Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[MarkvW]

Great

You need to learn to read better.....



But here in The Clinic we worked it out last November:

That's great. It's also significant that those agencies are still involved four months later!

 

[Polish]

It is interesting that it is now public that the investigation has moved far beyond the FDA. Multiple Federal agencies are involved.

Have you been living under a rock RR?

It has been public knowledge since last year that multiple Federal agencies are on the case.

WSJ, SI, NYT, NYDaily, Sunday Times, ESPN, assorted Spanish Cycling sites.
They have all discussed the multiple Federal investigations.

Whistle blower, tax evasion, fraud, RICO, Global Distribution.
And GEICO wil save you 15% on car insurance....

Vekonews did not just break the story that multiple agencies are involved lol.

 

[Race Radio]

The absence of leaks about the investigation is a very good thing. This is multiple agencies working together without a leak. This is indicative of a very well run investigation.

I have been writing it for months. The article is missing one thing, the IRS is also involved.

 

[thehog]

wow, in this guy's universe, one would indeed wonder where the similarities between the average human being and the average monkey come from, if not from shared ancestry.

I personally like monkeys and they do less damage to the world than human beings in general and republicans in particular.
(not that kingston is saying he hates monkeys, but he's not showing them proper respect either, by denying a common origin)

Sad day when the only guy who half heartily supports you is a right-wing, god-loving, evoultion-non-believing crack-pot congressman who thinks god created earth, health care is only for the rich and the poor must pay their own way if they get cancer kinda dude. Poor Lance. Is this it? Is this what it's come down to?

 

[Polish]

-
- Not surprisingly, Kingston uses the same talking points LA's attorney has been using since the investigation began. "it's a waste of tax payer's money"

But Kingston is not issuing "talking points"

He is actually doing his job. More than talk. Taking action.
He actually controls how and where taxpayer's money is spent at the FDA.

The New York Daily News has an article that highlights Kingston's concerns:


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...looking_into_barry_bonds_roger_clemens_a.html



"Let's say that Lance Armstrong is guilty. What did we accomplish, and at the expense of what else?" asks Kingston.

 

[Benotti69]

"Let's say that Lance Armstrong is guilty. What did we accomplish, and at the expense of what else?" asks Kingston.

well its informs the 28million he's a fraud. that's a start. his career was doped so he is a fraud and a cheat. he was one of the lucky ones to beat cancer. he didn't change his body, he lied, is a fraud and a cheat...shall we continue or will i start painting pictures to make it easier for ya.

 

[Kodiak]

Jack Kingston is my rep in congress. I'll send an email and ask him why he's wasting time on a hearing like this when he waste's million annually in many more areas than investigating crimes against the government.

 

[Bala Verde]

But Kingston is not issuing "talking points"

You do know how congress works, right?

He is actually doing his job. More than talk. Taking action.
He actually controls how and where taxpayer's money is spent at the FDA.

Yes, he is doing a heckuva job. Because as the chairman of the Appropriations subcommittee that includes jurisdiction over agriculture [read: ~23 billion per year in discretionary spending] he should indeed focus on 1 FDA investigation, out of concern that tax payer dollars are 'not properly allocated'.

 

[sniper]

But Kingston is not issuing "talking points"

He is actually doing his job. More than talk. Taking action.
He actually controls how and where taxpayer's money is spent at the FDA.

The New York Daily News has an article that highlights Kingston's concerns:


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/m...looking_into_barry_bonds_roger_clemens_a.html



"Let's say that Lance Armstrong is guilty. What did we accomplish, and at the expense of what else?" asks Kingston.

In germany there is (well, was, before Libya and Japan happened) a similar discussion going on about what lying and cheating is all about, and why we should or should not convict somebody who is popular, has done lots of good for society, but has gained his high position within that society by cheating and lying.

The case is about a very popular and talented German defense minister, who used to call himself Dr. zu Guttenberg, until they recently uncovered that his entire dissertation was written by a frikkin ghostwriter.

the opinions among germans can roughly be divided into two camps:
people saying "let him stay on as a minister, who cares that he cheated, if he's done so much good for society", versus the rest, who feel that if he's not made to pay for his cheating, this will send out the wrong message to several layers of society, i.e. the message that cheating is tolerated, as long as it brings you high up the ladder.

I'm just saying, there are tons of reasons why people who've climbed up the ladder by cheating should be taken off that frikkin ladder by justice.

 

[thirteen]

Sad day when the only guy who half heartily supports you is a right-wing, god-loving, evoultion-non-believing crack-pot congressman who thinks god created earth, health care is only for the rich and the poor must pay their own way if they get cancer kinda dude. Poor Lance. Is this it? Is this what it's come down to?

ta on the original links (god, how i miss that show)!

but, yes, i am amazed that this is the best LA could come up with. are politicians smartening up as well?

 

[D-Queued]

Jack Kingston is my rep in congress. I'll send an email and ask him why he's wasting time on a hearing like this when he waste's million annually in many more areas than investigating crimes against the government.

Please do.

You do know how congress works, right?

Yes, he is doing a heckuva job. Because as the chairman of the Appropriations subcommittee that includes jurisdiction over agriculture [read: ~23 billion per year in discretionary spending] he should indeed focus on 1 FDA investigation, out of concern that tax payer dollars are 'not properly allocated'.

If he was interested in agriculture, perhaps he could ask Lance why he personally wastes so much precious water that could be used to grow important crops like tobacco.

His 'infatuation' with Lance will come to a quick end, however. Has anyone told Kingston about the proposed tobacco tax in California?

Tobacco Subsidies in 1st district of Georgia (Rep. Jack Kingston) totaled $24.0 million from 1995-2009

Dave.

 

[TheMaverick]

In germany there is (well, was, before Libya and Japan happened) a similar discussion going on about what lying and cheating is all about, and why we should or should not convict somebody who is popular, has done lots of good for society, but has gained his high position within that society by cheating and lying.

The case is about a very popular and talented German defense minister, who used to call himself Dr. zu Guttenberg, until they recently uncovered that his entire dissertation was written by a frikkin ghostwriter.

the opinions among germans can roughly be divided into two camps:
people saying "let him stay on as a minister, who cares that he cheated, if he's done so much good for society", versus the rest, who feel that if he's not made to pay for his cheating, this will send out the wrong message to several layers of society, i.e. the message that cheating is tolerated, as long as it brings you high up the ladder.

I'm just saying, there are tons of reasons why people who've climbed up the ladder by cheating should be taken off that frikkin ladder by justice.

It's a fascinating dilemma. I suppose the dynamics might change a little if all the other minister's dissertations were plagiarised as well and it was normal practise for his era.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It's a fascinating dilemma. I suppose the dynamics might change a little if all the other minister's dissertations were plagiarised as well and it was normal practise for his era.

The dynamic might be more accurate if the minister had exclusive access to the best plagiarist in the world and made some payments to hide his plagiarizing.

 

[Stingray34]

In germany there is (well, was, before Libya and Japan happened) a similar discussion going on about what lying and cheating is all about, and why we should or should not convict somebody who is popular, has done lots of good for society, but has gained his high position within that society by cheating and lying.

The case is about a very popular and talented German defense minister, who used to call himself Dr. zu Guttenberg, until they recently uncovered that his entire dissertation was written by a frikkin ghostwriter.

the opinions among germans can roughly be divided into two camps:
people saying "let him stay on as a minister, who cares that he cheated, if he's done so much good for society", versus the rest, who feel that if he's not made to pay for his cheating, this will send out the wrong message to several layers of society, i.e. the message that cheating is tolerated, as long as it brings you high up the ladder.

I'm just saying, there are tons of reasons why people who've climbed up the ladder by cheating should be taken off that frikkin ladder by justice.

The classical thinkers (Plato, Aristotle, Dionysis the Areopagite) are the fathers of western culture and they had something to say on this.

They argued that an act isn't good unless it's good in all respects, from the intention, the means of achieving it and the consequences of the act themselves. If any part of the act isn't good, then the outcome cannot be justified.

This is known as 'the ends do not justify the means.' An act and its consequences aren't virtuous unless the means are themselves good and virtuous.

A modern example is the argument over the ethics of the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945. The acts ended the war in the Pacific, which was good, but the means involved the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, which was bad. An even more recent example is the invasion of Iraq: it resulted in the removal of a dictator (which was arguably good) but it plunged the nation into civil war, again costing the lives of many thousands of innocents.

Lance's alleged actions pale in comparison, of course. I guess you should ask yourself a question: if want to achieve greatness, are you prepared to do just about anything to achieve it, including lying, cheating, intimidating, coercing, breaking the law, etc. Is that worth it? If success means misrepresenting yourself to the world, are you OK with that? Is it OK to be inconsistent and reward people for being dishonest? What does that mean for the integrity of a society?

If you believe in authenticity, if you believe in honesty and integrity, I don't think it's worth it. As for the supposed good Lance has done, Lance isn't a doctor and he isn't Jesus: he hasn't saved anyone.

He's been a really fast bike rider and made a stack of money. Maybe that's the real reason why people believe he deserves a free pass. Success equals virtue in our corrupted worldview. Don't fall for it.

 

[TheMaverick]

The dynamic might be more accurate if the minister had exclusive access to the best plagiarist in the world and made some payments to hide his plagiarizing.

Do you believe that? Floyd Landis won the tour without Ferrari's help.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Do you believe that? Floyd Landis won the tour without Ferrari's help.

Yes - who was the Ferrari customer that Landis beat in 2006?

 

[D-Queued]

...I misinterpreted?

Dave.

 

[sniper]

The classical thinkers (Plato, Aristotle, Dionysis the Areopagite) are the fathers of western culture and they had something to say on this.

They argued that an act isn't good unless it's good in all respects, from the intention, the means of achieving it and the consequences of the act themselves. If any part of the act isn't good, then the outcome cannot be justified.

This is known as 'the ends do not justify the means.' An act and its consequences aren't virtuous unless the means are themselves good and virtuous.

A modern example is the argument over the ethics of the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945. The acts ended the war in the Pacific, which was good, but the means involved the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, which was bad. An even more recent example is the invasion of Iraq: it resulted in the removal of a dictator (which was arguably good) but it plunged the nation into civil war, again costing the lives of many thousands of innocents.

Lance's alleged actions pale in comparison, of course. I guess you should ask yourself a question: if want to achieve greatness, are you prepared to do just about anything to achieve it, including lying, cheating, intimidating, coercing, breaking the law, etc. Is that worth it? If success means misrepresenting yourself to the world, are you OK with that? Is it OK to be inconsistent and reward people for being dishonest? What does that mean for the integrity of a society?

If you believe in authenticity, if you believe in honesty and integrity, I don't think it's worth it. As for the supposed good Lance has done, Lance isn't a doctor and he isn't Jesus: he hasn't saved anyone.

He's been a really fast bike rider and made a stack of money. Maybe that's the real reason why people believe he deserves a free pass. Success equals virtue in our corrupted worldview. Don't fall for it.

+1, good insightful post (in reply to another insightful post ).

anyway, I think LA chose the wrong branch for achieving greatness.
One day, he'll regret having chosen cycling.
His cheating has been too plain for everyone to see.

He could have gotten it all in soccer, without the lying. I mean, why lie, if nobody asks? Lie about what, if nobody tests?

 

[veganrob]

The classical thinkers (Plato, Aristotle, Dionysis the Areopagite) are the fathers of western culture and they had something to say on this.

They argued that an act isn't good unless it's good in all respects, from the intention, the means of achieving it and the consequences of the act themselves. If any part of the act isn't good, then the outcome cannot be justified.

This is known as 'the ends do not justify the means.' An act and its consequences aren't virtuous unless the means are themselves good and virtuous.

A modern example is the argument over the ethics of the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima in 1945. The acts ended the war in the Pacific, which was good, but the means involved the slaughter of thousands of innocent civilians, which was bad. An even more recent example is the invasion of Iraq: it resulted in the removal of a dictator (which was arguably good) but it plunged the nation into civil war, again costing the lives of many thousands of innocents.

Lance's alleged actions pale in comparison, of course. I guess you should ask yourself a question: if want to achieve greatness, are you prepared to do just about anything to achieve it, including lying, cheating, intimidating, coercing, breaking the law, etc. Is that worth it? If success means misrepresenting yourself to the world, are you OK with that? Is it OK to be inconsistent and reward people for being dishonest? What does that mean for the integrity of a society?

If you believe in authenticity, if you believe in honesty and integrity, I don't think it's worth it. As for the supposed good Lance has done, Lance isn't a doctor and he isn't Jesus: he hasn't saved anyone.

He's been a really fast bike rider and made a stack of money. Maybe that's the real reason why people believe he deserves a free pass. Success equals virtue in our corrupted worldview. Don't fall for it.

Great post.

 

[Anonymous]

You do know how congress works, right?



Yes, he is doing a heckuva job. Because as the chairman of the Appropriations subcommittee that includes jurisdiction over agriculture [read: ~23 billion per year in discretionary spending] he should indeed focus on 1 FDA investigation, out of concern that tax payer dollars are 'not properly allocated'.

Best post on the thread. A+ in political science. This investigation is not even large enough to be a drop in the bucket when you look at expenditures for the FDA. One must then ask if possibly, and call me crazy, a politician is making a public statement for rhetorical purposes as opposed to actually being concerned with fiscal ideological concerns. I know that is has never happened in the history of mankind, but I think this might be the first...

Polish generally shows intelligence, but he showed the opposite here.

 

[rhubroma]

In germany there is (well, was, before Libya and Japan happened) a similar discussion going on about what lying and cheating is all about, and why we should or should not convict somebody who is popular, has done lots of good for society, but has gained his high position within that society by cheating and lying.

The case is about a very popular and talented German defense minister, who used to call himself Dr. zu Guttenberg, until they recently uncovered that his entire dissertation was written by a frikkin ghostwriter.

the opinions among germans can roughly be divided into two camps:
people saying "let him stay on as a minister, who cares that he cheated, if he's done so much good for society", versus the rest, who feel that if he's not made to pay for his cheating, this will send out the wrong message to several layers of society, i.e. the message that cheating is tolerated, as long as it brings you high up the ladder.

I'm just saying, there are tons of reasons why people who've climbed up the ladder by cheating should be taken off that frikkin ladder by justice.

Yes, but in Italy we have a prime minister who throws bunga bunga parties and schlops minors, has had one of his former lawyers, Mills, convicted in Britian for taking a bribe to lie about and so cover up his illicit business affairs, has a business-political background that's laden with mafia connections and omertà, has lied repeatedly about such affairs, makes embarrassing and inappropriate comments at the EU parliament, and has been solidly in power for the past 20 years. Probably because he practically owns the Italian mass-media.

In Italy cheating, in certain spheres, is not only tolerated but admired.

At least there is another half of the country waiting to see justice done, however, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[sniper]

Yes, but in Italy we have a prime minister who throws bunga bunga parties and schlops minors, has had one of his former lawyers, Mills, convicted in Britian for taking a bribe to lie about and so cover up his illicit business affairs, has a business-political background that's laden with mafia connections and omertà, has lied repeatedly about such affairs, makes embarrassing and inappropriate comments at the EU parliament, and has been solidly in power for the past 20 years. Probably because he practically owns the Italian mass-media.

In Italy cheating, in certain spheres, is not only tolerated but admired.

At least there is another half of the country waiting to see justice done, however, I'm not holding my breath.

thanks for putting things in perspective.

But at least this guy Berlusconi doesn't try and hide that he's a cheat. He publicly stands for who he is.

This German bloke, on the other hand, had keywords such as "truthfulness", "honesty" and "live by the rules", written in capital letters all over his personal website and in his speeches, etc.
Ah, and he belongs to the German nobility. A noble fraud.

 

[Stingray34]

thanks for putting things in perspective.

But at least this guy Berlusconi doesn't try and hide that he's a cheat. He publicly stands for who he is.

This German bloke, on the other hand, had keywords such as "truthfulness", "honesty" and "live by the rules", written in capital letters all over his personal website and in his speeches, etc.
Ah, and he belongs to the German nobility. A noble fraud.

Good point; people admire a rogue if he's (somewhat) honest about it!

Rhubroma

Yes, but in Italy we have a prime minister who throws bunga bunga parties and schlops minors, has had one of his former lawyers, Mills, convicted in Britian for taking a bribe to lie about and so cover up his illicit business affairs, has a business-political background that's laden with mafia connections and omertà, has lied repeatedly about such affairs, makes embarrassing and inappropriate comments at the EU parliament, and has been solidly in power for the past 20 years. Probably because he practically owns the Italian mass-media.

In Italy cheating, in certain spheres, is not only tolerated but admired.

At least there is another half of the country waiting to see justice done, however, I'm not holding my breath.

Isn't there an Italian word for 'cunning' that, unlike the English term, actually has very positive connotations? As in, you're smart enough to outwit other corrupt people? Do you think Berlesconi has benefitted from a description like that, he's used it to his advantage?

 

[Stingray34]

This Kingston clown is an interesting development. Do you think he's latched onto the Armstrong FDA case to score points over Democrat spending, or is there a more sinister motivation? Is it possible a 'contribution' has be made to the good congressman? If so, why pick such a turkey? It would be too crazy.

Now that I think of it, it's a pretty dumb question on my behalf.

 

[uspostal]

Best post on the thread. A+ in political science. This investigation is not even large enough to be a drop in the bucket when you look at expenditures for the FDA. One must then ask if possibly, and call me crazy, a politician is making a public statement for rhetorical purposes as opposed to actually being concerned with fiscal ideological concerns. I know that is has never happened in the history of mankind, but I think this might be the first...

Polish generally shows intelligence, but he showed the opposite here.

While said congressman may be looking to shine a light on himself, if the FDA and all others spend 200 million to find LA took something that wasn't illegal at the time, I do concider it a waste of taxpayer money. If our 200 plus million nets the whole American Cycling drug ring then we have something. I guess I'm looking to get the most out of the tax dollars, the old cost verse benefit.