Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re:

...Not sure why he feels he has to play the victim card....

How to Spot a Sociopath:

1. Look for a lack of shame. Most sociopaths can commit vile actions and not feel the least bit of remorse...
...When a sociopath does something wrong, he or she is likely to accept none of the blame and to blame others instead....

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

...Not sure why he feels he has to play the victim card....

How to Spot a Sociopath:

1. Look for a lack of shame. Most sociopaths can commit vile actions and not feel the least bit of remorse...
...When a sociopath does something wrong, he or she is likely to accept none of the blame and to blame others instead....

JB a sociopath!?!

Next thing you're gonna say is that Jack Ruby acted alone!

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re: Re:

...Not sure why he feels he has to play the victim card....

How to Spot a Sociopath:

1. Look for a lack of shame. Most sociopaths can commit vile actions and not feel the least bit of remorse...
...When a sociopath does something wrong, he or she is likely to accept none of the blame and to blame others instead....

JB a sociopath!?!

Next thing you're gonna say is that Jack Ruby acted alone!

I thought the "victim card" remark was directed at LA, not JB (English is not my first language, and I sometimes lose the plot).

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

...Not sure why he feels he has to play the victim card....

How to Spot a Sociopath:

1. Look for a lack of shame. Most sociopaths can commit vile actions and not feel the least bit of remorse...
...When a sociopath does something wrong, he or she is likely to accept none of the blame and to blame others instead....

JB a sociopath!?!

Next thing you're gonna say is that Jack Ruby acted alone!

I thought the "victim card" remark was directed at LA, not JB (English is not my first language, and I sometimes lose the plot).

Fine ... but even with LA ... totally off the mark.

Your remark is totally in line with the hysterical exaggerations created by the media, including this thread.

Psychiatric diagnoses handed out like Halloween candy. Button in the box.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Fine ... but even with LA ... totally off the mark.

Your remark is totally in line with the hysterical exaggerations created by the media, including this thread.

Psychiatric diagnoses handed out like Halloween candy. Button in the box.

I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles... Or perhaps you, fine sir, aren't worth the chair you are sitting on? Of course it's normal to continue to berate your mechanic's pregnant wife over the phone while said mechanic is having a seizure. These are all normal traits of a healthy human. Get drunk and plow into a car? Let your girlfriend take the blame! Old friend and teammate in town? Fly thousands of miles just so you can be in their face in a fancy restaurant.

Yup! Not a sociopath.

John Swanson

 

[aphronesis]

How is "believe in miracles" sociopathic. Does that make Obama a sociopath. Ullrich got drunk and plowed into a car. I guess it's only if your woman is willing to take the weight that makes one sociopathic?

The chair remark while not entirely truthful isn't really sociopathic either if one views it from the anthropological/sociological bias of omerta.

If you're talking about the Cache Cache event, you might be a little fuzzy on your details. I haven't thought about it since it happened and I know that.

Sure you're clear on the support for this diagnosis?

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Fine ... but even with LA ... totally off the mark.

Your remark is totally in line with the hysterical exaggerations created by the media, including this thread.

Psychiatric diagnoses handed out like Halloween candy. Button in the box.

I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles... Or perhaps you, fine sir, aren't worth the chair you are sitting on? Of course it's normal to continue to berate your mechanic's pregnant wife over the phone while said mechanic is having a seizure. These are all normal traits of a healthy human. Get drunk and plow into a car? Let your girlfriend take the blame! Old friend and teammate in town? Fly thousands of miles just so you can be in their face in a fancy restaurant.

Yup! Not a sociopath.

John Swanson

John ... although, like you, I am not the mechanic, the wife, the girlfriend or the former team mate ... and although, like you, I am not privy to the salient details and context of the reported incidents ... I do accept that the incidents happened. From what I have read ... and that's how most of us hear about the incidents ... I judge them to be perpetrated by a guy who was, at the time of some of those incidents ... mean, nasty and hurtful.

But to extrapolate from these ... to a diagnosis of a long standing, pervasive pychiatric disorder ... is amateur science, at best ... and a bit nasty in its own right. I'm sure that your expertise in bicylcle wheel physics deserves due respect. But ... psychiatry ... you're probably underqualified.

Disappointing to see a purported scientist engaging in the confirmation bias and hysteria that runs this little engine known as The Clinic.

 

[rick james]

Who knew the clinic was a wash with psychiatrists

 

[Stingray34]

Re:

Who knew the clinic was a wash with psychiatrists

How long have you enjoyed bathing with professionals?

Tell me aboutz yur marther.

 

[Parker]

I'm no psychiatrist, but I've read Jon Ronson's 'The Psychopath Test' - which warns against amateur psychopath/sociopath spotting. However, I would suggest that that most likely cyclist to be a sociopath is not Armstrong but Rasmussen

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

We had a thread on LA and sociopathy a while back. He does tick a lot of the boxes, e.g.,

Superficial charm
Manipulative behavior
Grandiose sense of self
Pathological lying
Lack of remorse
Living on the edge
Lack of empathy
Poor impulse control
Juvenile delinquency
Sexual promiscuity
Changes life story to fit image

Obviously a lot of people exhibit one or perhaps several of these characteristics, but when you have a lot of them, you can at the very least talk about sociopathic behavior, or antisocial personality disorder. It’s been pointed out by several authors that many “successful” businessmen, CEOs, etc., also fit this profile (along with some well-known politicians). In fact, any highly competitive profession, which obviously includes pro sports, is likely to have its share of such people.

Psychiatrists themselves disagree over the classification. Obviously it’s not an either-or situation, but a matter of degree. There have been individuals who have exhibited far worse sociopathic behavior than LA, but if you think of it as a spectrum or scale, he is well beyond average, I think anyone should be able to agree with that.

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Re:

I'm no psychiatrist, but I've read Jon Ronson's 'The Psychopath Test' - which warns against amateur psychopath/sociopath spotting. However, I would suggest that that most likely cyclist to be a sociopath is not Armstrong but Rasmussen

One of the well-known stories about Rasmussen shows manipulative behavior in tricking a friend into assisting with a doping scheme, then lack of remorse about the consequences
http://www.velonews.com/2007/07/news/ex-cyclist-levels-doping-charges-at-rasmussen_12851

So that is quite possible, or some very slippery and reptilian behavior on his part, in any case.

To be a "sociopath" is not a medical diagnosis, it doesn't mean anything in particular. And neither is "psychopath" a diagnosis, but it's getting a lot closer to medico-legal territory, in which there are some well-established definitions.

Armstrong fits the profile of 'narcissistic personality disorder' in which there is both the manipulation and the grandiosity.

Michael "The Chicken" Rasmussen was not especially grandiose, unless I missed something

So you basically aren’t qualified to comment.

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

We had a thread on LA and sociopathy a while back. He does tick a lot of the boxes, e.g.,

Superficial charm
Manipulative behavior
Grandiose sense of self
Pathological lying
Lack of remorse
Living on the edge
Lack of empathy
Poor impulse control
Juvenile delinquency
Sexual promiscuity
Changes life story to fit image

Obviously a lot of people exhibit one or perhaps several of these characteristics, but when you have a lot of them, you can at the very least talk about sociopathic behavior, or antisocial personality disorder. It’s been pointed out by several authors that many “successful” businessmen, CEOs, etc., also fit this profile (along with some well-known politicians). In fact, any highly competitive profession, which obviously includes pro sports, is likely to have its share of such people.

Psychiatrists themselves disagree over the classification. Obviously it’s not an either-or situation, but a matter of degree. There have been individuals who have exhibited far worse sociopathic behavior than LA, but if you think of it as a spectrum or scale, he is well beyond average, I think anyone should be able to agree with that.

I wrote a response on your scale. But so what. One question.: How does that diagnosis advance anything?

But lets go on: he won bike races.

Impulse control: won bike races.

Living on the edge: won races.

Don’t misunderstand me: he’s a peer but not my friend. You guys are way unclear on your applications of terms and how they were developed.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

We had a thread on LA and sociopathy a while back. He does tick a lot of the boxes, e.g.,

Superficial charm
Manipulative behavior
Grandiose sense of self
Pathological lying
Lack of remorse
Living on the edge
Lack of empathy
Poor impulse control
Juvenile delinquency
Sexual promiscuity
Changes life story to fit image

Obviously a lot of people exhibit one or perhaps several of these characteristics, but when you have a lot of them, you can at the very least talk about sociopathic behavior, or antisocial personality disorder. It’s been pointed out by several authors that many “successful” businessmen, CEOs, etc., also fit this profile (along with some well-known politicians). In fact, any highly competitive profession, which obviously includes pro sports, is likely to have its share of such people.

Psychiatrists themselves disagree over the classification. Obviously it’s not an either-or situation, but a matter of degree. There have been individuals who have exhibited far worse sociopathic behavior than LA, but if you think of it as a spectrum or scale, he is well beyond average, I think anyone should be able to agree with that.

symptomchecker.com?

More confirmation bias behaviour .. ya gotta watch that stuff. Mole on your arm could be narcissistic.

 

[Merckx index]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

One question.: How does that diagnosis advance anything?

How does 98% of what’s posted on this forum advance anything? Calling attention to something isn’t necessarily meant to advance a cause.

Impulse control: won bike races.

The confrontation with Tyler. Other examples are recounted in Cycle of Lies. The fact that he could control his impulses enough to ride races more strategically (he had to learn this; he didn’t when he was younger) just suggests that racing might even have been a form of therapy for him. Just as Michael Phelps came to terms with ADHD through the structure of competitive swimming. The disorder didn't make him a better swimmer. Trying to avoid its consequences apparently did.

Living on the edge: won races.

An excellent example of why pro athletes may be especially disposed to this kind of behavior. Winning is a high, it’s a form of excessive stimulation that can be addictive. That’s what living on edge refers to.

You guys are way unclear on your applications of terms and how they were developed.

I think I’m pretty clear on the terms. I think you’re the one missing something.

Oh, and don't misunderstand me. I don't hate Lance. I think he should be allowed to ride wherever and whenever he wants. I also think he has tremendous energy that, focussed in the right place, could be very beneficial. I still think he has many qualities of that personality disorder.

 

[macbindle]

A lot of successful cyclists have been petulant a-holes. Look at Bernard Hinault.

Anyway, the rush to diagnose Armstrong as mental is everything to do with his prior diagnosis an archetypal successful American hero.

 

[Alpe73]

Re:

A lot of successful cyclists have been petulant a-holes. Look at Bernard Hinault.

Anyway, the rush to diagnose Armstrong as mental is everything to do with his prior diagnosis an archetypal successful American hero.

Fair ... and much closer to the mark, IMHO.

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Re:

So you basically aren’t qualified to comment.

Well, one of the two of us studied psychiatry and psychopharmacology in medical school... and the other didn't.
Sometimes people who may know about such things can point the curious in the direction of an answer to the questions they are debating. There's a long list of psychiatric disorders that one could say for sure Armstrong and Rasmussen don't have. The personality disorders would be the best place to look into if people insist on classifying them in one way or another.

One of the other two of us extensive study in the psych field as well toward different graduate outcomes, but has a dim view of the clinical application of these terms as developed in a priori “lab” studies and mapped onto reality.

Don’t misunderstand me: I didn’t like him at all then and am still undecided, but a bunch of guys doing armchair diagnoses and feeling smug only keeps the issues he posed at distance and in place throughout the world.

I won’t bother with the distortions that psychopharmacology has brought to the sphere of “mental health”.

I do agree with the possibility of your last sentence, but so what? How does that impact or inflect cycling and doping? The world is awash with personality disorders and naming them is mostly low level maintenance of normalizing populations.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

So you basically aren’t qualified to comment.

Well, one of the two of us studied psychiatry and psychopharmacology in medical school... and the other didn't.
Sometimes people who may know about such things can point the curious in the direction of an answer to the questions they are debating. There's a long list of psychiatric disorders that one could say for sure Armstrong and Rasmussen don't have. The personality disorders would be the best place to look into if people insist on classifying them in one way or another.

One of the other two of us extensive study in the psych field as well toward different graduate outcomes, but has a dim view of the clinical application of these terms as developed in a priori “lab” studies and mapped onto reality.

Don’t misunderstand me: I didn’t like him at all then and am still undecided, but a bunch of guys doing armchair diagnoses and feeling smug only keeps the issues he posed at distance and in place throughout the world.

I won’t bother with the distortions that psychopharmacology has brought to the sphere of “mental health”.

I do agree with the possibility of your last sentence, but so what? How does that impact or inflect cycling and doping? The world is awash with personality disorders and naming them is mostly low level maintenance of normalizing populations.

Once the media helicopters have tired of circling this tale ... and their chat room, movie, cycling blog, investigative blockbuster scuds (sociopath, ruined cycling, ban him forever, hope he loses every penny, Bassons will dance on his grave) have bounced off, unremarkably, the stratosphere of rational debate ... there will be time to put Lance and his actions into perspective in terms of professional cycling and professional sports.

By that time, as MI suggests, I'll wager he 'll have moved on ... to making some decent contributions to pro cycling. Invariably, there will still be chain ring biters. Cultural lag. Can't live with it; can't live without it. :geek:

 

[ScienceIsCool]

What's the deal with trying to rehabilitate Mr. Gunderson? He's a scum bag with evidence in abundance. What has he done to try ameliorate any of what he's done? A few phone calls and the tour of contriteness? Meh. He's left a big stain on the best parts of cycling. For that he can eff off and not come back. End of.

John Swanson

 

[aphronesis]

Did he light your dog on fire? Big death penalty fan are you? He’s part of the history of the sport. You know history? Objective? Comprehensive? Balanced? Of which your posts to this thread aren’t.

We’re not talking Holocaust denial.

 

[macbindle]

His greatest crime was to get caught.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

His greatest crime was to get caught.

Hahaha! Cancer Jesus' greatest crime was getting caught. Livestrong.com? Or is it Livestrong.org? Hummm. Nobody got confused over that one and made Lance millions while diverting cash from cancer not-research.

John Swanson

 

[aphronesis]

Oh, look: it's rerun season. Let me get my rosary.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

His greatest crime was to get caught.

Hahaha! Cancer Jesus' greatest crime was getting caught. Livestrong.com? Or is it Livestrong.org? Hummm. Nobody got confused over that one and made Lance millions while diverting cash from cancer not-research.

John Swanson

Clinic T-shirt logo-style haymaker ... a ‘scanned for bias’ browse of a discredited O.O. article dart ... a disease research vs disease support monkey wrench thrown in for dramatic effect. You’re loaded today, John.