Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Alpe73]

USADA did close to 2,000 tests last year. While guys like Horner were clearly target tested cycling is not their only job. I think it is great that Salazar's runners are also targeted. Rupp was tested 19 times in 6 months. Swimmers like Phelps, Franklin, Lochte....all target tested.

Ryder's affidavit does not exist. I share your frustration on Levi, George, etc. I don't believe Levi stopped doping in 2008 or George in 2006. These guys did pretty much everything lance did and walked with little consequence.

Good points.

The positive part of deals like this is they break the Omerta. They expose the Doctors and DS' that run these programs. The result is guys like Cassoni and Santuccione are pushed from the sport. Lienders is facing jail time. Teams administered programs are rare because the risk is too high.

Good points.

USADA did not give them a special deal as the WADA code clearly spells out 6 month. Lance could have got the same deal.

So in WADA's and USADA's view, Armstrong's 'involvement in doping', per se, was no worse than t'others. Six months is the going rate for having the most sophisticated doping program 'that'/that sport has ever seen?

The religious angle is just that, an angle. Lance pushes it as it paints Travis as motivated by lance being an atheist. Reporters like it as they think it adds context to a story. In the end it is nothing more then a talking point.

Other key protagonists have played, publicized, embellished ... that angle as part of the take down, and you know it.

 

[Benotti69]

...............


The positive part of deals like this is they break the Omerta. They expose the Doctors and DS' that run these programs. The result is guys like Cassoni and Santuccione are pushed from the sport. Lienders is facing jail time. Teams administered programs are rare because the risk is too high.

Yeah, like Ferrari probably has never been busier. Ibauguren is in trouble.....

These Docs getting busted raises their profile and no doubt their rates.

.
After a steady stream of organized doping programs (Festina, USPS, Oil for Drugs, Puerto, Humaplasma, Mantova, etc) what have we seen in the last 3-4 years? Riders willingness to flip, coupled with enforcement, is part of the reason.

Festina stopped doping?

Puerto really made those Spanish think doping is too risky!

The riders who flipped, were because of Feds involvement and fear of jail time.

Mantova has had little effect to date and if the Italians perform as they have done in the past it will have little effect.

The sport has not changed in its use of PEDs. We can see this in current riders performances. Things move a lot faster than underfunded ADAs. Federations are not interested in stopping doping.

Armstrong was too stupid to realise that not co-orperating with USADA was a mistake. But I glad he made that mistake.

 

[Race Radio]

Yeah, like Ferrari probably has never been busier. Ibauguren is in trouble.....

These Docs getting busted raises their profile and no doubt their rates.



Festina stopped doping?

Puerto really made those Spanish think doping is too risky!

The riders who flipped, were because of Feds involvement and fear of jail time.

Mantova has had little effect to date and if the Italians perform as they have done in the past it will have little effect.

The sport has not changed in its use of PEDs. We can see this in current riders performances. Things move a lot faster than underfunded ADAs. Federations are not interested in stopping doping.

Armstrong was too stupid to realise that not co-orperating with USADA was a mistake. But I glad he made that mistake.

Ferrari likes to pretend he is still in business. At this point he is just trying to stay out of prison.

Puerto may look like a failure but in the end it was a huge catalyst for change. Spain passed laws that criminalized PED's. Since this law there have been several huge doping networks that have been busted.

Spain's anti doping agency, AEPSAD, was exposed as a joke. Many said it was one of the reasons they lost the 2020 Olympics. They went through multiple heads in the space of a year. Finally Enrique Gómez Bastida, the GC who ran the Puerto criminal investigation, is now in charge. That is a huge change.

The sport has changed its use of PED's dramatically in the last 10 years, largely due to WADA and changes in the criminalization of doping.

 

[Race Radio]

So in WADA's and USADA's view, Armstrong's 'involvement in doping', per se, was no worse than t'others. Six months is the going rate for having the most sophisticated doping program 'that'/that sport has ever seen?

I can't speak for WADA. Armstrong was certainly more of an organizer and pusher but in terms of participation there is not much difference between him and Levi.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

It sucks, but those are the rules. USADA did not give them a special deal as the WADA code clearly spells out 6 month. Lance could have got the same deal.

Doesn't the WADA code state that the maximum reduction one can get for cooperation is 3/4 of the penalty for the offence for which one is busted? i.e. there was nothing to compel USADA to give this maximum reduction. One could argue that George et al didn't deserve much credit for "fessing up" as it took the knock on the door by armed agents to get them talking.

Re Lance getting the same deal, are you suggesting that he could have got 6 months if he'd grassed himself up? That sounds about as likely as Chris Horner's Vuelta! Presumably any offer Travis made was in the expectation that Lance wouldn't grass himself up (however unwise continuing the charade would be.)

 

[DirtyWorks]

and let's be real, how is Tygart 'on a mission to end cheating'?
I don't see him chasing the US members of the propeloton?

This is a misunderstanding of what a NADO like USADA can actually do.
Tygart can't "chase" with no budget and almost no authority. This is by design.

A NADO generally acts at the direction of an anti-doping authority. For example, an event organizer or USA Cycling requests testing at an event.

The anti-doping authority performs tests based on the budget they are given to run tests. It's not clear to me if a race organizer can specify the tests.

If a sample returns a positive, it goes back to the anti-doping authority who has the exclusive authority to start a sanction or not. An athlete can return a clear positive and never be sanctioned. This has happened many times now.

If a sanction is started, the NADO applies a sanction based on the rules of the sport.


Yes, Wonderboy's case was different. USADA took the opportunity given in the rules and while not a perfect conclusion, a pretty good outcome.

 

[Race Radio]

Doesn't the WADA code state that the maximum reduction one can get for cooperation is 3/4 of the penalty for the offence for which one is busted? i.e. there was nothing to compel USADA to give this maximum reduction. One could argue that George et al didn't deserve much credit for "fessing up" as it took the knock on the door by armed agents to get them talking.

Re Lance getting the same deal, are you suggesting that he could have got 6 months if he'd grassed himself up? That sounds about as likely as Chris Horner's Vuelta! Presumably any offer Travis made was in the expectation that Lance wouldn't grass himself up (however unwise continuing the charade would be.)

Yes, he could have got 6 months and only 2 years stripped. If the rider cooperates they get a deal. If they don't then they get nailed for everything possible. The SOL is tolled and they are hit with trafficking charges. This means lifetime.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Doesn't the WADA code state that the maximum reduction one can get for cooperation is 3/4 of the penalty for the offence for which one is busted? i.e. there was nothing to compel USADA to give this maximum reduction. One could argue that George et al didn't deserve much credit for "fessing up" as it took the knock on the door by armed agents to get them talking.

I agree more athletes should have gotten worse sanctions, but, that's missing the point entirely.

In all of this, the UCI and USA Cycling, the actual key players in the scheme were barely implicated. Even Wonderboy is a minor player. If the National and International federation operated with some integrity, a fraud like Wonderboy would never have left the U.S. with a 9:1 T/E ratio and a history of doping with Carmichael and Wenzel.

What USADA managed to accomplish is far above what the IOC ever intended the system to do. I'm perfectly willing to let George and Levi go with their light sanctions because of what USADA did accomplish anyway.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not disagreeing entirely. You asked a question too and this is my answer.

 

[D-Queued]

If Macur would have phrased it like that I would indeed have been perfectly ok with it.
The way it reads now is as if it is her opinion that atheists form part of 'what is wrong with society'.
It could be about the way the article is written, so I have to be careful here.
But if she did say it like that, I think it's a faux-pas. You can't say that kind of stuff as a New York Times journalist.

Agreed.

It could have been phrased like that. It could have been an oversight that it wasn't. It could have been too much familiarity with the subject, and not enough care to consider such statements in a stand-alone context. And, it could have been an editor that chopped it up.

That is the benefit of the doubt.

She is a professional, though, so your points are well taken.

It does seem very odd that she would be the one who would say something like that, though.

Dave.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Agreed.

It could have been phrased like that. It could have been an oversight that it wasn't. It could have been too much familiarity with the subject, and not enough care to consider such statements in a stand-alone context. And, it could have been an editor that chopped it up.

That is the benefit of the doubt.

She is a professional, though, so your points are well taken.

It does seem very odd that she would be the one who would say something like that, though.

Dave.

The editor must **love** her to let that one pass. Or, the editor left it in to try to get a few more eyeballs.

 

[D-Queued]

The editor must **love** her to let that one pass. Or, the editor left it in to try to get a few more eyeballs.

Hopefully the editor actually cares.

My fear would be that we are back to where we were with cycling and doping in cycling in that the editor may not have cared at all.

Dave.

 

[86TDFWinner]

The sport has changed its use of PED's dramatically in the last 10 years, largely due to WADA and changes in the criminalization of doping.

I don't know.......wasn't Froome "excused"*cough* for some shoddy TUE not too long ago, and bragged beforehand about how easy the testing is/was to manipulate?

Plus, Contador was allowed to return(something that should not have happened IMO).

One could argue that George et al didn't deserve much credit for "fessing up" as it took the knock on the door by armed agents to get them talking.

Yet, people continue making Georgie out to be like some sort of hero, and i don't understand why. He's as dirty as Wonderboy, yet somehow still beloved by some. Levi and others get villified, and Georgie walks away, pretty much unscathed.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yes, he could have got 6 months and only 2 years stripped. If the rider cooperates they get a deal. If they don't then they get nailed for everything possible. The SOL is tolled and they are hit with trafficking charges. This means lifetime.

Thanks. My reading of the code is that if your offence warrants a lifetime ban then cooperation can reduce it to 8 years. (This seems reasonable; 8 years is a sensible definition of a quarter of forever in sporting terms.)

You seem to be saying that cooperation by Lance would have reduced his offence from one with a maximum life ban to one with a maximum 2 year ban which is then reduced by 3/4 for cooperation. I'm not disputing Lance's life ban, but he's either committed the offence that gives rise to such a(n unreduced) ban or he hasn't. The cooperation element "after the fact" appears to only apply to the maximum ban for the offences actually committed.

So for Lance to get only a 6 month ban, Travis would have had to not act on the evidence of the much more serious offence that justified the life ban. Surely a man of Travis's integrity could only have gone down to an 8 year ban?

Any comment on my interpretation of the WADA code that reducing from 2 years to 6 months is the maximum generosity that USADA could grant to George et al, not a mandatory level of generosity for cooperation? Are there any other cases where a two year ban has been reduced to 6 months for cooperation, at gunpoint or otherwise?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

I agree more athletes should have gotten worse sanctions, but, that's missing the point entirely.

That was my point entirely!

I agree there are much broader elements to the whole Lance farago, but I wasn't addressing those.

 

[Benotti69]

Ferrari likes to pretend he is still in business. At this point he is just trying to stay out of prison.

Ferrari will have no problem staying out of prison. I am sure the Italians dont want to be stripped of loads of gold medals and WCs for their athletes.

.
Puerto may look like a failure but in the end it was a huge catalyst for change. Spain passed laws that criminalized PED's. Since this law there have been several huge doping networks that have been busted.

Who are the athletes busted in the huge doping networks? Contador, Piti and Purito all look to be in fine fettle.

.
Spain's anti doping agency, AEPSAD, was exposed as a joke. Many said it was one of the reasons they lost the 2020 Olympics. They went through multiple heads in the space of a year. Finally Enrique Gómez Bastida, the GC who ran the Puerto criminal investigation, is now in charge. That is a huge change.

I bet the reason Spain lost 2020 olympics is financial. They cannot afford it.

.
The sport has changed its use of PED's dramatically in the last 10 years, largely due to WADA and changes in the criminalization of doping.

Yes it has. Skinny riders climbing like 10 years ago and TTing like 10 years ago show that the PEDs have changed. But Contador was ripping up GTs in 2007 and he is still ripping up GTs.

Have not seen many athletes going to jail and the criminalisation has not stopped many, Piti, Bertie et al all seem to be doing the same things as before.

Doping constantly stays head of ADAs as tests slowly play catch up. But all the enablers and people who make good money from doping are not going to roll over because doping is bad PR......they never did.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

John Cleese sums up the situation (with video):

“The problem with people like this is that they are so stupid that they have no idea how stupid they are. You see, if you’re very, very stupid, how can you possibly realize that you’re very, very stupid, you’d have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you are.”

There's actually a name for that. It's called Dunning-Kruger effect.

And here was me thinking Graham Chapman was the medical doctor of that lot.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

There's actually a name for that. It's called Dunning-Kruger effect.

And here was me thinking Graham Chapman was the medical doctor of that lot.

Now I can't stop laughing.....

 

[gooner]

Armstrong now seeks production of witness-interview memos that federal prosecutors prepared for the criminal investigation.
*****The feds mistakenly produced 29 of the memos to Armstrong during discovery, but they argued that 26 additional witness statement memos are protected by attorney work-product privilege and attorney-client privilege.
*****Armstrong countered that, since the memos contained "substantially verbatim" witness statements, they are not protected by any attorney privilege.
*****Cooper found Tuesday that Armstrong should see the memos in the interest of fairness.
*****"The civil lawyers litigating this qui tam action have received a substantial advantage from having access to the fruits of the prior criminal investigation.Particularly in qui tam actions, fairness dictates that both sides have equal access to relevant witness statements developed by law enforcement in prior or parallel criminal investigations," the 16-page ruling states.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/02/72079.htm

 

[gooner]

Link to the 16 page ruling.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/02/armstrong.pdf

 

[DirtyWorks]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/02/72079.htm

I read it as one tactic to shut down the case by somehow claiming USPS knew and that triggers some SOL as being denied by the judge.

Someone who is a lawyer needs to roughly explain if there is something meaningful in giving
wonderboy's side the docs.

 

[RownhamHill]

I read it as one tactic to shut down the case by somehow claiming USPS knew and that triggers some SOL as being denied by the judge.

Someone who is a lawyer needs to roughly explain if there is something meaningful in giving
wonderboy's side the docs.

Doesn't it depend almost entirely on what the documents actually say?

By the way, reading through that motion reminded me about Bruyneel getting questioned by the Feds at the Tour of California - I seem to remember at the time it was unclear exactly which investigation he was being questioned as part of: was that ever resolved?

 

[Race Radio]

Doesn't it depend almost entirely on what the documents actually say?

By the way, reading through that motion reminded me about Bruyneel getting questioned by the Feds at the Tour of California - I seem to remember at the time it was unclear exactly which investigation he was being questioned as part of: was that ever resolved?

Bruyneel was questioned for the Qui Tam case. He will never be visiting the US again.

The ruling was not all in Lance's favor, in fact much of it was not. The judge denied his request for access to landis' statements to the Feds, said the Feds offer to search calenders was sufficient. He also ruled that the Feds do not have to share GJ testimony with lance. If he wants it he can try to request it himself.

The judge also crushes the leak nonsense. The reason Qui Tam cases are sealed is to allow the Government to prepare their case, not to protect defendants. The judge points out the cases Armstrong lawyers used to support their request for communication between the Feds and the press clearly show this and Armstrong tried to twist them to support his request. Big Fail by Lance's paid liars.

The judge also ruled that the Feds had already given lance info on how they calculate damages and they do not need to produce anything else. This may seem minor but it is larger then it seems. I have not seen any of these documents but I know from talking to experts in these type of cases how damages are calculated. Lance has tried hard in all of his filings and interviews to say that USPS received benefit from their sponsorship. He must know that this has ZERO to do with how damages are calculated. Damages are calculated by how much the Government would have paid if they knew the team was doping. The answer is simple, zero. Lance, and his lawyers, must know this......but continue to try to twist it publicly.

The judge will review the witnesses testimony and release them on an individual basis. Yes, this is a victory for lance but not for the Qui Tam case. Anything related to this case he would have received anyways. Now he gets to see what some of his buddies said about him. For a guy with a history of vindictiveness this is a big deal......but it will do nothing to help him in this case

 

[Benotti69]

........


Now he gets to see what some of his buddies said about him. For a guy with a history of vindictiveness this is a big deal......but it will do nothing to help him in this case

Well without a private plane to fly to whatever place he gets tipped off they are at he will have a hard time enacting his vindictiveness in person.

But their might be some interesting articles coming soon with info from Armstrong.....go on Lance get Sally Jenkins on the phone to do some dirty work.

 

[D-Queued]

Well without a private plane to fly to whatever place he gets tipped off they are at he will have a hard time enacting his vindictiveness in person.

But their might be some interesting articles coming soon with info from Armstrong.....go on Lance get Sally Jenkins on the phone to do some dirty work.

Couldn't we also expect the reverse?

If testimony is open to Lance, then might some of that testimony be leaked by those that provided it?

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

Couldn't we also expect the reverse?

If testimony is open to Lance, then might some of that testimony be leaked by those that provided it?

Dave.

Sure.

this aint over by a long shot.