Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 4 (Post-Settlement)

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Finished this yesterday right after finishing The Last Dance. If Michael Jordan had been a cyclist, he definitely would have doped, as would Steve Jobs and other single-minded, hyper-competitive, strong personalities, IMO. Interesting that some of his peers have come out recently saying he would have won no matter what because he was a "force of nature" who couldn't be stopped. Obviously, we'll never know. But I do think that his competitiveness, assertiveness (/bullying), and fixation was worth some amount of fitness.

Was Lance as good as a 15-year-old triathlete as the documentary made it sound? I hadn't known he was a phenom like that.

Also, while I found him more compelling, charismatic (except with the Rice football team, which was cringeworthy), intelligent, and self-aware than other posters seem to have, his comments on Landis in particular are baffling. When he told the Young Presidents Organization that what Landis had done was unforgivable, I was dumbfounded. Landis telling the truth about Lance was unforgivable, but people should forgive Lance for the atrocious behavior Landis told the truth about? Can't really understand how he rationalizes that.

Overall, this reminded me what I appreciated and respected about him during his run - his tenacity, his will to win, his indomitable personality - and also why I ultimately cheered for Contador over him and rooted for Lance's downfall. And also why I listen to The Move despite Lance not because of Lance.
 
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Almost! I did laugh out loud. Still trying to control the narrative. Did you all see where someone was saying he knew about random comments on message boards? I got some satisfaction knowing he was monitoring all the spot on commentary that happened here.

I did like how one of the cancer survivors talked about the tangible results of Livestrong's work WRT sterility following cancer treatment, it gave me an appreciation for "cancer awareness" that I had certainly been lacking. That woman having 4 kids she would never have had without knowing about the sterility issues from chemo...that's a lot of good coming out of Livestrong's efforts and Lance's transparency around own chemo experiences. As are all humans, he's a complex mix of good and bad. He's still delusional if he thinks there's no difference between what he did (sued people, ruined lives) and what the others did. He's got an amazing ability to admit some stuff and totally be in denial about other things. Always fighting.

I enjoyed the documentary. A good wrap. By the way, his fiancée seems super nice. I really like her. Wonder how she copes with a guy like that who makes everything about himself.
Yes the interview with the cancer survivor was worth including as was the interview with Emma O'Reilly who is probably the hero of the whole sorry saga as she knew what the outcome was going to be initially. I'm sure his comment about his relationship with Sheryl Crowe will be noted ; about how he was with her for a long time but was never very happy ! Not even sure why he would even bother saying that. The most perplexing part was at the very end when he seemed to be saying that Lars Ullrich and Pantani were both victims like him ! He was never close friends with Ullrich but seemed to empathize with him simply because he was Armstrong's main rival through the years. Although Armstrong did do the decent thing and reached out to him when Ullrich was having problems. Armstrong's family seem to be pretty grounded especially his son which was good to see. As for the dinner preparation scene and the cut finger, for some reason I was expecting something weird to happen there and the way he was holding the knife reminded me of how children try and help their mothers in the kitchen ! Landis came across as one of the more interesting personalities in the documentary.
 
Why? That's not what she does, not really. She makes films about people. Bernard Tapie, Richard Pryor, Robin Williams. She's interested in getting under the skin of the person. That's what interests her.

She's not a sports fan, Armstrong barely feaured on her radar until Alex Gibney's film came along and even only then cause she was mates with Gibney. She's a people person, she likes to analyse people and show what makes them tick, and this is a film about a person, not about doping.

In the game of show and tell, she prefers to show, not tell. She's not preaching, she's revealing. This isn't investigative journalism. This is story telling.
This presentation and her ability to show, in particular his perspective on other riders and what happened to "him" was a good summation. I think it allows the viewer to see more about him than many of his often repeated words and draw independent conclusions.
 
That was all Ballester's side, wasn't it? Ballester was forensic, building a case, Walsh was more into hounding people into talking to him.
I take your word on this one, it is the most plausible and likely the 100 % right explanation about the exect authorship of the book.

This also explains why I find so much in La Confidentiel somewhat fresh having heard (and read) the Walsh story repeated almost ad nauseam around 2012-2015.
 
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The producer of this documentary and other reporters/journalists who have tried to get some sort of insightful interview with Armstrong all make the same mistake-trying to paint a three-dimensional portrait of a one-dimensional character.

Those who are "riveted" by his presence do not see how his boorish arrogance, masquerading as charisma, has affected them when in the presence his of his celebrity. And that difference needs to be clarified for a viewing public who may not be well-versed in all things Armstrong.
 
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The producer of this documentary and other reporters/journalists who have tried to get some sort of insightful interview with Armstrong all make the same mistake-trying to paint a three-dimensional portrait of a one-dimensional character.

Those who are "riveted" by his presence do not see how his boorish arrogance, masquerading as charisma, has affected them when in the presence his of his celebrity. And that difference needs to be clarified for a viewing public who may not be well-versed in all things Armstrong.
I think in the 2nd installment LA pretty much displayed the characteristics you mention. That was a more subtle and damning touch by the journalist and should challenge any blind supporters, somewhat. He is a polarizing figure in that some mega-fans have difficulty admitting how misplaced their support may have been. When they seek to excuse or equivocate his past they may be groping for a justification for their embarrassment.
 
And so Bruyneel takes his opportunity to equivocate....and whine as well. While he may have some direct knowledge about fellow racers his take on Lemond is totally self-serving.
These two got caught driving 180mph in a 20 mph school zone. Bitching about the unsanctioned drivers that do 5mph over the limit doesn't make you innocent. 2XPOS.
 
And so Bruyneel takes his opportunity to equivocate....and whine as well. While he may have some direct knowledge about fellow racers his take on Lemond is totally self-serving.
These two got caught driving 180mph in a 20 mph school zone. Bitching about the unsanctioned drivers that do 5mph over the limit doesn't make you innocent. 2XPOS.
Let me fix that sentence for you:
These two got caught driving 180 mph in a 100 mph zone. Bitching about the unsanctioned drivers doing 175 mph doesn't make you innocent.

For me in general (this could go for or any sports star):
-I was a fan
-I knew something was up
-He got outed
-My feelings weren't hurt

I think that the last point is a big thing. Many people took it personally IMO.

I probably won't watch his 30-30, but I do watch the move occasionally if he has a guest that I want to hear.

LIVESTRONG helped my mother and father a great deal while my dad was dying from cancer. I don't care if it was fake for LA, the organization was good.
 
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The most disgusting display of his personality is how well he gets to live off the proceeds of his ill-gotten gains, money that he stole from sponsors like Bristol-Myers Squibb, speaking engagements from Livestrong and the Tour itself and he is still nothing but a bratty, entitled schmuck.

Gotta love the way he continues to throw Hincapie under the bus with his comment about him-(paraphrasing)"look at Hincapie...and people still buy his ***". Nice. It's easy to lose respect for Hincapie, another pathetic slug in this sordid drama, who refuses to stand up to this bully because all he is thinking about is how he can continue to cash in on his relationship with Armstrong.
 
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Oct 7, 2019
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In his latest interview, it appears that Johan Bruyneel is throwing doping allegations, in the direction of Greg Lemond. "Extraordinary allegations require extraordinary evidence."
 
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In his latest interview, it appears that Johan Bruyneel is throwing doping allegations, in the direction of Greg Lemond. "Extraordinary allegations require extraordinary evidence."
I just barely skimmed that interview because I mostly don't care what he has to say at this point, but it seemed like he was using the "XXXXX was one of the best and he admitted to doping, but GL still beat him" reasoning. I admit to using that reasoning too.
 
The most disgusting display of his personality is how well he gets to live off the proceeds of his ill-gotten gains, money that he stole from sponsors like Bristol-Myers Squibb, speaking engagements from Livestrong and the Tour itself and he is still nothing but a bratty, entitled schmuck.

Gotta love the way he continues to throw Hincapie under the bus with his comment about him-(paraphrasing)"look at Hincapie...and people still buy his ***". Nice. It's easy to lose respect for Hincapie, another pathetic slug in this sordid drama, who refuses to stand up to this bully because all he is thinking about is how he can continue to cash in on his relationship with Armstrong.
His personality appears to be a product of his upbringing, if the overall impression of his parents' involvement is accepted. It can't explain everything but he doesn't sound like a person held accountable for much.
As for his ill-gotten gains; look to his investment opportunities from Weisel and other investment types that were overwhelming fans. He didn't earn it so much as being endowed. Nice bail-out, for sure.
 
Juliet Macur - not noted for defending LA - would argue differtently.
While she can argue differently with the rest of us but would she in the context: "His personality appears to be a product of his upbringing, if the overall impression of his parents' involvement is accepted." was of the 30 30 episode.

His personality early and often in the cycling world was very similar to what that episode portrayed, minus the tears.
 
The most disgusting display of his personality is how well he gets to live off the proceeds of his ill-gotten gains, money that he stole from sponsors like Bristol-Myers Squibb, speaking engagements from Livestrong and the Tour itself and he is still nothing but a bratty, entitled schmuck.

Gotta love the way he continues to throw Hincapie under the bus with his comment about him-(paraphrasing)"look at Hincapie...and people still buy his ***". Nice. It's easy to lose respect for Hincapie, another pathetic slug in this sordid drama, who refuses to stand up to this bully because all he is thinking about is how he can continue to cash in on his relationship with Armstrong.
Certainly he was the best of the "bank robbers" of the Tour de Dope era:


"More importantly for Lance Armstrong, during the 7-year window when he won every Tour de France (1999-2005), 87% of the top-10 finishers (61 of 70) were confirmed dopers or suspected of doping."

87%! :eek: Called it Tour de Dope...Tour de Pharmacy...Tour de Cheaters...or whatever. Lol.

I imagine the other top performing dopers of that prevalent doping era also got to keep all of their ill-gotten earnings (Zulle, Ullrich, Basso, Vinokourov, Rumšas, Mayo, etc). If fact, CAS had ruled that Vinokourov didn't owe the UCI a year’s salary, amounting to €1.2 million, dating back to his positive for homologous blood doping during the 07 Tour. Hilarious!...getting rewarding for doping!

LA was the best placing doper for 7 consecutive Tours. So, the question is how? Better doping program/doctor? Higher responder to the various combinations of drugs? Better doped teams? All of the above?

Since the standard doping products that most everyone was using back then was EPO/blood doping, HGH, androgens, corticosteroids- what gave LA such a decisive advantage over the other dopers? And I've noticed that LA never addresses this nor is he ever asked point blank about it in his interviews (though he'd probably be ambiguous. Lol).
 
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LA was the best placing doper for 7 consecutive Tours. So, the question is how? Better doping program/doctor? Higher responder to the various combinations of drugs? Better doped teams? All of the above?
I'd guess all of the above. He had an exclusive contract with Ferrari. Though the number isn't certain, it appears he had a fairly low natural HT, giving him an advantage in EPO/blood transfusions, particularly when the 50% limit was set. Regarding the third, remember, a major innovation of his teams was to have doms good enough to set a very fast pace, and drop all but a handful of rivals when the key MTF began. Doping everyone on the team was critical to that strategy. It also meant focussing totally on LA, with no sprinters or others who might win stages that weren't critical to the GC. Not to mention strong TTers when there was a TTT. Ullrich might have won in 2003 if he hadn't lost significant time in the TTT.

Still another factor was that LA focussed solely on the TDF. Unlike multiple Tour winners preceding him, he never competed in the other GTs during those seven years.
 
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