Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[VeloGirl]

@Cyclist Encoders....

My issue with your whole argument is your are painting a picture that puts TH in the wrong for being in a public restaurant, and seemingly placing no blame on the person that actually initiated (hostile) contact with TH.


I don't care if TH new the UCI, LA, GH, Flandis and the whole 1999 Postal team was there - he has every right to be there.

LA should have ignored him. But he can't. Because he has to save face in front of his Aspen "friends".

 

[Cyclist Encoders]

I'll remind you that you wrote this:
.... so you made that up, right?

So it is not nonsense to request you to back up what you say.

But we have to use our brains about it. When I state it's right near his house, I'm of course refering to the fact the restaurant is in his area rather than making a statement that his house is the very next house along.

Now have you been able to provide evidence that the location is not in his area; that the owner was lying about the regular visits (so why would he be a good friend if Armstrong never went there?) and have you found evidence that Tyler was lying that he thought Armstrong wouldn't be there because he didn't know it was in his area? And what are the names of the witnesses that heard Armstrong berating Tyler?

It's all somewhat of a muddle.

 

[Cal_Joe]

aaargh...
I wish someone would just shoot this thread already and put it out of its misery

WARNING! ATTEMPTED BRIBERY!

Second that regarding this train wreck. I'll send $500 to a charity of any choice (well, obvious exceptions) of any mod to shoot this thing.

END ATTEMPTED BRIBERY WARNING

 

[Maxiton]

It's funny that they use the same tactics against me as they accuse Armstrong. Smear him as being paid off, use threatening language, get someone in authority to take him out of the game.

It's interesting. Maybe we're all more like the people we hate in life than we like to think.

I'll give you that.

When ship Armstrong goes down, do you have a place on it too?

The Clinic makes a poor life raft, I think. But I do enjoy reading the Armstrong viewpoint.

 

[Cyclist Encoders]

When ship Armstrong goes down, do you have a place on it too?

It won't change anything for me. I could see him going down on the technicality about federal funds and possibly the tax thing, but it doesn't effect where I think he stands. I think it's a bigger deal for you guys. You really think it's going to lead to some massive changes in your lives. But Armstrong's reputation has already taken quite a big knock this year - has anything really changed for you? Are you feeling great about life? I think it could be quite anti climatic.

 

[Maxiton]

Don't you think you'd have been better off stopping at five wins, and not rubbing their noses in it? And being nicer to your teammates, looking out for their interests a little better after they left your team?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

But we have to use our brains about it. When I state it's right near his house, I'm of course refering to the fact the restaurant is in his area rather than making a statement that his house is the very next house along.

Well according to tripadvisor there are 160 restaurants in Aspen.

Now have you been able to provide evidence that the location is not in his area; that the owner was lying about the regular visits (so why would he be a good friend if Armstrong never went there?) and have you found evidence that Tyler was lying that he thought Armstrong wouldn't be there because he didn't know it was in his area? And what are the names of the witnesses that heard Armstrong berating Tyler?

It's all somewhat of a muddle.

It matters little what the owner says - you are the one suggesting Tyler should have known not to go to a regular haunt of Armstrong's, I have asked you to show how Hamilton would have known this.

 

[MarkvW]

When ship Armstrong goes down, do you have a place on it too?

I thought Armstrong was already down. How far down must he go?

 

[MarkvW]

It won't change anything for me. I could see him going down on the technicality about federal funds and possibly the tax thing, but it doesn't effect where I think he stands. I think it's a bigger deal for you guys. You really think it's going to lead to some massive changes in your lives. But Armstrong's reputation has already taken quite a big knock this year - has anything really changed for you? Are you feeling great about life? I think it could be quite anti climatic.

That's what LeBron said!

Never underestimate the power of schadenfreude!

 

[rata de sentina]

aaargh...
I wish someone would just shoot this thread already and put it out of its misery

I think that is actually the point. Don't worry it will be back on an even keel soon. These flare ups resolve themselves one way or another.

 

[Edgar Poe]

I think it's a bigger deal for you guys. You really think it's going to lead to some massive changes in your lives.

You bet. I'm expecting some big changes in my life with the Armstrong conviction. I've been working real hard for a promotion over the last 3 years and I think if Lance gets busted on the tax charge, it will put me over the top. And if LA goes down on the drug trafficking charge, it will help me lose some weight and have a healthier diet.

You have an odd perspective CE.

I actually just have a casual interest in the saga. I do find it interesting how he created such a strong positive public image, which involves so much deception. I had been an LA admirer for many years. A few years back, I had several European co-workers that were cycling fans. I got into many arguments with them in which I defended LA as a clean rider. I read INATB, and it was such a great story. But alas, it was just a story and only partially true. The sad thing is, even the true part would have been quite a story. It would have been enough. I think battling back from aggressive cancer to win such a physically and mentally grueling sport is pretty amazing. Even if it was played dirty with other dirty players. I hope LA has the courage to tell the truth and let the public judge the truth.

One thing that disappoints about LA is that he fused the cancer survivor with being a clean rider. In doing so, I think he was manipulative with the public. Saying things like "after what I went through with cancer, I would never put a drug in my body." or "I feel sorry for you if you don't believe in miracles".

Overall, I hope he gets held accountable for whatever crimes he committed. After its all said and done, I am interested to see what the general consensus is on whether people think he did more good than harm overall. Public opinion is clearly shifting and many previous casual fans such as myself are waking up to LA.

 

[Edgar Poe]

Don't you think you'd have been better off stopping at five wins, and not rubbing their noses in it? And being nicer to your teammates, looking out for their interests a little better after they left your team?

If he had stopped at five or six wins, retired for good, treated his previous teammates better, and focused on the cancer charity - he could have been in a different position. But LA overreached and seems to like drama and confrontation.

 

[Maxiton]

Interesting post from you, MarkvW, responding in another thread on May 25 to the question of whether LA would pressure or try to influence Hincapie:

No way.Tampering with a federal witness means jail. Intimidating a federal witness means more jail. Lance isn't even sure he will be indicted.Committing a felony in that circumstance would be mind-bogglingly stupid.

What say you now?

If he had stopped at five or six wins, retired for good, treated his previous teammates better, and focused on the cancer charity - he could have been in a different position. But LA overreached and seems to like drama and confrontation.

Honestly, I think if we knew what went on behind the scenes between LA and his people in collusion with the UCI muck-a-mucks vis a vis former postal riders and others getting busted, we'd be shocked. Of course that's just a guess on my part. One thing is sure, though: if Landis hadn't been busted, or if Armstrong had taken him in after he was busted, we wouldn't be having this discussion, any of it.

 

[ShawnB]

Only responding to Dr. Mas and Mark, to keep the discussion based in the real world and thus, helpful:

When you say the Law is not very black or white - is there a law for 'Intimidation of a defendant'?

As others have said, it's certainly true that a defendant may serve as witness for himself, so intimidating him and thus being charged with OOJ is absolutely possible. That particular point is valid.

But Armstrong is not a defendant, in anything.

IF he were someday to become a defendant, then starting at that point, OOJ charges would be possible for Tyler's subsequent actions, in a subsequent altercation.

But not this one.

For this scenario, not a fantasy one, misdemeanor assault, filed by the state in local district court, not feds, against Hamilton is about as good as it could possibly get for Big Pharma.

In contrast, Armstrong seems to qualify to be charged with felony A)intimidation and B) harassment of a federal witness (2 different charges), in an obstruction of justice case that would necessarily be tried in federal court.


Not a muddle at all.
Not that you said it was, Dr. Maserati, but that's the attempted messaging on this, so it helps to clarify what others are trying to obscure.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Hey new Toto!!

http://nyvelocity.com/content/toto/2011/toto-turns-232

 

[Polish]

You bet. Public opinion is clearly shifting and many previous casual fans such as myself are waking up to LA.

Edgar, hit the snooze button.
Go back to sleep.
Casual fans need their beauty sleep.

When you are fully rested and alert, we can discuss awesomeness
One Two Three Four Five Six Seven.

1999 U.S. Postal Service Tour de France roster:
Frankie Andreu (Dearborn, MI)
Lance Armstrong (Austin, TX)
Pascal Derame (France)
Tyler Hamilton (Brookline, MA)
George Hincapie (Charlotte, NC)
Kevin Livingston (Austin, TX)
Peter Meinert (Denmark)
Christian Vande Velde (Lemont, IL)
Jonathan Vaughters (Englewood, CO)

2000 TOUR DE FRANCE ROSTER Frankie Andreu (USA), 33, Dearborn, MI Lance Armstrong (USA), 28, Austin, TX Viatcheslav Ekimov (RUS), 34, Tortosa, ESP Tyler Hamilton (USA), 29, Marblehead, MA George Hincapie (USA), 27, Greenville, SC Benoit Joachim (LUX), 24, Foetz, LUX Kevin Livingston (USA), 27, Austin, TX Christian Vande Velde (USA), 24, Boulder, CO Cedric Vasseur (FRA), 29, Lambersart, FRA

2001 US Postal Service
1 Lance Armstrong (USA)
2 Roberto Heras (Spa)
3 Viatjeslav Ekimov (Rus)
4 Tyler Hamilton (USA)
5 George Hincapie (USA)
6 Steffen Kjaergaard (Nor)
7 Victor Hugo Pena (Col)
8 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa)
9 Christian Vandevelde (USA)

2002 US Postal Service
Armstrong
George Hincapie
Floyd Landis
Roberto Heras
Jose Luis Rubiera
Victor Hugo Pena
Viatcheslav Ekimov
Pavel Padrnos
Benoit Joachim.

2003 US Postal-Berry Floor
1 Lance Armstrong (USA)
2 Roberto Heras (Spa)
3 Manuel Beltran (Spa)
4 Vjatceslav Ekimov (Rus)
5 George Hincapie (USA)
6 Floyd Landis (USA)
7 Pavel Padrnos (Cze)
8 Victor Hugo Peña (Col)
9 José Luis Rubiera (Spa)

2004 USPS Tour De France roster:
Lance Armstrong (USA)
Jose Azevedo (POR)
Manuel Beltran (ESP)
Viatcheslav Ekimov (RUS)
George Hincapie (USA)
Floyd Landis (USA)
Benjamin Noval (ESP)
Pavel Padrnos (CZE)
Jose Luis Rubiera (ESP)

2005 Discovery Channel
1 Lance Armstrong (USA)
2 Jose Azevedo (Por)
3 Manuel Beltran (Spa)
4 George Hincapie (USA)
5 Benjamin Noval (Spa)
6 Pavel Padrnos (Cze)
7 Yaroslav Popovych (Ukr)
8 Jose Luis Rubiera (Spa)
9 Paolo Savoldelli (Ita)

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

Don't you think you'd have been better off stopping at five wins, and not rubbing their noses in it? And being nicer to your teammates, looking out for their interests a little better after they left your team?

Dunno 'bout five versus seven but the last bit has occurred to me. If Pharmstrong really did have the juice to have his 2001 positive in the TdS quashed, what if he'd used just a little of that to help FLandis get off? Then maybe FLandis doesn't break omertà, and maybe this investigation's uncaused first cause never happens.

Cycling's karmic cycle?

 

[ShawnB]

Regarding Armstrong approaching Hamilton:

...humans are humans and crazy stuff happens.

No. The burden is on any citizen -- you me or Lance -- to not intimidate or harass Hamilton with regard to his GJ testimony. The burden is definitively not on Hamilton.

Lance berating Tyler for talking on TV is not the same thing as Lance berating Tyler for his GJ testimony. That's a nuance that complicates things.

It's a distinction without a difference as regards intimidation. Intimidating Hamilton, a federal witness, is intimidating a federal witness -- it doesn't really matter the subject. so long as it can be reasonably construed to potentially affect (reverse) his testimony. THAT'S what's known as 'discretion'. The other citations in this thread were abuses of the term.

And as for the second potential charge, harassment: That's nearly as it sounds. If Armstrong indeed arrived later, spotted, and approached Hamilton, his neck is clearly on the block for this, should the feds wish it.

It should be said, too, that Armstrong's reported threats that he and his lawyers plan to 'make [Hamilton's] life a ****ing hell' are not something you quoted, Mark. But they do appear to potentially be OOJ witness retaliation, a separate crime, (18 U.S.C. 1513). Should there be testimony to validate Hamilton's report.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

It should be said, too, that Armstrong's reported threats that he and his lawyers plan to 'make [Hamilton's] life a ****ing hell' are not something you quoted, Mark. But they do appear to potentially be OOJ witness retaliation, a separate crime, (18 U.S.C. 1513). Should there be testimony to validate Hamilton's report.

Lance's vendetta against Frankie Andreu needs to be taken into account. Tyler must be well aware of Lance reportedly being behind Andreu's removal from a number of jobs. The threat of making his life a f***ing hell could reasonably be interpreted as a threat to his future livelihood.

 

[python]

Regarding Armstrong approaching Hamilton:

shawn, i have 2 questions.

it appears that armstrong was the one who stopped hamilton walking by. this is one of the confirmed facts (both by the restaurant co-owner and the hamilton's lawyer).

could this alone be the grounds for ooj charges if it also can be confirmed that armstrong was tipped off as to hamilton's presence in the restaurant ?

and how likely you think that armstrong's communications are tapped by the feds already ?

 

[Maxiton]

Dunno 'bout five versus seven but the last bit has occurred to me. If Pharmstrong really did have the juice to have his 2001 positive in the TdS quashed, what if he'd used just a little of that to help FLandis get off? Then maybe FLandis doesn't break omertà, and maybe this investigation's uncaused first cause never happens.

Cycling's karmic cycle?

Cycling's comic cycle, more like. This'll make a great dark comedy some day. Some kind of French New Wave thing.

 

[DirtyWorks]

One thing that disappoints about LA is that he fused the cancer survivor with being a clean rider. In doing so, I think he was manipulative with the public. Saying things like "after what I went through with cancer, I would never put a drug in my body." or "I feel sorry for you if you don't believe in miracles".

Well, Wonderboy also avoids the likely source of the cancer was the PED's. Remember, his doping goes back to being a very young guy on Carmichael and Wenzel's national team. His team members from the same era have had rather unusual medical conditions and successfully sued USAC for the doping. Carmichael was at least smart about it and settled out of court.

 

[jackwolf]

Ok, I found it for those of you who haven't seen "Liar Liar." Here's Fabiani's reaction after Lance calls him for legal advice on Sunday morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtFjKZgjIJ4

 

[blackcat]

Well, Wonderboy also avoids the likely source of the cancer was the PED's. Remember, his doping goes back to being a very young guy on Carmichael and Wenzel's national team. His team members from the same era have had rather unusual medical conditions and successfully sued USAC for the doping. Carmichael was at least smart about it and settled out of court.

goes back to triathlon actually

 

[jackwolf]

And of course, here's Jodi Larner on the subject of the non-functional camera:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edNMl1lqZmA&feature=related