Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 4 (Post-Settlement)

[hulkgogan]

Funny thing. I once asked Floyd why Vaughters and Tommy D were not very successful. They both had the numbers in testing. They had the potential to be great. What happened? With no hesitation he responded with "focus". Those guys could not concentrate on training the same way Lance and Floyd could. It is day after day, week after week, month after month of being singularly focused on the goal. That is what I think the difference was. It was not some secret drug or special doping regimen; the same things were available to everyone else. Floyd and Lance were very talented bad ass mofos who were driven to a degree others were not.

I buy that for Floyd, but was Lance ever that big a trainer? Compared to say Froome? I always got the impression he was doing the hours of a pro, but not anything special.

 

[yaco]

Tygart is very religious. His right hand man is too, maybe even more so. Tygart was genuinely offended when Lance publicly dismissed the role of god in his recovery.

Beyond that, Tygart was convinced he could bring the governing body of cycling down with corruption charges, leading to a landmark case and publicity for himself and USADA. He was targeting something that did not exist. The idea was put there by the likes of Betsy Andreu and Vaughters. They had an infantile view akin to something you would see in a Hollywood movie, like secret cabals and furtive phone calls with money being passed around under the table and rivals being targeted for positives. Tygart bought into it. This is the reason he was willing to go outside WADA rules, to go beyond the statute of limitations, to take away victories that occurred before WADA even existed, etc. He thought Armstrong would break and give up the UCI with stories of paying people off. This is also why a deal was never struck; Tygart was after something Lance could not give him.

Tygart apparently never considered his beliefs in a conspiracy could be better explained by Adam Smith's invisible hand. It does not take guys in trench coats smoking cigarettes in the shadows. It only takes the stakeholders knowing which side of the bread is buttered then acting in their own self interest. Verbruggen did the same for other riders, like Luc Leblanc. that he did for Armstrong. In fact he is on record as saying he did not see the difference between getting a TUE before testing positive or afterward. Verbruggen dismissing a positive for a corticosteroid was not a unique act that would prove a conspiracy; it was just business as usual.

Good post - Under the WADA rules at the time, Armstrong would only have been stripped of two years of results if he pleaded guilty - It was the not guilty plea that made Lance lose seven years of results.

 

[Cookster15]

Funny thing. I once asked Floyd why Vaughters and Tommy D were not very successful. They both had the numbers in testing. They had the potential to be great. What happened? With no hesitation he responded with "focus". Those guys could not concentrate on training the same way Lance and Floyd could. It is day after day, week after week, month after month of being singularly focused on the goal. That is what I think the difference was. It was not some secret drug or special doping regimen; the same things were available to everyone else. Floyd and Lance were very talented bad ass mofos who were driven to a degree others were not.

Yes no argument from me on Lance's focus, that was the reason he beat Jan with less raw ability. But the thing is there are other examples of riders who are highly driven but didn't trigger alarms and didn't threaten or intimidate anyone who dared call them out. With Floyd even Stuart O'Grady called him out on that stage.

 

[Oldermanish]

I buy that for Floyd, but was Lance ever that big a trainer? Compared to say Froome? I always got the impression he was doing the hours of a pro, but not anything special.

The season he got cancer he was doing ridiculous early season training at Motorola's camp. Weight training along with huge rides saw him put weight on; much to the confusion of the team staff. Their question to other team riders: "what's he taking?"

 

[Swamp Holland]

Tygart is very religious. His right hand man is too, maybe even more so. Tygart was genuinely offended when Lance publicly dismissed the role of god in his recovery.

Beyond that, Tygart was convinced he could bring the governing body of cycling down with corruption charges, leading to a landmark case and publicity for himself and USADA. He was targeting something that did not exist. The idea was put there by the likes of Betsy Andreu and Vaughters. They had an infantile view akin to something you would see in a Hollywood movie, like secret cabals and furtive phone calls with money being passed around under the table and rivals being targeted for positives. Tygart bought into it. This is the reason he was willing to go outside WADA rules, to go beyond the statute of limitations, to take away victories that occurred before WADA even existed, etc. He thought Armstrong would break and give up the UCI with stories of paying people off. This is also why a deal was never struck; Tygart was after something Lance could not give him.

Tygart apparently never considered his beliefs in a conspiracy could be better explained by Adam Smith's invisible hand. It does not take guys in trench coats smoking cigarettes in the shadows. It only takes the stakeholders knowing which side of the bread is buttered then acting in their own self interest. Verbruggen did the same for other riders, like Luc Leblanc. that he did for Armstrong. In fact he is on record as saying he did not see the difference between getting a TUE before testing positive or afterward. Verbruggen dismissing a positive for a corticosteroid was not a unique act that would prove a conspiracy; it was just business as usual.

Good takes Bro. Tygart broke some of the norms. Having Betsy and JV beating the drums gave him more confidence to stay on the LA trail. Does anyone here remember the party's they used to have with Tygart - Betsy - Greg in new york was it nyvelocity that put the parties on? Also who was it the DOJ or which agency that dropped the case on Lance? Everyone tried to say that the DOJ was bought off?

 

[samhocking]

Funny thing. I once asked Floyd why Vaughters and Tommy D were not very successful. They both had the numbers in testing. They had the potential to be great. What happened? With no hesitation he responded with "focus". Those guys could not concentrate on training the same way Lance and Floyd could. It is day after day, week after week, month after month of being singularly focused on the goal. That is what I think the difference was. It was not some secret drug or special doping regimen; the same things were available to everyone else. Floyd and Lance were very talented bad ass mofos who were driven to a degree others were not.

Very similar to what you hear others riders say of Froome. Porte went into a lot of details on what makes Froome tick compared to other riders. Apart from the lack of him bullying anyone obviously, all very similar to what you hear people say of Armstrong & Hinault, Anquetil etc. Simply they have this internal hard as nails drive and focus to win. Porte even said, while he could regularly beat Froome on his day, that isn't enough for stage racing, you have to maintain focus and he admitted he can't, Froome can.

 

[Merckx index]

Beyond that, Tygart was convinced he could bring the governing body of cycling down with corruption charges, leading to a landmark case and publicity for himself and USADA. He was targeting something that did not exist. The idea was put there by the likes of Betsy Andreu and Vaughters. They had an infantile view akin to something you would see in a Hollywood movie, like secret cabals and furtive phone calls with money being passed around under the table and rivals being targeted for positives. Tygart bought into it. This is the reason he was willing to go outside WADA rules, to go beyond the statute of limitations, to take away victories that occurred before WADA even existed, etc. He thought Armstrong would break and give up the UCI with stories of paying people off. This is also why a deal was never struck; Tygart was after something Lance could not give him.

I agree with much of this, but the last, bolded passage I wonder about. It was reported--and we're mostly getting TT's side of the story--that Tygart offered LA a deal, maybe lose two or three TDF titles if he confessed to some doping. And LA refused.

Why did LA refuse? The view at the time--and I think that view has held up--was that LA thought he was untouchable. After all, he had been for so many years. So why give up two or three titles when he could most likely keep them all? It was a gamble, but maybe not much of one, given that if he had lost even one, let alone several titles, the ones he retained would have been tainted, anyway. The nature of the case Tygart was building made it clear that LA didn't dope for just some Tours, but all of them. Maybe his name would have remained in the record books, as a four or five time winner officially, but everything else would have been gone: the endorsements, the cancer foundation, the respect and admiration of the public.

What was Tygart after in proposing the deal? It seems to me, the same thing he got from other riders: details about who, what, when, where, etc. As I understand it, the other riders got off with relatively light sanctions, because they were willing to cooperate. LA was not willing to. Maybe Tygart expected more from LA, but even if Tygart was after something totally unrealistic, LA would not have known this without first talking with Tygart, and AFAIK, he never did. . He just blew him off.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think LA refused a deal because he couldn't deliver what was asked. He refused a deal because he was never going to admit to doping under any circumstances. He had far more to lose than a few years worth of results.

Funny thing. I once asked Floyd why Vaughters and Tommy D were not very successful. They both had the numbers in testing. They had the potential to be great. What happened? With no hesitation he responded with "focus". Those guys could not concentrate on training the same way Lance and Floyd could. It is day after day, week after week, month after month of being singularly focused on the goal. That is what I think the difference was. It was not some secret drug or special doping regimen; the same things were available to everyone else. Floyd and Lance were very talented bad ass mofos who were driven to a degree others were not.

I would think that at the very pinnacle of the sport, guys who were getting away mostly on talent alone would have been weeded out. I know focus is a perennial feel-good story in sport--I got to the top because I worked harder than others--but I question how large a role it plays in separating the very best. After all, there is a limit to training. You can only train so many hours a day, so many days a week; if you exceed that, you're likely to get worse, not better.

These guys are professionals. Professionals--indeed most people--expect to spend long hours doing things that aren't particularly pleasant. Some can't handle it, for sure, but a lot can.

 

[Bolder]

I would think that at the very pinnacle of the sport, guys who were getting away mostly on talent alone would have been weeded out. I know focus is a perennial feel-good story in sport--I got to the top because I worked harder than others--but I question how large a role it plays in separating the very best. After all, there is a limit to training. You can only train so many hours a day, so many days a week; if you exceed that, you're likely to get worse, not better.

These guys are professionals. Professionals--indeed most people--expect to spend long hours doing things that aren't particularly pleasant. Some can't handle it, for sure, but a lot can.

Not sure if it's working harder per se, but maximizing your training, knowing your body, finding a program (doping or otherwise...) that works for you.

I take "focus" to mean more like making sure that everything you do is aimed at reaching your goal. The fact that LA was able to win 7 TdFs in a row -- over a slew of admitted and caught dopers just like him -- is a testimony to that.

 

[Castman]

Why did LA refuse?

What was Tygart after in proposing the deal?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think LA refused a deal because he couldn't deliver what was asked.

The Weasel, Nike? Just a couple that come to mind.

 

[Cloxxki]

Funny thing. I once asked Floyd why Vaughters and Tommy D were not very successful. They both had the numbers in testing. They had the potential to be great. What happened? With no hesitation he responded with "focus". Those guys could not concentrate on training the same way Lance and Floyd could. It is day after day, week after week, month after month of being singularly focused on the goal. That is what I think the difference was. It was not some secret drug or special doping regimen; the same things were available to everyone else. Floyd and Lance were very talented bad ass mofos who were driven to a degree others were not.

Lance had the UCI and media in his pocket. Saved his bacon already pre-TdF in 1999, I seem to remember.

And would it not offer him an edge to have a naturally low Ht of 39, topping off to 55 and after the stage watering down to <50 before a test? Between 42 and 39 is a real difference.
What was Floyd's natural Ht?

 

[fmk_RoI]

And would it not offer him an edge to have a naturally low Ht of 39

This, again.

Supporting evidence for this 'fact' please.

 

[Cloxxki]

This, again.

Supporting evidence for this 'fact' please.

7 Lies Lance Armstrong Will Always Tell

In honor of his 7 stripped Tour de France titles, here are 7 lies Team Lance will go on peddling after the so-called confession. I might be wrong on one or two, of course. (Hope so, in fact.) But as Armstrong is the devil's perfect con man’s combo of narcissist, sociopath and liar, let’s just...

www.forbes.com

Just one of them. Did they make it up?

 

[Aragon]

7 Lies Lance Armstrong Will Always Tell

In honor of his 7 stripped Tour de France titles, here are 7 lies Team Lance will go on peddling after the so-called confession. I might be wrong on one or two, of course. (Hope so, in fact.) But as Armstrong is the devil's perfect con man’s combo of narcissist, sociopath and liar, let’s just...

www.forbes.com

Just one of them. Did they make it up?

I don't know where the claim about super-low Hct between 38 and 41 comes from. His 2008-9 Hct data is readily available, and there are 3 out of the 21 readings that are below 40, and without the lowest end of Giro reading of 38.2, the two lowest are 39.3 and 39.4, all the rest are above 40, most by a point or two. Both his "natural" Hct values from 1997-98 quoted by Walsh and Ballester were also 41.2 and 41.4, no evident "natural" 38 or 39 there.

If the mean natural Hct of athletes is usually considered to be around 42 or 43, ie. a few points below the normal mean, the tendency of LA's quoted "clean" values was only barely if at all lower than that.

 

[Oldermanish]

I don't know where the claim about super-low Hct between 38 and 41 comes from. His 2008-9 Hct data is readily available, and there are 3 out of the 21 readings that are below 40, and without the lowest end of Giro reading of 38.2, the two lowest are 39.3 and 39.4, all the rest are above 40, most by a point or two. Both his "natural" Hct values from 1997-98 quoted by Walsh and Ballester were also 41.2 and 41.4, no evident "natural" 38 or 39 there.

If the mean natural Hct of athletes is usually considered to be around 42 or 43, ie. a few points below the normal mean, the tendency of LA's quoted "clean" values was only barely if at all lower than that.

Being in the low 40's still provides alot of upside as long as you're not caught. That would be the challenge they all faced.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Being in the low 40's still provides alot of upside as long as you're not caught.

Not relative to others.

 

[Oldermanish]

Not relative to others.

There are always "others". You have candidates and a meaning?

 

[86TDFWinner]

Tygart is very religious. His right hand man is too, maybe even more so. Tygart was genuinely offended when Lance publicly dismissed the role of god in his recovery.

Beyond that, Tygart was convinced he could bring the governing body of cycling down with corruption charges, leading to a landmark case and publicity for himself and USADA. He was targeting something that did not exist. The idea was put there by the likes of Betsy Andreu and Vaughters. They had an infantile view akin to something you would see in a Hollywood movie, like secret cabals and furtive phone calls with money being passed around under the table and rivals being targeted for positives. Tygart bought into it. This is the reason he was willing to go outside WADA rules, to go beyond the statute of limitations, to take away victories that occurred before WADA even existed, etc. He thought Armstrong would break and give up the UCI with stories of paying people off. This is also why a deal was never struck; Tygart was after something Lance could not give him.

Tygart apparently never considered his beliefs in a conspiracy could be better explained by Adam Smith's invisible hand. It does not take guys in trench coats smoking cigarettes in the shadows. It only takes the stakeholders knowing which side of the bread is buttered then acting in their own self interest. Verbruggen did the same for other riders, like Luc Leblanc. that he did for Armstrong. In fact he is on record as saying he did not see the difference between getting a TUE before testing positive or afterward. Verbruggen dismissing a positive for a corticosteroid was not a unique act that would prove a conspiracy; it was just business as usual.

LMAO! So lemme see if I understand this correctly: You're claiming that Betsy Andreu & Vaughters are @ fault for TT going after & eventually busting a lying, cheating, psychopathic, sociopathic, thieving doper, in Wonderboy? Just so we're clear?

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 4 (Post-Settlement



When you strip back all the envy, bias, and hate written against Lance he's a decent person that prefers to defend himself and the sport rather than go on the attack against others he dislikes.

He also never insulted humanity by saying him winning is due to his superior marginal gains galaxy brain due diligence and his culture being too morally pure to dope.

So I don't Lance throwing Froome under the bus in order to restore his reputation is likely to happen

Sure!!!!! the guy doesn't have an iota of humility or empathy for others.

Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 4 (Post-Settlement



When you strip back all the envy, bias, and hate written against Lance he's a decent person that prefers to defend himself and the sport rather than go on the attack against others he dislikes.

He also never insulted humanity by saying him winning is due to his superior marginal gains galaxy brain due diligence and his culture being too morally pure to dope.

So I don't Lance throwing Froome under the bus in order to restore his reputation is likely to happen

Sure !!!!! Lance doesn't have an ounce of humility or empathy. I suggest you watch the classic David Walsh press conference, where Lance lied through his teeth and defamed Walsh while his partner in crime Floyd Landis sat there as silent as any coward ever has. Yeah a couple of real decent people!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Sure !!!!! Lance doesn't have an ounce of humility or empathy. I suggest you watch the classic David Walsh press conference, where Lance lied through his teeth and defamed Walsh while his partner in crime Floyd Landis sat there as silent as any coward ever has. Yeah a couple of real decent people!

 

[TourOfSardinia]

Sure !!!!! Lance doesn't have an ounce of humility or empathy. I suggest you watch the classic David Walsh press conference, where Lance lied through his teeth and defamed Walsh while his partner in crime Floyd Landis sat there as silent as any coward ever has. Yeah a couple of real decent people!

Don't throw Floyd under the same bus.
He's a reformed character.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Yes I am sorry. I did not mean Floyd. I agree he is a reformed character. I meant George Hincapie. My apologies to Floyd.

 

[Oldermanish]

There are always "others". You have candidates and a meaning?

Now this nugget from the icon of cycling knowledge; Phil L:

“He was naturally just extremely good,” Liggett said to 7News.com.au. “When Lance realised that the Tour de France was drug-ridden, he told his team ‘We’ll do it and we’ll do it better than they do it’. And if they didn’t agree, they were off the team. Most of his team had to take drugs just to back him up ... because Lance was exceptional.”

Having friends that rode with him on several teams there are plenty of folks out there that Phil could've consulted in addition to the voices in his echo/head. Another promotion for another payday, IMO.

 

[Oldermanish]

LOL! what does phil know?.....hardly up to speed when others were stating the obvious....

truth is....lance himself had little confidence in his abilities when riding clean

Mark L

I had never heard he voiced a lack of confidence but also can't lay claim to know when, if ever he raced clean. His career started at USA Cycling camps.

 

[Publiuszam]

LOL! what does phil know?.....hardly up to speed when others were stating the obvious....

truth is....lance himself had little confidence in his abilities when riding clean

Mark L

Didn't you know that lance sat him down on his bed and told him a bunch of stuff. What was Phil doing in Lance's bedroom is another question?

 

[Oldermanish]

Didn't you know that lance sat him down on his bed and told him a bunch of stuff. What was Phil doing in Lance's bedroom is another question?

Rings to kiss and all of that. Not sure who is kissing, though.