asked, I will answer it as it also goes to the point of this discussion.

I am here to discuss what GH said, and the why.
RR has his interpretation - which others (and I include you) are spinning. And since you wrote it on a public forum, then I have every right to ask in the exact same way as I am answering your question to me.

You wish to discuss Hincapie - then you wont hear any objections from me, you wish to constantly refer to RR, then I will happily query you.

Good to see you back Maz. What is your opinion? Is George saying anything new, or not?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Who cares why if it is the truth? That is a big step forward if what people have to worry about is why the truth is being told rather than why people are lying.

Except one of the problems is none of this appears in his affidavit.

A number of the affidavits had anecdotes/personal experiences like the one George is claiming occurred. You'd think if it was such a turning point as he now claims it would end up in the affidavit.

There's no doubt he's still a faithful Armstrong squire in 2014. He has a history of with no problems doping and lying. It seems to me recasting history a bit to help his "friend" Armstrong is an easy request to fill.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Who cares why if it is the truth? That is a big step forward if what people have to worry about is why the truth is being told rather than why people are lying.

"The truth will set you free" type of Tyler Hamilton epiphany? From GH?

I ain't buying.

Hincapie hasn't suffered at all in this entire miserable episode. He should be the last guy giving the narrative.

Unless something else is going on.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Good to see you back Maz. What is your opinion? Is George saying anything new, or not?

I already offered it when I said that there appears little new information and it is consistent with all the affidavits.

The only new part is the that George is going public now at an interesting time in a publication that is in the Andreus backyard.

 

[MarkvW]

Except one of the problems is none of this appears in his affidavit.

A number of the affidavits had anecdotes/personal experiences like the one George is claiming occurred. You'd think if it was such a turning point as he now claims it would end up in the affidavit.

There's no doubt he's still a faithful Armstrong squire in 2014. He has a history of with no problems doping and lying. It seems to me recasting history a bit to help his "friend" Armstrong is an easy request to fill.

How does this "help" Armstrong, though? It's just rehashing the USPS doping ugliness--which is definitely bad for Lance. Nobody (outside cycling fans) really cares whether Frankie was a "big" doper or a "little" doper.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Yes I think it's part of Armstrongs attempt to try to protect himself legally, using the only method he knows - attempting to discredit those who told the truth about him

Yep, I think even more stuff about Betsy/Frankie/Floyd and LeMond will still come out now, he just cannot help himself, it's all he knows.

Hincapie's motivation is more interesting, I think it's misguided loyalty to a man that made his career what it became. Why is he speaking out at all, he's done a bloody good job of saying nothing previously

Because he feels he's been wronged somehow?(I'm asking, as I don't know either). It seems who's ever been giving him this new batch of info/courage isn't very bright.

We've just seen this play so many times before, it ceases being credibly coming up with alternative explanation

Yet Wonderboy STILL tries to use it for some reason.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Lance has been pushing this nonsense for months, that Betsy knew, Frankie was a pusher, Travis and JV are in bed together. He tell journalist to talk to George and VDV as they will confirm his rants. Until now George has just done his normal mumbling and the few things he would say were unconfirmable. None of the cycling journalists would run with it as they saw through it. This reporter, with little understanding of the facts, ran with it.

Do you have links for this, or do all cycling journalists email you whenever Lance tries to tell them stuff, alerting you to his behind the scenes shenanigans?

Link please?

Except you've provided zero evidence of this claim.

Still waiting for the links?

 

[DirtyWorks]

How does this "help" Armstrong, though? It's just rehashing the USPS doping ugliness--which is definitely bad for Lance. Nobody (outside cycling fans) really cares whether Frankie was a "big" doper or a "little" doper.

IMHO, his previous interviews were calculated to restore his image and those did not work. And now he's back to attack mode to regain his sense of being "a champion" and rework his enemies list.

And to that I say, "Fight Wonderboy! Fight!"

I stumbled upon this link that apparently Wonderboy posted. http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/02...logs&_php=true&_type=blogs&ref=business&_r=1&

Summary: "Apology theater"

 

[BroDeal]

Except one of the problems is none of this appears in his affidavit.

A number of the affidavits had anecdotes/personal experiences like the one George is claiming occurred. You'd think if it was such a turning point as he now claims it would end up in the affidavit.

There's no doubt he's still a faithful Armstrong squire in 2014. He has a history of with no problems doping and lying. It seems to me recasting history a bit to help his "friend" Armstrong is an easy request to fill.

Actually most of this does appear in his affidavit.

Those cookie cutter affidavits were drawn up for the specific purpose of making a case against Armstrong. There must be a large amount of information that USADA is sitting on. They were light on detail about pre Bruyneel doping and post Bruyneel doping, and have been roundly criticized because of it. They cannot be treated as definitive statements on what was said to USADA during extensive interviews.

If you want extensive then look to Landis' interview with Kimmage. The affidavits contain nowhere near that amount of content and detail.