Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[MarkvW]

Hein was, but how many others had the ball or the bucks to think they could pay off the UCI?

So you're arguing that Lance was the only cheating cyclist with the nerve?

 

[RownhamHill]

So you're arguing that Lance was the only cheating cyclist with the nerve?

I don't think anyone is arguing that Verbuggen was only corrupt with regards to Lance. Indeed it really doesn't matter - in this particular context - whether Ulrich (or whoever else) was paying off Verbuggen as well (though, given the UCI's subsequent dogged pursuit of Jan, at best you can imagine he must have missed a payment somewhere along the line).

The point is pretty simple: Lance did conspire with Verbuggen to cheat; that's a bad thing in and of itself; and anyone is entitled to judge Lance harshly for that exercise of his own free will.

 

[Race Radio]

Do you really believe what you're writing? You're using the "never tested positive" line of argument to defend Verbruggen's and the UCI's honor.

Dude, you gotta step up your game. Way too transparent.

Compare the UCI's treatment of Lance with the UCI's treatment of Ullrich. While Lance was getting advanced notice of Out Of Competition Controls Jan tested positive during a surprise OOC in 2002.....do you realize how rare OOC's were in 2002? Especially for a rider who was not even racing due to a knee injury.

While the UCI was did everything possible to obstruct the USADA inquiry. McQuaid told witnesses to not cooperate with the investigation. The UCI aided in his absurd attempt to stop the case in Federal courts. They flooded the media with ridiculous jurisdictional nonsense.

Meanwhile the UCI pursued Ullrich for 6 years after he retired. They went after him using multiple jurisdictions with a tiny fraction of the evidence USADA had on Lance. The kept pursuing him, filing multiple appeals to CAS.

All this while Verburggen and Armstrong are working on a deal worth almost a Billion $$$.

Level playing field?

 

[the sceptic]

Do you really believe what you're writing? You're using the "never tested positive" line of argument to defend Verbruggen's and the UCI's honor.

I would think the difference between doping and corruption is that corruption would only be for the big time players..

That said though it seems hard to imagine it would be reserved for Lance only.

 

[veganrob]

Dude, you gotta step up your game. Way too transparent.

Compare the UCI's treatment of Lance with the UCI's treatment of Ullrich. While Lance was getting advanced notice of Out Of Competition Controls Jan tested positive during a surprise OOC in 2002.....do you realize how rare OOC's were in 2002? Especially for a rider who was not even racing due to a knee injury.

While the UCI was did everything possible to obstruct the USADA inquiry. McQuaid told witnesses to not cooperate with the investigation. The UCI aided in his absurd attempt to stop the case in Federal courts. They flooded the media with ridiculous jurisdictional nonsense.

Meanwhile the UCI pursued Ullrich for 6 years after he retired. They went after him using multiple jurisdictions with a tiny fraction of the evidence USADA had on Lance. The kept pursuing him, filing multiple appeals to CAS.

All this while Verburggen and Armstrong are working on a deal worth almost a Billion $$$.

Level playing field?

That would seem to make sense to most people.

 

[Bluenote]

I think somewhere in these 9000+ posts all these opinions (Armstrong - victim of witch hunt? Armstrong - singled out?) have been debated at least one time (oh, let's get real, scores of times).

Bringing them up over and over seems like a) trolling b) sour grapes c) excessively attacking other poster's views d) inability to "agree to disagree" e) all of the above.

It'd be interesting to see if posters 'ignored' arguing (well, really re-re-re arguing) Armstrong's treatment or relative guilt and just stuck to discussing new ground, the SCA Case, the Qui Tam, etc..., what this thread would look like.

I think it would be shorter (much shorter), less acrimonious and much more readable.

Just agree to disagree, put certain posters on ignore and move on.

 

[D-Queued]

So you're arguing that Lance was the only cheating cyclist with the nerve?

Mark, you have followed this story for a long time.

Are you suggesting that Lance and Hein were not in cahoots?

I hope not, because that is a fool's errand or the last dying efforts of a die-hard fanboy. Some parts of history could be rewritten, but not this part.

Or, are you honestly wondering about further examples of Hein's blurry ethical lines?

If so, please recall how the Festina bans were shortened such that they didn't even take a full off season. Or, consider that the UCI was the very last ISO to sign the WADA code.

'Nuff said.

Or, are you trying to understand how the Lance and Hein relationship developed?

Even that is pretty well known, and you must be well aware of it.

They started small, but they started down the wrong path early.

Just a small matter of a cortisone cover-up. Kind of like their first kiss. And, as the Brits say, in for a penny, in for a Pound.

Ullrich was not so fortunate as to have been able to have an easy conspiration with Hein. Ullrich is also not a socio/psychopath, and wasn't looking to exploit everyone all the time.

Besides, what would Lance say if Hein were nice to Jan? Heck, Lance was probably whispering in Hein's ear, "That choad's a cheater". "They all do it".

He was, after all, stating that to everyone else.

Dave.

 

[Oldman]

I would think the difference between doping and corruption is that corruption would only be for the big time players..

That said though it seems hard to imagine it would be reserved for Lance only.

You think he wasn't shaking down others? That is naïve. As for playing favorite with Lance remember the long scam was buying the Tour. If they'd pulled that off they'd own the sport. Of course he could lean on Ullrich if there was a greater incentive. There was also the chain of positives for almost any former Lance teammate that represented some opposition.

 

[Microchip]

Could you imagine what would've happened had they been successful in buying the tour? I doubt Wonderboy would've ever confessed to doping.

First, he would eliminate the GT contenders especially Contador, who would've never won a single Tour.

Next, he'd eliminate anyone showing promise - well, the whole peloton actually - by having them test positive in a race prior to the TDF.

Then, he'd come back from retirement and win, and win again, and again, until he reached 50 wins.

What else would he have done...? Hmm...

 

[Benotti69]

First, he would eliminate the GT contenders especially Contador, who would've never won a single Tour.

Next, he'd eliminate anyone showing promise - well, the whole peloton actually - by having them test positive in a race prior to the TDF.

Then, he'd come back from retirement and win, and win again, and again, until he reached 50 wins.

What else would he have done...? Hmm...

I actually think Hein&Co would've sidelined Armstrong very quickly as he would've realised what a liability Armstrong is. I think that Hein&Co would've 'concocted' Armstrong to test positive at some stage to eliminate him from the sport and as a thorn in their side.

 

[Microchip]

I actually think Hein&Co would've sidelined Armstrong very quickly as he would've realised what a liability Armstrong is. I think that Hein&Co would've 'concocted' Armstrong to test positive at some stage to eliminate him from the sport and as a thorn in their side.

Interesting! Never thought of that. Perhaps I hadn't viewed Hein & Company as that formidable.

 

[Oldman]

I actually think Hein&Co would've sidelined Armstrong very quickly as he would've realised what a liability Armstrong is. I think that Hein&Co would've 'concocted' Armstrong to test positive at some stage to eliminate him from the sport and as a thorn in their side.

You assume Armstrong and Weisel wouldn't threaten to turn over that Cayman Island bank acct. number to Interpol? There is always a shared destructive element to these relationships to keep folks "honest".

 

[Hemassist]

You assume Armstrong and Weisel wouldn't threaten to turn over that Cayman Island bank acct. number to Interpol? There is always a shared destructive element to these relationships to keep folks "honest".

Wouldn't surprise me if the scam goes back tohis cancer.

Vaughters stated: ‘Early on at a Postal Service training camp I had a conversation with Lance in which he told me that the UCI should have detected a high level of HCG in his doping controls when he had cancer but had failed to do so.

‘Thus, in Lance’s eyes the UCI was somewhat at fault for the extent of his cancer…Lance said, “if I ever have a doping problem, I have this card to play.”’

Since then, the crimes and mutual back-scratching worked for both of them and propelled him to become Cancer Jesus...at least until Floyd & Tyler opened up. Lance was an infallible cash-cow for them* until this point.

Edit: The UCI.

 

[ChrisE]

That would seem to make sense to most people.

Yes, it would make sense to most omniscient readers that can confirm what he wrote. For the rest of us....

JU got busted for an OOC test for something other than a PED. Ergo that proves he didn't have protection for any AAF during competition. Gotcha.

The UCI 'pusued' JU after he got busted in OP in 2006, 10 years after he turned pro. The UCI does have some public history of protecting other riders, such as AC until that too became public. The sport has a history of avoiding controversy, which AAF's bring. It makes sense to some of us rubes that more was being swept under the rug than LA's doping.

Just because something is not known in the public does not mean it did not occur. Some of us that are not as smart as veganrob and RR might look at the sport and numerous alleged doped performances with no AAF, and use some deductive reasoning skills to conclude there is something fishy here.

But whatever. Carry on.

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, it would make sense to most omniscient readers that can confirm what he wrote. For the rest of us....

JU got busted for an OOC test for something other than a PED. Ergo that proves he didn't have protection for any AAF during competition. Gotcha.

The UCI 'pusued' JU after he got busted in OP in 2006, 10 years after he turned pro. The UCI does have some public history of protecting other riders, such as AC until that too became public. The sport has a history of avoiding controversy, which AAF's bring. It makes sense to some of us rubes that more was being swept under the rug than LA's doping.

Just because something is not known in the public does not mean it did not occur. Some of us that are not as smart as veganrob and RR might look at the sport and numerous alleged doped performances with no AAF, and use some deductive reasoning skills to conclude there is something fishy here.

But whatever. Carry on.

UCI seems to be 'pusue-ing' little nowadays. But whatever. Carry on.

 

[mrhender]

Dude, you gotta step up your game. Way too transparent.

Compare the UCI's treatment of Lance with the UCI's treatment of Ullrich. While Lance was getting advanced notice of Out Of Competition Controls Jan tested positive during a surprise OOC in 2002.....do you realize how rare OOC's were in 2002? Especially for a rider who was not even racing due to a knee injury.

While the UCI was did everything possible to obstruct the USADA inquiry. McQuaid told witnesses to not cooperate with the investigation. The UCI aided in his absurd attempt to stop the case in Federal courts. They flooded the media with ridiculous jurisdictional nonsense.

Meanwhile the UCI pursued Ullrich for 6 years after he retired. They went after him using multiple jurisdictions with a tiny fraction of the evidence USADA had on Lance. The kept pursuing him, filing multiple appeals to CAS.

All this while Verburggen and Armstrong are working on a deal worth almost a Billion $$$.

Level playing field?

Just read the old article on the matter.. What a drama.. Can't decide wether to laugh or cry...
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=features/2007/McQuaid_rejects_ASO_claims07

Clerc directly accused the governing body on Friday evening of being involved in disclosure of this information, suggesting that there could be an ulterior motive. "I have to ask certain questions about the UCI and their timing," he said. "Why are they bringing this up now when they had the information last month?"

UCI president Pat McQuaid has reacted angrily to this, rejecting suggestions that the UCI were involved in the release of such information while Rasmussen was in yellow. He said that he is demanding an apology from ASO over these suggestions plus a heated phone call made to him by Prudhomme on Thursday night.

McQuaid said that he tried to discuss the claims with Prudhomme but that he wouldn’t allow him to speak.

I am really, really annoyed with ASO. They are paranoid about the UCI and the fact that they think the UCI is out to get them. We had absolutely nothing to do with this [the release of the news when Rasmussen was in the yellow jersey]. For ASO to come along and accuse the UCI that they are out to damage the Tour de France – particularly after the anti-doping efforts we made before the race with the new charter - is absolutely inexplicable.

“When he [Rasmussen] missed the UCI tests in June, we sent him a letter and told them that he is now on his final chance. It explained that he had missed two tests and that if he misses a third test, that he would be declared a positive case and that proceedings will open up against him. He would then be suspended until such time as those proceedings are finished.

“He did do an out of competition control after that, in late June, and did the blood tests prior to the Tour de France. The results of those are negative.”

As regards claims that the UCI or the Danish Cycling Union should have communicated the news about Rasmussen’s missed tests, he said that the UCI could not do so until such time as the rider was sanctioned for missing three of them.

“In doing the out of competition controls, chasing people around and testing them, the UCI isn't obligated – in fact we are not supposed to – disclose such information. There is a fair amount of confidentiality in all of that and if there is a case whereby a rider gets a warning because he is on his last chance, the UCI doesn't and shouldn't make that public. It shouldn’t put that into the public domain. So, again, for ASO to accuse the UCI of having information in advance of the Tour de France and not sharing it with them is completely wrong. We are not supposed to share that information with anybody.”

 

[ChrisE]

UCI seems to be 'pusue-ing' little nowadays. But whatever. Carry on.

Exactly. Why is that?

It's implied by RR everybody but LA got pursued or is being pursued.

 

[Benotti69]

Exactly. Why is that?

It's implied by RR everybody but LA got pursued or is being pursued.

Maybe the UCI got behind less narcissistic pr**ks who can also ride bikes and not boast about it.

 

[Benotti69]

You assume Armstrong and Weisel wouldn't threaten to turn over that Cayman Island bank acct. number to Interpol? There is always a shared destructive element to these relationships to keep folks "honest".

No I think Weisel and Hein would've ditched Armstrong in the running of ASO/TdF, because Armstrong being the narcissistic P Rick he is he would want to be Caesar.

If Armstrong knew lots why has he not turned Weisel/Hein over now as he is about loose his a$$?

 

[Oldman]

No I think Weisel and Hein would've ditched Armstrong in the running of ASO/TdF, because Armstrong being the narcissistic P Rick he is he would want to be Caesar.

If Armstrong knew lots why has he not turned Weisel/Hein over now as he is about loose his a$$?

He may have or want to. Depends on which lawsuit you're talking about. SCA just wants money. USPS could be interested in much deeper things but, again; it's mostly about money.

 

[ChrisE]

Maybe the UCI got behind less narcissistic pr**ks who can also ride bikes and not boast about it.

You're not making sense. Sorry, but I haven't been around enough lately to be up on the pitchfork crew code, if that's what this is.

Are you saying that after LA, they decided to dial down the personality of the ones they protect? Like JU? He's certainly less narcissistic than LA. Oops, he supposedly wasn't protected.

It seems that you are just talking ****. At least that is more interesting than the "doping boogieman under every rock" shtick you usually spew.

 

[Benotti69]

You're not making sense. Sorry, but I haven't been around enough lately to be up on the pitchfork crew code, if that's what this is.

Are you saying that after LA, they decided to dial down the personality of the ones they protect? Like JU? He's certainly less narcissistic than LA. Oops, he supposedly wasn't protected.

It seems that you are just talking ****. At least that is more interesting than the "doping boogieman under every rock" shtick you usually spew.

I can get you a nice nearly new pitchfork that the witch hunt crew dropped when they ran away.................

 

[DirtyWorks]

..
If Armstrong knew lots why has he not turned Weisel/Hein over now as he is about loose his a$$?

I can imagine two reasons:

1 - IMO, he knows that it doesn't lessen his ban one bit. Throwing Wiesel under the bus then fuels the notion the IOC corruption is widespread, thus damaging the "Olympic brand."

2 - At this point, it seems obvious the CIRC is setting Wonderboy up for a shot at a lessened ban. Maybe the UCI's game is to keep Wonderboy quiet with the promise of a shot at a reduced ban. The CIRC will likely be another Vrijman Report with the IOC giving the final word on reducing the ban based on the PR impact.

C'mon Wonderboy! Landis did it right and now many forgive him. Fight Wonderboy! Be a champion once more!

 

[Benotti69]

I can imagine two reasons:

1 - IMO, he knows that it doesn't lessen his ban one bit. Throwing Wiesel under the bus then fuels the notion the IOC corruption is widespread, thus damaging the "Olympic brand."

To a sociopathic narcissist who is never getting an invite to compete at IOC/WADA events wouldn't give 2 figs about that. If he kept his $$$$ he could run his own events.

2 - At this point, it seems obvious the CIRC is setting Wonderboy up for a shot at a lessened ban. Maybe the UCI's game is to keep Wonderboy quiet with the promise of a shot at a reduced ban. The CIRC will likely be another Vrijman Report with the IOC giving the final word on reducing the ban based on the PR impact.

My guess is he will try and do a deal (á la Di Luca) where it is alleged he fully co-operated and gets a reduction to a 4 year ban or something similarly ridiculous.

C'mon Wonderboy! Landis did it right and now many forgive him. Fight Wonderboy! Be a champion once more!

I hope he realises in the qui tam case that all his dollars are being sucked out of him and he has very little chance to ever recoup that loss in the future and sucks Stapelton, Weisel, Knaggs, Burke, Nike, Oakley, Hein, Pat and the whole gang into it on record!

 

[Bosco10]

My guess is he will try and do a deal (á la Di Luca) where it is alleged he fully co-operated and gets a reduction to a 4 year ban or something similarly ridiculous.

Lance just turned 43. What do y'all think? Will he be competing again at 45?