Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

His greatest crime was to get caught.

Hahaha! Cancer Jesus' greatest crime was getting caught. Livestrong.com? Or is it Livestrong.org? Hummm. Nobody got confused over that one and made Lance millions while diverting cash from cancer not-research.

John Swanson

Clinic T-shirt logo-style haymaker ... a ‘scanned for bias’ browse of a discredited O.O. article dart ... a disease research vs disease support monkey wrench thrown in for dramatic effect. You’re loaded today, John.

I'll concede if you can tell me how many, out of all those millions, went to cancer research. If you look it up, it was all about cancer "awareness" which saint cancer Jesus spent cash to go on the lecture circuit. He also pocketed speaking fees at each event while flying on a private jet paid for by the foundation.

Oh yeah, and there was a place where you could go to get pamphlets on the resources for cancer patients in your neighborhood. And I am sincere that they probably connected patients and families with existing programs and resources. That's not bad.

John Swanson

 

[aphronesis]

Tax deductible money that went to him instead of the US govt. Gosh, it's a conundrum isn't it? I'm feeling the outrage.

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

His greatest crime was to get caught.

Hahaha! Cancer Jesus' greatest crime was getting caught. Livestrong.com? Or is it Livestrong.org? Hummm. Nobody got confused over that one and made Lance millions while diverting cash from cancer not-research.

John Swanson

Its the best I could manage after drinking a keg of Budvar watching PR.

But you miss the wider point I was making

 

[Alpe73]

Re:

Oh, look: it's rerun season. Let me get my rosary.

You're right ... seriously. My bad.

 

[53*11]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession

we have very short memories do we not? its amazing to see seemingly intelligent people try to minimise the damage LA did to cycling and to his charities, and in doing so support the notion that LA ''wasnt all bad, or wasnt really a terrible person''. He was, and i think still is a terrible human being (just listen to podcasts of recent interviews in the last 2 years and its clear his sociopathic tendencies are still there and he is totally lacking in remorse for what he did, in fact he recently stated he 'would probably do it again'')

 

[aphronesis]

Right. So he should open every podcast groveling to you and your great aunt for forgiveness? Damage to cycling? Please demonstrate.

 

[53*11]

Re:

Right. So he should open every podcast groveling to you and your great aunt for forgiveness? Damage to cycling? Please demonstrate.

i dont want his apology! he does own the sport an apology though. i am simply pointing out that he has all the hallmark traits of a remorseless sociopath, * see below. i dont see you propose a counter argument with supporting facts?;
as to damage to the sport? well take your pick of these then bud;
- running 'the most sophisticated doping program in cycling'
- taking blood doping to a new level and thereby forcing others to do likewise, leading to neopros and younger riders also taking the EPO / blood doping path, leading to the deaths of younger riders
- forcing clean riders from the sport, cf cristoph basson
- relentless intimidation of team mates, team mates partners, rivals, media and anyone else who dared to questions his 'dreams',; cf walsh, kimmage, et al
- he frequently threatened legal action on media and other riders who dared raise the dope word in relation to him
- profiting to the tune of tens of millions from victories illegally obtained through said cheating
- using a cancer charity to keep the dollars rolling in his own accoun through endorsements (in fairness to him, he helped raise millions for this charity also)
- constantly denying the doping program he was using, until that cringeworthy interview on , of all places, oprah
- holding himself out as a survivor and a cause for hope for millions of people, knowing he was doping to win.

i repeat, he recently said he would do it all again; what does that tell you about him as a man?


*definition of a sociopath
the Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another."
source; the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) is the authority on mental illnesses published by the American Psychiatric Association.

 

[aphronesis]

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

 

[macbindle]

@ 53 Have you considered that his lack of remorse might be entirely rational?

Has Indurain expressed any remorse? Does Indurain feel any remorse? Have you asked him?

 

[53*11]

Re:

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

i think its time you showed what you got, show your cards, or are you sitting on a low hand of 2 + 7?!

 

[53*11]

Re:

@ 53 Have you considered that his lack of remorse might be entirely rational?

Has Indurain expressed any remorse? Does Indurain feel any remorse? Have you asked him?

lack of remorse is considered a classic sign of sociopathic nature by better minds than ours, so no, it is not rational.
(his cheating is likely to cost him upwards of 70M dollars soon enough)

indurain was not the cheater du jour of this thread.

not one of your better contributions mc?

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Re:

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

i think its time you showed what you got, show your cards, or are you sitting on a low hand of 2 + 7?!

I've showed what I have over multiple posts across threads. You said it damaged the sport. How?

Lack of remorse as interviewed by a clinician while in jail is not the same as a public figure managing their self business through media and public relations. You understand that yes? You as with a great many posters on this thread and in life have no idea what anyone else is thinking or feeling and are merely attaching labels in order to give your own reality some solidity and order.


Maybe you can link up the DSM studies on sociopaths at the top of industry and politics? Please do. I'd be excited to see it. Maybe you and some others could get the modern equivalent of torches and pitchforks and go to work.

No? Didn't think so.

He wasn't convicted by a court of public opinion, nor a criminal court. He was taken down by a disgruntled cyclist who didn't know how to play the game and some government berk looking to make a career for himself. Not to stop sport doping. Oh, and then the media and sponsors turned because they had to. Keep the good times rolling you know. What remorse is there to show? To whom?

The fact that LA continues to have traction puts the lie to all the moralizing hypocrites who weigh in here and only here to recite the litanies.

On topic: you can’t define the sport; you can’t say how he’s “damaged it” or how repeating his various transgressions (which are largely disconnected from bike racing) advances any understanding unless you can provide some analysis of how they came together.

If you want to know a hand beyond that: ask a question.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

i think its time you showed what you got, show your cards, or are you sitting on a low hand of 2 + 7?!

I've showed what I have over multiple posts across threads. You said it damaged the sport. How?

Lack of remorse as interviewed by a clinician while in jail is not the same as a public figure managing their self business through media and public relations. You understand that yes? You as with a great many posters on this thread and in life have no idea what anyone else is thinking or feeling and are merely attaching labels in order to give your own reality some solidity and order.


Maybe you can link up the DSM studies on sociopaths at the top of industry and politics? Please do. I'd be excited to see it. Maybe you and some others could get the modern equivalent of torches and pitchforks and go to work.

No? Didn't think so.

He wasn't convicted by a court of public opinion, nor a criminal court. He was taken down by a disgruntled cyclist who didn't know how to play the game and some government berk looking to make a career for himself. Not to stop sport doping. Oh, and then the media and sponsors turned because they had to. Keep the good times rolling you know. What remorse is there to show? To whom?

The fact that LA continues to have traction puts the lie to all the moralizing hypocrites who weigh in here and only here to recite the litanies.

On topic: you can’t define the sport; you can’t say how he’s “damaged it” or how repeating his various transgressions (which are largely disconnected from bike racing) advances any understanding unless you can provide some analysis of how they came together.

If you want to know a hand beyond that: ask a question.

Would you consider yourself to have high expectations of others?

 

[macbindle]

Re: Re:

@ 53 Have you considered that his lack of remorse might be entirely rational?

Has Indurain expressed any remorse? Does Indurain feel any remorse? Have you asked him?

lack of remorse is considered a classic sign of sociopathic nature by better minds than ours, so no, it is not rational.
(his cheating is likely to cost him upwards of 70M dollars soon enough)

indurain was not the cheater du jour of this thread.

not one of your better contributions mc?

You haven't understood the point I'm making.

For what should Armstrong feel remorse? Cheating?

Indurain cheated too, but hasn't expressed remorse, and has held on to his 5 victories. In fact I can't think of any remaining Tour victors of the EPO era who have expressed remorse, can you?

That is because expressing remorse for cheating in a sport that required cheating as a condition of entry would be somewhat in bad faith.

Armstrong is (probably) a nasty c***, but there is a lack of hypocrisy about him, and shock horror an interesting sort of honesty.

p.s. by the way, he has expressed remorse for hurting people...which isn't the mark of a sociopath.

p.p.s Aphro alludes to....fuk I can't even remember his name...Mr Reasoned Decision. I can't remember his name...where is he...why hasn't he opined on the Sky fiasco? I'll answer my own question. It's because he doesn't give a toss. He was just another cog in the industry.

 

[Stingray34]

Re: Re:

@ 53 Have you considered that his lack of remorse might be entirely rational?

Has Indurain expressed any remorse? Does Indurain feel any remorse? Have you asked him?

lack of remorse is considered a classic sign of sociopathic nature by better minds than ours, so no, it is not rational.
(his cheating is likely to cost him upwards of 70M dollars soon enough)

indurain was not the cheater du jour of this thread.

not one of your better contributions mc?

You haven't understood the point I'm making.

For what should Armstrong feel remorse? Cheating?

Indurain cheated too, but hasn't expressed remorse, and has held on to his 5 victories. In fact I can't think of any remaining Tour victors of the EPO era who have expressed remorse, can you?

That is because expressing remorse for cheating in a sport that required cheating as a condition of entry would be somewhat in bad faith.

Armstrong is (probably) a nasty c***, but there is a lack of hypocrisy about him, and shock horror an interesting sort of honesty.

p.s. by the way, he has expressed remorse for hurting people...which isn't the mark of a sociopath.

p.p.s Aphro alludes to....fuk I can't even remember his name...Mr Reasoned Decision. I can't remember his name...where is he...why hasn't he opined on the Sky fiasco? I'll answer my own question. It's because he doesn't give a toss. He was just another cog in the industry.

An interesting sort of honesty.

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Re:

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

i think its time you showed what you got, show your cards, or are you sitting on a low hand of 2 + 7?!

I've showed what I have over multiple posts across threads. You said it damaged the sport. How?

Lack of remorse as interviewed by a clinician while in jail is not the same as a public figure managing their self business through media and public relations. You understand that yes? You as with a great many posters on this thread and in life have no idea what anyone else is thinking or feeling and are merely attaching labels in order to give your own reality some solidity and order.


Maybe you can link up the DSM studies on sociopaths at the top of industry and politics? Please do. I'd be excited to see it. Maybe you and some others could get the modern equivalent of torches and pitchforks and go to work.

No? Didn't think so.

He wasn't convicted by a court of public opinion, nor a criminal court. He was taken down by a disgruntled cyclist who didn't know how to play the game and some government berk looking to make a career for himself. Not to stop sport doping. Oh, and then the media and sponsors turned because they had to. Keep the good times rolling you know. What remorse is there to show? To whom?

The fact that LA continues to have traction puts the lie to all the moralizing hypocrites who weigh in here and only here to recite the litanies.

On topic: you can’t define the sport; you can’t say how he’s “damaged it” or how repeating his various transgressions (which are largely disconnected from bike racing) advances any understanding unless you can provide some analysis of how they came together.

If you want to know a hand beyond that: ask a question.

Would you consider yourself to have high expectations of others?

How is that relevant? This isn’t hard stuff.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

@ 53 Have you considered that his lack of remorse might be entirely rational?

Has Indurain expressed any remorse? Does Indurain feel any remorse? Have you asked him?

lack of remorse is considered a classic sign of sociopathic nature by better minds than ours, so no, it is not rational.
(his cheating is likely to cost him upwards of 70M dollars soon enough)

indurain was not the cheater du jour of this thread.

not one of your better contributions mc?

You haven't understood the point I'm making.

For what should Armstrong feel remorse? Cheating?

Indurain cheated too, but hasn't expressed remorse, and has held on to his 5 victories. In fact I can't think of any remaining Tour victors of the EPO era who have expressed remorse, can you?

That is because expressing remorse for cheating in a sport that required cheating as a condition of entry would be somewhat in bad faith.

Armstrong is (probably) a nasty c***, but there is a lack of hypocrisy about him, and shock horror an interesting sort of honesty.

p.s. by the way, he has expressed remorse for hurting people...which isn't the mark of a sociopath.

p.p.s Aphro alludes to....fuk I can't even remember his name...Mr Reasoned Decision. I can't remember his name...where is he...why hasn't he opined on the Sky fiasco? I'll answer my own question. It's because he doesn't give a toss. He was just another cog in the industry.

One of the most 'balanced' and on the mark points I've seen on this thread.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

i think its time you showed what you got, show your cards, or are you sitting on a low hand of 2 + 7?!

I've showed what I have over multiple posts across threads. You said it damaged the sport. How?

Lack of remorse as interviewed by a clinician while in jail is not the same as a public figure managing their self business through media and public relations. You understand that yes? You as with a great many posters on this thread and in life have no idea what anyone else is thinking or feeling and are merely attaching labels in order to give your own reality some solidity and order.


Maybe you can link up the DSM studies on sociopaths at the top of industry and politics? Please do. I'd be excited to see it. Maybe you and some others could get the modern equivalent of torches and pitchforks and go to work.

No? Didn't think so.

He wasn't convicted by a court of public opinion, nor a criminal court. He was taken down by a disgruntled cyclist who didn't know how to play the game and some government berk looking to make a career for himself. Not to stop sport doping. Oh, and then the media and sponsors turned because they had to. Keep the good times rolling you know. What remorse is there to show? To whom?

The fact that LA continues to have traction puts the lie to all the moralizing hypocrites who weigh in here and only here to recite the litanies.

On topic: you can’t define the sport; you can’t say how he’s “damaged it” or how repeating his various transgressions (which are largely disconnected from bike racing) advances any understanding unless you can provide some analysis of how they came together.

If you want to know a hand beyond that: ask a question.

Would you consider yourself to have high expectations of others?

Good one, Stingray.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Yawn. I’m not your bud. Everyone knows all that. You repeating it in the thread for the umpteenth time does nothing.

I’ll ask again: how has that damaged the sport? Show it.

DSM is management speak; not unrelated to the US prison industry. Similarly unimpressive. What else you got? Meds for profit?

i think its time you showed what you got, show your cards, or are you sitting on a low hand of 2 + 7?!

I've showed what I have over multiple posts across threads. You said it damaged the sport. How?

Lack of remorse as interviewed by a clinician while in jail is not the same as a public figure managing their self business through media and public relations. You understand that yes? You as with a great many posters on this thread and in life have no idea what anyone else is thinking or feeling and are merely attaching labels in order to give your own reality some solidity and order.


Maybe you can link up the DSM studies on sociopaths at the top of industry and politics? Please do. I'd be excited to see it. Maybe you and some others could get the modern equivalent of torches and pitchforks and go to work.

No? Didn't think so.

He wasn't convicted by a court of public opinion, nor a criminal court. He was taken down by a disgruntled cyclist who didn't know how to play the game and some government berk looking to make a career for himself. Not to stop sport doping. Oh, and then the media and sponsors turned because they had to. Keep the good times rolling you know. What remorse is there to show? To whom?

The fact that LA continues to have traction puts the lie to all the moralizing hypocrites who weigh in here and only here to recite the litanies.

On topic: you can’t define the sport; you can’t say how he’s “damaged it” or how repeating his various transgressions (which are largely disconnected from bike racing) advances any understanding unless you can provide some analysis of how they came together.

If you want to know a hand beyond that: ask a question.

Salient ... a la ammonium carbonate. :geek:

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

Right. So he should open every podcast groveling to you and your great aunt for forgiveness? Damage to cycling? Please demonstrate.

i dont want his apology! he does own the sport an apology though. i am simply pointing out that he has all the hallmark traits of a remorseless sociopath, * see below. i dont see you propose a counter argument with supporting facts?;
as to damage to the sport? well take your pick of these then bud;
- running 'the most sophisticated doping program in cycling'
- taking blood doping to a new level and thereby forcing others to do likewise, leading to neopros and younger riders also taking the EPO / blood doping path, leading to the deaths of younger riders
- forcing clean riders from the sport, cf cristoph basson
- relentless intimidation of team mates, team mates partners, rivals, media and anyone else who dared to questions his 'dreams',; cf walsh, kimmage, et al
- he frequently threatened legal action on media and other riders who dared raise the dope word in relation to him
- profiting to the tune of tens of millions from victories illegally obtained through said cheating
- using a cancer charity to keep the dollars rolling in his own accoun through endorsements (in fairness to him, he helped raise millions for this charity also)
- constantly denying the doping program he was using, until that cringeworthy interview on , of all places, oprah
- holding himself out as a survivor and a cause for hope for millions of people, knowing he was doping to win.

i repeat, he recently said he would do it all again; what does that tell you about him as a man?


*definition of a sociopath
the Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest.
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure.
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead.
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults.
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others.
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations.
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another."
source; the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) is the authority on mental illnesses published by the American Psychiatric Association.

Wowza!

Better save a bit of energy, man. Long way to Paris. Especially since ... well your name says it all. A lot of us dudes ... we be happy to be pushin a 50*34/12 ... on the descents! :surprised:

No matter ... it's all been said ... and, now ... it all means feck all.

The blockbuster books, the movies, the scathing articles, the blogs, the bans, the Clinic 12, Clinic 12's CEO. Where they be now?

Gatherin dust, brutha.

SOB Lance weathered them all. Say what you want about Lance, and you have ... profusely ... he be one tough MF.

He's still a got a battle with the Hit Man Hero and the Feds ... he may get hit hard ... and the Clinic will 'do the wave' while they cheer. But ...methinks ... he'll even survive that.

Go back to what MI said a few posts back. Even in seeing that Lance was a nasty piece of work on some levels at one time ... MI recognizies the energy, knowledge and time that LA could offer to PC. "Stages" (both Podcast and Outside Online's blog) ... last TDF ... was an excellent start.

So ... it is possible ... as several posters on here share ... to rebuke LA for his indiscretions ... but put those indiscretions into 'pragmatic' perspective.

Of course ... you have the right to your own cultivated rage and apparent hatred ... but there's a cost to that, IMHO.

The transient pleasure of your schadenfruede is the weakest way to gain strength. It'll burn you good.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re: Re:

...For what should Armstrong feel remorse?...

Ask and ye shall receive.

For being il capo dei tutti capi of an international crime syndicate.

AFAIK Indurain is not suspected of perjury, subourning perjury, money laundering, defrauding the US Government of $32 million, conspiracy to commit all the former, witness tampering, bribing sport officials, extorting silence from his minions by means of frivolous libel suits, or siphoning off potentially hundreds of millions of dollars that might otherwise have gone to legitimate anti-cancer charities.

The same cannot be said of Pharmstrong.

 

[Alpe73]

Re: Re:

...For what should Armstrong feel remorse?...

Ask and ye shall receive.

For being il capo dei tutti capi of an international crime syndicate.

AFAIK Indurain is not suspected of perjury, subourning perjury, money laundering, defrauding the US Government of $32 million, conspiracy to commit all the former, witness tampering, bribing sport officials, extorting silence from his minions by means of frivolous libel suits, or siphoning off potentially hundreds of millions of dollars that might otherwise have gone to legitimate anti-cancer charities.

The same cannot be said of Pharmstrong.

Could you please support this profound claim with some legitimate evidence? Thanks in advance.

 

[aphronesis]

Re: Re:

...For what should Armstrong feel remorse?...

Ask and ye shall receive.

For being il capo dei tutti capi of an international crime syndicate.

AFAIK Indurain is not suspected of perjury, subourning perjury, money laundering, defrauding the US Government of $32 million, conspiracy to commit all the former, witness tampering, bribing sport officials, extorting silence from his minions by means of frivolous libel suits, or siphoning off potentially hundreds of millions of dollars that might otherwise have gone to legitimate anti-cancer charities.

The same cannot be said of Pharmstrong.

Could you please support this profound claim with some legitimate evidence? Thanks in advance.

Hahahahaha! Good one. Were you born after ~2006?



John Swanson

Oh so there’s a study out there of donors who gave hundreds of millions of dollars that they would have given to legitimate research and not Livestrong had they known? Cool beans got a link?

And man that money laundering, still can’t believe there aren’t charges coming down on that.

The libel suits were reversed and paid. This is the contemporary world not the middle ages; you pay in court. You’re dun. No need to walk around in a hairshirt while the pious throw rotten produce. Remorse is for parole boards.

 

[poupou]

No limit for Armstrong, everything was good to exploit to hide his sins:

I have never seen Indurain wearing a such tee-shirt.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Re: Re:

Could you please support this profound claim with some legitimate evidence? Thanks in advance.

Sure. I suspect him, therefore he is suspected. That's first-hand evidence. Is that legitimate enough?

In fact if you'll cruise all the many of thousands of posts in the three (so far) threads of Parmstrong posts, you'll see I am not alone in any of those suspicions.