Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[aphronesis]

...if there was only the one mix-up you mention, it could be understandable, but the testimony I posted shows a long litany of, uhhh, mix-ups....kinda sorta painting a broad picture of broad-band wall to wall mix-ups that almost look like a well worn web of, uhhh, mix-ups....and yes that dastardly lawyer keeps bringing up that awful lie word but we should be polite shouldn't we and just keep calling them mix-ups ?...this being The Clinic after all, and we do have a squeaky clean rep to keep up...

...Betsy actually comes off pretty well as the obsessive out for blood...and given the circumstances I can see her point...at least she was honestish, which under oath is a pretty good minimal requirement ( and btw that bit of testimony also suggests that there may not have been a cabal at that point...otherwise one would think they would have at least been maybe somewhere on the same page...or at least reading from basically the same book..)

...as for the other folks...well, there it is in black and white, and it never lets up...mix-up, mix-up, mix-up, etc, etc, etc....

Cheers

Way to kill discussion B.

 

[DirtyWorks]

These are all misrepresentations of he article.

I thought "this forum blows" and you were out of here?

Repeating your weak, largely fictional claims don't make them any more legitimate. There's nothing you have recently posted worth the time or energy to address. Post your facts and let the reader decide.

BTW, we're still waiting for published validations of your wild claims.

 

[DirtyWorks]

A lot of good facts about the good old days. But, if we are talking about facts, let's stick to them.

Both Davis Phinney and Connie Carpenter are/were vocal about the program and that they refused to participate. Arguably, they were key to exposing the doping program.

There isn't much benefit to smear these two, and these facts (!) do not agree with you.

Otherwise, good post.

Dave.

This is my recollection. Please start another thread, with some corroboration, if there is a difference of opinion.

 

[blutto]

Way to kill discussion B.

....hmmm...kinda torn btw....

....oh my gawd is it something I said ?!?!

...or...

...killed this "discussion" ?...what I did was sweet mercy!...the way this train wreck has rolled along over the last long while it should have been put out of its misery and buried ages ago...

...or...

...nahh...this "discussion" ain't dead...everybody has just taken a dinner break...and once they are sated, ingested enough brewski's and re-loaded they'll be back for round 247....after all this is kinda like Valhalla for nerds, where the bickering and name-calling never stops....truth be known we make cat-fights look like civil principled debates and frankly we are pretty good at it...I mean, just look at what this place did to LA...

Cheers

 

[Alpe73]

Most people here agree with you.

 

[D-Queued]

This is my recollection. Please start another thread, with some corroboration, if there is a difference of opinion.

It's in Phinney's book...

No need for another thread. There shouldn't be any dispute.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It's in Phinney's book...

No need for another thread. There shouldn't be any dispute.

Dave.

Are you sure?? Maybe Lemond got Frankie and Tygart a job running drugs for Eddie B. That's what I heard will be published real soon.

 

[blackcat]

A lot of good facts about the good old days. But, if we are talking about facts, let's stick to them.

Both Davis Phinney and Connie Carpenter are/were vocal about the program and that they refused to participate. Arguably, they were key to exposing the doping program.

There isn't much benefit to smear these two, and these facts (!) do not agree with you.

Otherwise, good post.

Dave.



I don't always agree with Mark, but I agree here.

And, even though BPC has recently endorsed BroDeal (ouch!!), I do typically like to read both RR and BroDeal and am concerned about where you both are headed.



Dave.

Dave, the Phinneys did have a close association with Lance and were more than happy for Taylor to be inducted into his orbit.

of note: at the 2010 Worlds doping Conference in Geelong Australia, Connie the road champ at LA 84 was having a deep convo with Kathy Watt the tt gold medalist at the 88 Barca games.

blackcat would have been they only person to appreciate that female cycling success r/ship

 

[mewmewmew13]

Dave, the Phinneys did have a close association with Lance and were more than happy for Taylor to be inducted into his orbit.

of note: at the 2010 Worlds doping Conference in Geelong Australia, Connie the road champ at LA 84 was having a deep convo with Kathy Watt the tt gold medalist at the 88 Barca games.

blackcat would have been they only person to appreciate that female cycling success r/ship

As a beginning cyclist Armstrong's devo group had the best program , resources and opportunity in the country. It was a great place to be a young cyclist and it was high profile..

On the other side of the coin..Taylor was shuttled out of Armstrong's team very rapidly a couple of years later and it was obvious that mom & dad wanted NO association with Lance and his impending collapse if you remember. Completely cut all ties.

Connie is definitely in charge of her son's training and management. She always has been.
She used to talk to Lance in public if you are insinuating that by speaking in public to a doper makes you one as well…she is most definitely anti doping.

 

[Granville57]

As a beginning cyclist Armstrong's devo group had the best program , resources and opportunity in the country. It was a great place to be a young cyclist and it was high profile..

On the other side of the coin..Taylor was shuttled out of Armstrong's team very rapidly a couple of years later and it was obvious that mom & dad wanted NO association with Lance and his impending collapse if you remember. Completely cut all ties.

That being said, it made little sense then, and not much more now, for Taylor to leave Clean Team Garmin (many people forget that he started there) and step in the Lance/Johan den. What could the Phinney's—as steeped in pro cycling, and in U.S. cycling in particular, as anyone alive—not know, or be aware of, as to what went on in Lance's orbit?

And what would've suddenly changed for them to "cut all ties" besides PR issues? They could not have been that naive. I've always viewed Taylor with a bit of suspicion since then.

 

[BroDeal]

I thought "this forum blows" and you were out of here?

Are you taking a break from your usual and frequent allegations that Thom Weisel plus his Illuminati are behind everything from suspect global warming statistics to the increase in autism? Here's a clue. Every time a rider punctures it is not because Weisel spread tacks on the road. He is not hiding behind every bush twirling a Snidley Whiplash mustache while chortling.

 

[Granville57]

Connie is definitely in charge of her son's training and management. She always has been.

I'm reminded of this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=3713156

The Phinneys regard this venture as a brilliant merger of common interests and goals, enhanced by a deep personal connection. They trust Armstrong unwaveringly and are confident he will marshal the right resources to bring Taylor along.

They're also aware that Armstrong will be seen as a dubious mentor by those who view him with suspicion or worse because of the perennial doping allegations against him.

"I'm sure we're going to get a lot of flak," Davis Phinney said. "Connie and I are just going to have to absorb that. Lance is my friend, and I believe in him. I've been around the guy quite a bit lately, and I think there's no better person to usher my son into the sport."

Added Carpenter, who first met Armstrong when he was a teenaged triathlete: "We have broad shoulders."

"This was the opportunity to create something new," Carpenter said. "I think my child will get an incredible civics lesson being under [Armstrong's] wing, as well as lessons in being a great bike racer."

Now, if I were the cynical type...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I'm reminded of this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=3713156



Now, if I were the cynical type...

Your memory is incredible.

 

[mewmewmew13]

I'm reminded of this:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/columns/story?id=3713156



Now, if I were the cynical type...

Sadly a lot of old friends have stated that they 'believe in him'…
pretty sure there are a lot of angry and disappointed old friends…

Armstong shiiit on everyone.

 

[Cal_Joe]

And that is because the only other one doing it has been banned 200 times......

Sorry, another misperception perpetuated in The Clinic. There are a lot of posts (I do believe that one or more of them may have been posted under this account) that consistently ask Mr. Race Radio to back up his conjectures with facts, links, etc. Many times that additional information does not make it into a thread. Perhaps Mr. Race Radio should contact the forum technical support boffins if some of his musings are not posted.

Lately this place is nothing but spin and taking sides and screw any pretense at objectivity. Regarding the Hincapie spat, there are links to the Detroit Free Press "article", the CN "interpretation" of that article, affidavits, documentaries, etc. I would encourage all to thoroughly read and re-read those and make up their own mind.

 

[Granville57]

Your memory is incredible.

Please report to my high school Western Civilization teacher. He may beg to differ with you.

 

[Race Radio]

Sorry, another misperception perpetuated in The Clinic. There are a lot of posts (I do believe that one or more of them may have been posted under this account) that consistently ask Mr. Race Radio to back up his conjectures with facts, links, etc. Many times that additional information does not make it into a thread. Perhaps Mr. Race Radio should contact the forum technical support boffins if some of his musings are not posted.

Lately this place is nothing but spin and taking sides and screw any pretense at objectivity. Regarding the Hincapie spat, there are links to the Detroit Free Press "article", the CN "interpretation" of that article, affidavits, documentaries, etc. I would encourage all to thoroughly read and re-read those and make up their own mind.

another guy who does not read posts.

I, and others, have given multiple links, facts, etc. You choose to ignore them....that does not mean they do not exist.

My point is clear. George's few public comments on doping have been focused on smearing Frankie. He has not addressed his decade of doping, he has focused on Frankie. I have given multiple links and facts to support this reality, which is why most here agree with me.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Sorry, another misperception perpetuated in The Clinic. There are a lot of posts (I do believe that one or more of them may have been posted under this account) that consistently ask Mr. Race Radio to back up his conjectures with facts, links, etc. Many times that additional information does not make it into a thread. Perhaps Mr. Race Radio should contact the forum technical support boffins if some of his musings are not posted.

Lately this place is nothing but spin and taking sides and screw any pretense at objectivity. Regarding the Hincapie spat, there are links to the Detroit Free Press "article", the CN "interpretation" of that article, affidavits, documentaries, etc. I would encourage all to thoroughly read and re-read those and make up their own mind.

I said people who called RR a liar, not those who asked for links, but you go ahead and react to what you think you heard.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry, another misperception perpetuated in The Clinic. There are a lot of posts (I do believe that one or more of them may have been posted under this account) that consistently ask Mr. Race Radio to back up his conjectures with facts, links, etc. Many times that additional information does not make it into a thread. Perhaps Mr. Race Radio should contact the forum technical support boffins if some of his musings are not posted.

Hmm, yet when I ask for links, facts, etc I get the vortex treatment or called a pedant. Good.

I agree with you - if someone makes a claim or gives clear opinion they should be asked to back it up.
Obviously, if its super secret info, then I don't expect a link or quote.
But the person saying stuff should acknowledge that and then its up to the reader to decide.

Whats happened here is that RR has often shared info that ultimately turns out true or accurate - others who also make bold claims have been shown to be in la la land.

Lately this place is nothing but spin and taking sides and screw any pretense at objectivity. Regarding the Hincapie spat, there are links to the Detroit Free Press "article", the CN "interpretation" of that article, affidavits, documentaries, etc. I would encourage all to thoroughly read and re-read those and make up their own mind.

Totally agree.
Unfortunately some have not done so even though most of the info has been posted here.

 

[Merckx index]

Sorry, another misperception perpetuated in The Clinic. There are a lot of posts (I do believe that one or more of them may have been posted under this account) that consistently ask Mr. Race Radio to back up his conjectures with facts, links, etc. Many times that additional information does not make it into a thread.

Of course. Most recently, RR’s support for Froome/Sky has met with a lot of opposition here. There have been other issues where some of us have criticized him for promoting views that are not backed up at all by facts, e.g., his claim that Ullrich and Pantani had a certain type of musculature that allowed them to benefit from EPO more than other riders. Or a short, mysterious post implying Bassons was not clean, but never AFAIK responding to queries to expand on that. And of course a long argument between him and thehog, which ended up with both of them being suspended for a while, and thehog again after that.

But guess what? These and other examples simply show how absurd BroDeal’s characterization of the Clinic as monolithic in its opinions is. We aren’t afraid to disagree with RR or anyone else here. We have found over time that RR is usually right when he reports in advance of some important news about to break. He definitely has insider knowledge that most of the rest of us don’t have. But his interpretations of that knowledge are fair game. He has never been above criticism here.

Lately this place is nothing but spin and taking sides and screw any pretense at objectivity. Regarding the Hincapie spat, there are links to the Detroit Free Press "article", the CN "interpretation" of that article, affidavits, documentaries, etc. I would encourage all to thoroughly read and re-read those and make up their own mind.

I think you mean "this thread", not "this place". A lot gets discussed here besides Armstrong. I agree with you that there has been a lot of spin, but I think most who have posted on this thread during the argument have read the DFP article.

 

[Granville57]

You are just another one of the nonsensical slugs on this site whose intellectual IQ is about the same as your chronological age.

Eh...I'm not too sure you're helping your case with that one, Robbie.

Not too sure at all.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Eh...I'm not too sure you're helping your case with that one, Robbie.

Not too sure at all.

When you have something relevant and germane to say about "Official Lance Armstrong Thread Part 3 (Post Concussion)" say it! Until then get off your judgmental high horse.

 

[Cal_Joe]

another guy who does not read posts.

I, and others, have given multiple links, facts, etc. You choose to ignore them....that does not mean they do not exist.

My point is clear. George's few public comments on doping have been focused on smearing Frankie. He has not addressed his decade of doping, he has focused on Frankie. I have given multiple links and facts to support this reality, which is why most here agree with me.

As you do not appear to actually respond to the substance of my post, I will quote it here so that others can clearly see it.

Sorry, another misperception perpetuated in The Clinic. There are a lot of posts (I do believe that one or more of them may have been posted under this account) that consistently ask Mr. Race Radio to back up his conjectures with facts, links, etc. Many times that additional information does not make it into a thread. Perhaps Mr. Race Radio should contact the forum technical support boffins if some of his musings are not posted.

Lately this place is nothing but spin and taking sides and screw any pretense at objectivity. Regarding the Hincapie spat, there are links to the Detroit Free Press "article", the CN "interpretation" of that article, affidavits, documentaries, etc. I would encourage all to thoroughly read and re-read those and make up their own mind.

I beg to differ - I have read the posts. And I have mentioned the links that have been posted by others.

The fact that "Most" here agree with you is a disingenuous and circular argument that does not delve into the heart of the matter.

Playing the "ignore" card is equally disingenuous. If you have the time, please point out exactly what part of my original post indicates ignorance on what topic.

If you revisit some of the thoughtful posts by Mr. Granville57, I do believe that the reliance on the Detroit Free Press article could possibly be misplaced. My experience with the press over several decades in which I have been interviewed and quoted has left me with the following observations:

- The interviewer has no understanding of the subject matter or person he is interviewing, and gets things wrong 50% to 75% of the time. Misquotes may come into play.

- The editor has no understanding of the reporter, subject matter or person that was interviewed, and gets things wrong 50% to 75% of the time.

- The headline writer has no understanding of the editor, reporter, subject matter or person that was interviewed, and gets things wrong 50% to 75% of the time.

The result? In my humble opinion, unless that Detroit Free Press article was accompanied by a non-edited video of the interview, it has to be considered for what it is - a small article in a small paper.

Could the interviewer/reporter, editor, and headline writer have all done their job at a 100% correct rate? Most certainly, they could have. In which case your posts evidencing ultimate faith in that article may have some basis in fact.

The question is, did they? And to hang your hat on that 100% probability is something you should ask yourself. As should others.

 

[Race Radio]

Of course. Most recently, RR’s support for Froome/Sky has met with a lot of opposition here. There have been other issues where some of us have criticized him for promoting views that are not backed up at all by facts, e.g., his claim that Ullrich and Pantani had a certain type of musculature that allowed them to benefit from EPO more than other riders. Or a short, mysterious post implying Bassons was not clean, but never AFAIK responding to queries to expand on that. And of course a long argument between him and thehog, which ended up with both of them being suspended for a while, and thehog again after that.

But guess what? These and other examples simply show how absurd BroDeal’s characterization of the Clinic as monolithic in its opinions is. We aren’t afraid to disagree with RR or anyone else here. We have found over time that RR is usually right when he reports in advance of some important news about to break. He definitely has insider knowledge that most of the rest of us don’t have. But his interpretations of that knowledge are fair game. He has never been above criticism here.



I think you mean "this thread", not "this place". A lot gets discussed here besides Armstrong. I agree with you that there has been a lot of spin, but I think most who have posted on this thread during the argument have read the DFP article.

This is not the thread for it but I have never said Bassons was anything but clean. I also gave several links and background info about regarding the various elements that result in out sized benefit from Oxygen vector doping (Hct, Vo2, weight, muscle mass)

 

[Race Radio]

I beg to differ - I have read the posts.

Then why do you pretend the facts are not in there?

My position is clear and I have have backed it up multiple times. If you have trouble with it then please provide specifics, not some long rambling post that addresses nothing