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Re: Re:
I have been reading this forum for years - this is the most insightful post I have seen post the reasoned decision
aphronesis said:
I have been reading this forum for years - this is the most insightful post I have seen post the reasoned decision
Re: Re:
hypocrisy
NOUN
the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour forever!”
(for 53x11) Never argue with an idiot. He’ll drag you down to his level and then beat you on experience.
Only a cretin could argue that Armstrong did not make his whole lifestyle and extensive wealth on hypocrisy and the ability of some people to believe white is black and vice versa. The majority of the victims, and there are thousands of them, unlike Armstrong, still don’t have a voice.
I don’t know – I could suggest a reason, but it would be speculation - why Alpe73, Macbindle and Aphronesis excuse the actions of Lance like they do and in so doing, offer succour to others (yes, I am being generous) who act similarly, or justify lack of criticism of others who behave similarly. If other posters then validate such incontinent logic paths, with praise, well so what.
Albert – Einstien - Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
"Probably" - awesome, just awesome and in the same sentence, "an interesting sort of honesty". And to suggest Floyd didn't know how the system worked - he ran the supreme scam - the Floyd fairness fund. Floyd knew exactly how it worked. It was Lance who got it wrong, the greed driving him meant that enough was never enough.
Alpe73 said:
hypocrisy
NOUN
the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.
“Finally, the last thing I’ll say to the people who don’t believe in cycling, the cynics and the sceptics: I'm sorry for you. I’m sorry that you can’t dream big. I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is one hell of a race. This is a great sporting event and you should stand around and believe it. You should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets — this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. So Vive le Tour forever!”
(for 53x11) Never argue with an idiot. He’ll drag you down to his level and then beat you on experience.
Only a cretin could argue that Armstrong did not make his whole lifestyle and extensive wealth on hypocrisy and the ability of some people to believe white is black and vice versa. The majority of the victims, and there are thousands of them, unlike Armstrong, still don’t have a voice.
I don’t know – I could suggest a reason, but it would be speculation - why Alpe73, Macbindle and Aphronesis excuse the actions of Lance like they do and in so doing, offer succour to others (yes, I am being generous) who act similarly, or justify lack of criticism of others who behave similarly. If other posters then validate such incontinent logic paths, with praise, well so what.
Albert – Einstien - Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
"Probably" - awesome, just awesome and in the same sentence, "an interesting sort of honesty". And to suggest Floyd didn't know how the system worked - he ran the supreme scam - the Floyd fairness fund. Floyd knew exactly how it worked. It was Lance who got it wrong, the greed driving him meant that enough was never enough.
Thankyou for accusing me of being a cretin and an idiot.
But you could have saved all that angry, hysterical, frothy-mouthed posting if you'd paid a little more attention to the thread title...
It says 'post-confession'.
At least I can read
But you could have saved all that angry, hysterical, frothy-mouthed posting if you'd paid a little more attention to the thread title...
It says 'post-confession'.
At least I can read
Re:
You have had all the post confession evidence presented to you and you have ignored it.macbindle said:
Look, everyone has been perfectly polite and respectful of each other's opinions until you showed up throwing around insults calling me a cretin and an idiot.
I'm sure that in your own self-righteous mind you are the guardian of propriety but frankly who cares. Find someone else to argue with and make you feel better about yourself.
I ain't interested.
Bye.
I'm sure that in your own self-righteous mind you are the guardian of propriety but frankly who cares. Find someone else to argue with and make you feel better about yourself.
I ain't interested.
Bye.
Re:
Read my post.
Writes the person who edited his post to add "But you could have saved all that angry, hysterical, frothy-mouthed posting"macbindle said:
Read my post.
Re: Re:
Good stuff, Freddie. Ya never have to doubt true north with you.
Freddythefrog said:
Good stuff, Freddie. Ya never have to doubt true north with you.
Re: Re:
You should find a post of mine that excuses any if Armstrong’s hostile or abusive behavior.
Thousands of victims? Maybe you can link a few hundred. Black is white? Who said that? Demonstrate it in a macro context. Save the dictionary for the remedial students.
Freddythefrog said:
You should find a post of mine that excuses any if Armstrong’s hostile or abusive behavior.
Thousands of victims? Maybe you can link a few hundred. Black is white? Who said that? Demonstrate it in a macro context. Save the dictionary for the remedial students.
Re: Re:
Have you ever competed at a high level in the sport ? Did you complete clean ? If you had experience of the pathways to elite cycling, its management and governance you would have the answers to the most relevant element that motivates your questions.
aphronesis said:
Have you ever competed at a high level in the sport ? Did you complete clean ? If you had experience of the pathways to elite cycling, its management and governance you would have the answers to the most relevant element that motivates your questions.
Re: Re:
Just pointing out ... well yeah ... counting ... that this is the second time in less than a week that you've challenged another poster with a cognitive climb that is bound to put him/her deep into the red zone. Ain't enough Lego Proletariat in his hood to deliver the requisitioned denunciations.
aphronesis said:
Just pointing out ... well yeah ... counting ... that this is the second time in less than a week that you've challenged another poster with a cognitive climb that is bound to put him/her deep into the red zone. Ain't enough Lego Proletariat in his hood to deliver the requisitioned denunciations.
Re: Re:
I competed in high school and college and have cycled and run throughout my life. I don’t even take aspirin; it’s a personal thing, so no pro.
Don’t act dumb please; if you’re going to invoke me and assign intentions to my posts then back up your claims with evidence or leave me out of it the next time you want to take to the wailing wall for the sewing circle.
Hate the whole game baby, can’t single out the players.
Freddythefrog said:
I competed in high school and college and have cycled and run throughout my life. I don’t even take aspirin; it’s a personal thing, so no pro.
Don’t act dumb please; if you’re going to invoke me and assign intentions to my posts then back up your claims with evidence or leave me out of it the next time you want to take to the wailing wall for the sewing circle.
Hate the whole game baby, can’t single out the players.
Re: Re:
To the highlighted quote....it's interesting to read this again in the light and context of what we now know.
'Miracles'...drugs or no drugs, not only surviving the stage of brain cancer that LA had, but going on to win the TDF 7 times. Yep, that's verging on the miraculous.
'One hell of a race'.....yep, drugs or no drugs, the TDF sure is one hell of a race
'You should believe in these athletes'.....yep, drugs or no drugs, any person who's good enough to complete, let alone be competitive in the TDF is one hell of an Athlete.
'I'll be a fan of the TDF for as long as i live'.....yep, me too, drugs or no drugs.
'There are no secrets'....ok, maybe we got him there, but then again was it really such a secret!?
'this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it'....yep, it sure does, drugs or no drugs. Anybody who thinks that drugs can replace hard work really doesn't know much about the physical requirements for cycling at the highest levels.
So, thinking about it...which part of Lance's famous victory speech do we not agree with?
Freddythefrog said:
To the highlighted quote....it's interesting to read this again in the light and context of what we now know.
'Miracles'...drugs or no drugs, not only surviving the stage of brain cancer that LA had, but going on to win the TDF 7 times. Yep, that's verging on the miraculous.
'One hell of a race'.....yep, drugs or no drugs, the TDF sure is one hell of a race
'You should believe in these athletes'.....yep, drugs or no drugs, any person who's good enough to complete, let alone be competitive in the TDF is one hell of an Athlete.
'I'll be a fan of the TDF for as long as i live'.....yep, me too, drugs or no drugs.
'There are no secrets'....ok, maybe we got him there, but then again was it really such a secret!?
'this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it'....yep, it sure does, drugs or no drugs. Anybody who thinks that drugs can replace hard work really doesn't know much about the physical requirements for cycling at the highest levels.
So, thinking about it...which part of Lance's famous victory speech do we not agree with?
Re: Re:
Before "assign(ing) intentions to my posts" - did you read them ?
I can't argue with you if you can't conceptualise the problem - which is why you don't see a problem with the case you argue. I'll leave you with your simplistic "Hate the whole game baby, can’t single out the players". That is an accurate statement of where you are.
Lance is going to remain wealthy, maybe not as wealthy as he would like and maybe Floyd will get a share of his wealth sometime soon. Lance's current stance of "I only did what they all did" is his get out of jail card, but the evidence is, that is way too simplistic, lots of people did not do what he did and if you have never met any people like that, well I feel sorry for you. Perhaps I only met them at the "sewing circle"
- but perhaps I didn't..............
aphronesis said:
Before "assign(ing) intentions to my posts" - did you read them ?
I can't argue with you if you can't conceptualise the problem - which is why you don't see a problem with the case you argue. I'll leave you with your simplistic "Hate the whole game baby, can’t single out the players". That is an accurate statement of where you are.
Lance is going to remain wealthy, maybe not as wealthy as he would like and maybe Floyd will get a share of his wealth sometime soon. Lance's current stance of "I only did what they all did" is his get out of jail card, but the evidence is, that is way too simplistic, lots of people did not do what he did and if you have never met any people like that, well I feel sorry for you. Perhaps I only met them at the "sewing circle"
- but perhaps I didn't..............
Re: Re:
Yes, I read them. I know what I meant. It’s not at all clear that you do.
If you don’t want trite cliches, don’t be gnomic and cryptic....
(oooh, that was heavy.)
Did I say everyone did it? No. Say I hadn’t met anyone who didn’t no. Did I doubt or question your experience? Not at all. (Weirdly some people remember what others post here.) Don’t feel sorry for me. You don’t know my life and I haven’t impugned the undoubted “richness” of yours.
Oh, by the way, what’s wealth got to do with this little sermon?
You really don’t know what I’ve said or am saying and yet you want to argue with it without coming out and making a sustained point of your own.
Try it. Don’t assign histories, thoughts or lack of conceptualizations not in evidence. Don’t be coy. Don’t ask me to inhabit imaginary positions or require me to have real life experience to be sble to, don’t google definitions and don’t play with punctuation, just lay out your argument and question what you think mine might be rather than assign it fictive motives and positions.
Freddythefrog said:
Yes, I read them. I know what I meant. It’s not at all clear that you do.
If you don’t want trite cliches, don’t be gnomic and cryptic....
(oooh, that was heavy.)
Did I say everyone did it? No. Say I hadn’t met anyone who didn’t no. Did I doubt or question your experience? Not at all. (Weirdly some people remember what others post here.) Don’t feel sorry for me. You don’t know my life and I haven’t impugned the undoubted “richness” of yours.
Oh, by the way, what’s wealth got to do with this little sermon?
You really don’t know what I’ve said or am saying and yet you want to argue with it without coming out and making a sustained point of your own.
Try it. Don’t assign histories, thoughts or lack of conceptualizations not in evidence. Don’t be coy. Don’t ask me to inhabit imaginary positions or require me to have real life experience to be sble to, don’t google definitions and don’t play with punctuation, just lay out your argument and question what you think mine might be rather than assign it fictive motives and positions.
Re: Re:
Well your responses would be evidence that you didn't. Can't help you with that.
Back to the sewing circle....... now who was that expert talking about "fictive motives and positions" ??????
aphronesis said:
Well your responses would be evidence that you didn't. Can't help you with that.
Back to the sewing circle....... now who was that expert talking about "fictive motives and positions" ??????
No expert. You claimed I was arguing something and yet can’t show it. I’m simply asking you, the expert summarizer of others’ posts to validate your claims.
It’s a metaphor. Made clear by its absurdity. Maybe take a whirl through figures of speech.
So wealth? How’s that figure in all of this? Please do enlighten me. You did type that right? Weren’t in a fugue state? Tapped out with your finger on the question key?
It’s a metaphor. Made clear by its absurdity. Maybe take a whirl through figures of speech.
So wealth? How’s that figure in all of this? Please do enlighten me. You did type that right? Weren’t in a fugue state? Tapped out with your finger on the question key?
Who knows? It’s like alchemy and mysticism right. Where do you draw the line at others’ reality and its truth claims?
One thing I find interesting with Armstrong is he's still close with some of the teammates that testified against him (Hincapie and Vande Velde). I would suggest that is behaviour that isn't sociopathic.
Re:
That said, I think the whole LA-as-a-sociopath thing is nonsense, it's one of the cheapest shots Walsh - and others - took at turning LA into a monster. If we take the tools used to call LA a sociopath, we could probably say the exact same of Walsh himself.
There's offering evidence and there's answering questions. Did either CVV or Hincapie actually offer anything? I know the latter's book almost goes out of its way to not to talk about the doping of the LA years - either in general or specifically within Motorola/USPS/Disco - and, though I recall nothing of it at this stage, I noted when reviewing the book that he spent a lot of effort justifying why he testified (all I recall is that he had no choice in the matter).Parker said:
That said, I think the whole LA-as-a-sociopath thing is nonsense, it's one of the cheapest shots Walsh - and others - took at turning LA into a monster. If we take the tools used to call LA a sociopath, we could probably say the exact same of Walsh himself.
@alpe,
Yeah it’s a thing. Involuted prose and lofty quotations afflict some college and grad students too when they hit the deep end of the pool.
Re. the above, no reason not to call him a bully in the past; but hang out with some pre 2008 bankers and that was par for the course. As to his wealth: oh, ill gotten from Michelob drinkers, Nike shoppers and US taxpayers. Bummer, sounds like the lifestyle of the Iraq invasion took a hit. I feel the victimization.
Yeah it’s a thing. Involuted prose and lofty quotations afflict some college and grad students too when they hit the deep end of the pool.
Re. the above, no reason not to call him a bully in the past; but hang out with some pre 2008 bankers and that was par for the course. As to his wealth: oh, ill gotten from Michelob drinkers, Nike shoppers and US taxpayers. Bummer, sounds like the lifestyle of the Iraq invasion took a hit. I feel the victimization.
Re: Re:
Yeah, Walsh calling him the worst kind of human while giving Tom Humphries a character reference was a bit rich.fmk_RoI said:
Re:
At some point Pharmstrong likely was going to have to grant absolution to some of the turncoats, else he risked finding himself standing stark staring alone. He picked from among the least worst among them, which were those who were coerced into testifying. Pharmstrong already used his Twitter bully pulpit to complain that former teammates were being given immunity in return for their testimony. An offer of immunity must needs be backed up with threats of criminal prosecution, else the carrot they offer has no accompanying stick.
They all know they were equally guilty of most of the same transgressions. And there but for the grace of God go I. It stands to reason many of them have more than a twinge of survivor's guilt because they haven't shared the far harsher fate of their former Master and Commander, in no small part because they turned rat to save their own keesters. And as manipulative a sociopath as Pharmstrong has shown himself to be, I think it stands to equal reason that he will twist that fact to his best advantage. The penance he demands to grant their absolution will not be trifling.
The upshot is those poor fools are thinking he's done them a favour.
What, you're suggesting that sociopaths somehow lack the ability to be pragmatic? To the contrary, there is a high correlation between sociopathy and utilitarianism, and utilitarianism is inherently pragmatic.Parker said:
At some point Pharmstrong likely was going to have to grant absolution to some of the turncoats, else he risked finding himself standing stark staring alone. He picked from among the least worst among them, which were those who were coerced into testifying. Pharmstrong already used his Twitter bully pulpit to complain that former teammates were being given immunity in return for their testimony. An offer of immunity must needs be backed up with threats of criminal prosecution, else the carrot they offer has no accompanying stick.
They all know they were equally guilty of most of the same transgressions. And there but for the grace of God go I. It stands to reason many of them have more than a twinge of survivor's guilt because they haven't shared the far harsher fate of their former Master and Commander, in no small part because they turned rat to save their own keesters. And as manipulative a sociopath as Pharmstrong has shown himself to be, I think it stands to equal reason that he will twist that fact to his best advantage. The penance he demands to grant their absolution will not be trifling.
The upshot is those poor fools are thinking he's done them a favour.
Re: Re:
Fixed.
Really? Well, go to it! I’m very interested to see how this is accomplished.
aphronesis said:
Fixed.
fmk_RoI said:
Really? Well, go to it! I’m very interested to see how this is accomplished.
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