Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[mewmewmew13]

I think Sniper hit some things that I and others have a problem with regarding Lance.
This must be obvious by now through all the comments and history of the 'Lance hater' postings?

I think most of us on here agree or at least acknowledge that a high percentage of riders have at some point or still dope?

Now, how many of these riders have bullied, intimidated, profited at others' expense , lied on a grand scale and perfected the art of being a general ***hole like his royal highness?

sheesh, the trolling just rolls on...like this thread.
oxygen

 

[Cobblestoned]

It is true that many, including myself, have more problems with LA's dope history than with other racers' dope history, some obvious reasons being (a) the protection LA received from above; (b) the fact that he got caught but was never banned and (c) his intimidation tactics.
To me, point (a) is clearly the most disturbing (although it obviously overlaps with (b)), which is also why I'm dying to see Verbruggen take the fall perhaps even more so than LA.

For me, there is nothing disturbing, because I know/think that

a) he was not the only "protected" VIP rider/team
b) yeah, thats the hardest part for the German Ullrichfanboys too, but somehow childish and with bad karma. Just the fact that Lance was never caught. Where was Lance caught, btw ?
If he would have really been caught, he would have been banned. Didn't happen.
It's as simple as that. we would know that.
c) ok, I understand that in some parts, but for most parts I see it as attacking defense or just defense or reaction.

Thing is, Lance is polarizing and a superstar. Because many people wanted to see and make him fall, many jealous people who tried to profit from LA in any way - this is why we got to know and got presented way more about Lance than about other guy from the circus.
On top of that, this anglophone forum is especially focused on Lance and might have missed many other things, that were not so much in their focus.
No problem at all. I learned many, more or less, significant things about LA since I read here or other anglophone forums.
But it didn't change anything. In no direction.

Lance is an ******* and clear alpha-dog. Yes. Part of the game if you want to make it to the top and want stay there.
But I care about cycling - not about who is the nicest guy.
Lance is cool and an awesome cyclist. Legend. I don't deny him and never will.
If I would deny Lance I had to deny cycling, parts of its history, and not only the Lance-part. My beloved sport.
I take all the good and all the bad things of it. My boys and my sport - with everthing it delivers.
I will always refuse to let Lance fall and step on him - like I did/do refuse with Ullrich too.
Those were great years, epic competitions and performances.
Pro cycling - a great show and big circus.
No one will ever change that.

 

[Velodude]

For me, there is nothing disturbing, because I know/think that

a) he was not the only "protected" VIP rider/team
b) yeah, thats the hardest part for the German Ullrichfanboys too, but somehow childish and with bad karma. Just the fact that Lance was never caught. Where was Lance caught, btw ?
If he would have really been caught, he would have been banned. Didn't happen.
It's as simple as that. we would know that.
c) ok, I understand that in some parts, but for most parts I see it as attacking defense or just defense or reaction... <snip>

a) Can you provide evidence of other "protected" VIP riders and teams. Failing provision of evidence your suspicions and the basis of those suspicions.

b) LA caught but not exposed by UCI -

- corticoids 1999 TdF (irregular acceptance by UCI of backdated prescription when rules required an advance TUE - no import declaration of Spanish origin corticoid by USPS),

- EPO positive 2001 Tour de Suisse (avoided with cash bribe),

- retrospective 2005 scientific analysis for presence of EPO of 1999 TdF B samples (fraudulent "exonerating" Vrijman report (friend of Verbruggen) coinciding with $100,000 LA donation to UCI after retirement).

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

When it comes to that, I think they can't not rewrite history.

Pharmstrong's chief defence is that he's the most drug-tested athlete in history. Who made him so? ASO and WADA. When time comes that everyone on the planet (excepting Polish) admits he was doped, ASO and WADA lose all credibility unless they a) correct the record or b) admit they don't know what they're doing.

I think option a) is the much more likely.

You guys have it all wrong, Polish knows he doped, he just doesn't give a sh!t.

I didn't say know, I said admit.

 

[Cal_Joe]

a) Can you provide evidence.....

Had to laugh at this one. Asking someone to provide "evidence" in a Clinic thread where rumor, innuendo, and pulling stuff out of one's behind (aka totally making things up) are the norm is really weird.

Sorry for the intrusion. Carry on.

 

[sniper]

For me, there is nothing disturbing, because I know/think that

a) he was not the only "protected" VIP rider/team
b) yeah, thats the hardest part for the German Ullrichfanboys too, but somehow childish and with bad karma. Just the fact that Lance was never caught. Where was Lance caught, btw ?
If he would have really been caught, he would have been banned. Didn't happen.
It's as simple as that. we would know that.
c) ok, I understand that in some parts, but for most parts I see it as attacking defense or just defense or reaction.

Thing is, Lance is polarizing and a superstar. Because many people wanted to see and make him fall, many jealous people who tried to profit from LA in any way - this is why we got to know and got presented way more about Lance than about other guy from the circus.
On top of that, this anglophone forum is especially focused on Lance and might have missed many other things, that were not so much in their focus.
No problem at all. I learned many, more or less, significant things about LA since I read here or other anglophone forums.
But it didn't change anything. In no direction.

Lance is an ******* and clear alpha-dog. Yes. Part of the game if you want to make it to the top and want stay there.
But I care about cycling - not about who is the nicest guy.
Lance is cool and an awesome cyclist. Legend. I don't deny him and never will.
If I would deny Lance I had to deny cycling, parts of its history, and not only the Lance-part. My beloved sport.
I take all the good and all the bad things of it. My boys and my sport - with everthing it delivers.
I will always refuse to let Lance fall and step on him - like I did/do refuse with Ullrich too.
Those were great years, epic competitions and performances.
Pro cycling - a great show and big circus.
No one will ever change that.

not a bad post at all, and, for what it's worth, I dig large parts of it (as far as your estimation of LA is concerned).

I did also state on a couple of occasions that I think it's undeniable that Lance's character had attractive sides to it, in terms of charisma, and especially compared to lame guys of the likes of Indurain, Sastre, Cadel, Contador, Menchov, Schleck, you name them.

I recently read an interview with the Dutch reporter Mart Smeets who's often accused of being too uncritical of Lance. When asked about it, Mart simply answered that throughout his carreer as a cycling reporter, Lance was the guy he had had most fun with. I think that's not difficult to imagine.

For me, much of my view on Lance and his doping past changed as a result of Floyd's coming clean, the new info we got through him, the story behind his 2006 positive, and the role of the UCI in all this.

Without denying LA's charisma, Floyd is my kind of guy. And just like Floyd, I'm more anxious to see Verbruggen/UCI fall than to see LA fall.

 

[sniper]

(...)

b) LA caught but not exposed by UCI -

- corticoids 1999 TdF (irregular acceptance by UCI of backdated prescription when rules required an advance TUE - no import declaration of Spanish origin corticoid by USPS),

- EPO positive 2001 Tour de Suisse (avoided with cash bribe),

- retrospective 2005 scientific analysis for presence of EPO of 1999 TdF B samples (fraudulent "exonerating" Vrijman report (friend of Verbruggen) coinciding with $100,000 LA donation to UCI after retirement).

these were indeed the instances I was referring to. The overall picture is quite compelling.

Btw., wasn't Vrijman also consulted by Contador on UCI's recommendation?
I think Vrijman even wrote one of the reports on the basis of which Contador was eventually exonerated by the RFEC.
Which is interesting in light of UCI's subsequent appeal.

 

[ChrisE]

It is true that many, including myself, have more problems with LA's dope history than with other racers' dope history, some obvious reasons being (a) the protection LA received from above; (b) the fact that he got caught but was never banned and (c) his intimidation tactics.
To me, point (a) is perhaps the most disturbing (which indeed overlaps with (b)), which is also why I'm dying to see Verbruggen take the fall perhaps even more so than LA.

A) Agreed. I was all into the fact that he could not have been the only one, and he may not be. But, the shear volume of tests vs his competition in the TdF has me backing off that assertion. See upthread about a month ago.
B) Do not agree. He got "caught" 5 years after the fact from a test with a test with no protocol in terms of rider's rights. He did not get punished, and rightly so. If you are talking about the backdated TUE then no argument here.
C) Whatever. It's a dog eat dog world.

Regardless, does all of that trump somebody cheating to deny others glory and income? Maybe A does, but obviously his competition was cheating as well so I don't put it on that level. If JU, Beloki, etc. were clean and LA was cheating with protection that is another level.

 

[sniper]

A) Agreed. I was all into the fact that he could not have been the only one, and he may not be. But, the shear volume of tests vs his competition in the TdF has me backing off that assertion. See upthread about a month ago.
B) Do not agree. He got "caught" 5 years after the fact from a test with a test with no protocol in terms of rider's rights. He did not get punished, and rightly so. If you are talking about the backdated TUE then no argument here.
C) Whatever. It's a dog eat dog world.

Regardless, does all of that trump somebody cheating to deny others glory and income? Maybe A does, but obviously his competition was cheating as well so I don't put it on that level. If JU, Beloki, etc. were clean and LA was cheating with protection that is another level.

No argument there, fully agree.
Which is exactly why LA or his fanboys (no reference to you, ChrisE) really shouldn't complain about him spending a couple of years behind bars. Hunters becoming the hunted. Part of the job. Rules of the game.

Which brings me to the next point, namely that I don't understand the fuzz among fanboys about Novitzky's investigations into US Postal and about the possibility of LA ending up behind bars. If one supports what LA did back in the days to become who he became, one should just as bravely accept the possible consequences of those deeds.

 

[ChrisE]

No argument there, fully agree.
Which is exactly why LA or his fanboys (no reference to you, ChrisE) really shouldn't complain about him spending a couple of years behind bars. Hunters becoming the hunted. Part of the job. Rules of the game.

Which brings me to the next point, namely that I don't understand the fuzz among fanboys about Novitzky's investigations into US Postal and about the possibility of LA ending up behind bars. If one supports what LA did back in the days to become who he became, one should just as bravely accept the possible consequences of those deeds.

No, I wouldn't complain. If he broke laws then he should be punished. It's a shame in a sense, because all other dopers defrauded their sponsors as well, transported illegal drugs, and whatever else he is accused of doing. The difference is his sponsor was the US govt. It would be nice if the whole sport would blow up. In a way this is like busted rides being felt as scapegoated when caught, when all the others are doing the same thing. But, not everybody that speeds gets pulled over for speeding either.

A mea culpa here....I posted a few months ago that I hoped he would get off just to watch everybody in here flip out. That was a pretty crude thing to write, and impulsive. I obviously think the obsession with LA in here is borderline psychotic, and alot of times petty. That has always been the source of friction with me and others in here, not whether or not he doped or did other things on a personal level to people.

This forum jousting should not sway anybody's sense of right and wrong, though. So, to people like TFF and RR who I was directing that towards I apologize.

 

[sniper]

No, I wouldn't complain. If he broke laws then he should be punished. It's a shame in a sense, because all other dopers defrauded their sponsors as well, transported illegal drugs, and whatever else he is accused of doing. The difference is his sponsor was the US govt. It would be nice if the whole sport would blow up. In a way this is like busted rides being felt as scapegoated when caught, when all the others are doing the same thing. But, not everybody that speeds gets pulled over for speeding either.

A mea culpa here....I posted a few months ago that I hoped he would get off just to watch everybody in here flip out. That was a pretty crude thing to write, and impulsive. I obviously think the obsession with LA in here is borderline psychotic, and alot of times petty. That has always been the source of friction with me and others in here, not whether or not he doped or did other things on a personal level to people.

This forum jousting should not sway anybody's sense of right and wrong, though. So, to people like TFF and RR who I was directing that towards I apologize.

It would be cruel, though, even for LA, if a character-, ball- and brain-less sleazebag like Verdruggin', who facilitated all this to happen, would walk free while LA ends up doing time. I'd object to that.

 

[Berzin]

This forum jousting should not sway anybody's sense of right and wrong, though.

Your sense of right and wrong is already swayed.

Whatever any other Tour rider did while riding against Armstrong doesn't lessen his guilt. But you think the law is a matter of playing semantics.

Keep defending your boy with any denials and obfuscations of the truth. You just look more and more foolish doing so.

If the Armstrong haters bother you, at least we are going by facts. You use whatever twisted logic you can incorporate to blame everyone except your hero, which is why it was so important that a legal arm of the Federal Government went after him and his people. The Feds cannot be bullied by the Armstrong Zombie Fanboy Express.

 

[ChrisE]

It would be cruel, though, even for LA, if a character-, ball- and brain-less sleazebag like Verdruggin', who facilitated all this to happen, would walk free while LA ends up doing time. I'd object to that.

C'est la vie. The ones in charge always seem to go unscathed while the underlings catch the fallout. That is the same all throughout life. The UCI was only one player, and others were doping as well so where is the line drawn on culpability? I do not think doping was occuring because of the UCI, though I do understand the outrage at those in charge turning a blind eye or beneffitting. Even so, I don't usually buy into the 'victim' angle.

 

[ChrisE]

Your sense of right and wrong is already swayed.

Whatever any other Tour rider did while riding against Armstrong doesn't lessen his guilt. But you think the law is a matter of playing semantics.

Keep defending your boy with any . You just look more and more foolish doing so.

You are the one that turns a blind eye and selectively uses moral outrage. You are hypocrite, probably the most blatant one on the forum.

It's established that you are a clown, so let's hammer home the characterization: Please post anything I have written where "denials and obfuscations of the truth" were written by me to defend what he has done or if he has doped or not. Good luck.

 

[Berzin]

You are the one that turns a blind eye and selectively uses moral outrage. You are hypocrite, probably the most blatant one on the forum.

It's established that you are a clown, so let's hammer home the characterization: Please post anything I have written where "denials and obfuscations of the truth" were written by me to defend what he has done or if he has doped or not. Good luck.

As for blatant hypocrites, I don't walk around with the anti-doping cross on my back getting flogged by the fanboys all the way to my nationally televised crucifixion.

I've said it many time before, doping in the pro peloton doesn't bother me as much as Lance Armstrong Doping bothers me. The reasons have been stated ad nausuem.

Like a true fanboy, you are making this about me and not the topic at hand.

I don't go around lying to cancer patients, and I don't take money meant for a foundation to fly my private jet around the world and to pay for my personal legal fees. Explain to me what other convicted or suspected doper has engaged in this type of activity.

Until you come out with proof that I do anything more heinous than state my position, spare me your sanctimonious hogwash. You're a joke.

 

[fatandfast]

Berzin I am often left wondering what you really think. I can't ever figure out why you and many others have found Lance's not getting caught to be your life's work. reading your posts you obviously know lots about cycling and it's history. All the guys caught and ignored or caught 2 or 3 times over the life of their career is just as foul but only Armstrong gets the nuke weapons rolled out. What gives? The cycling reader that you are, do you really think Lance was always blowing his horn as Capt.America? The writers chopped in every compliment available and he just accepted it. Compared to Cavendish, Lance is modest .I understand that he walked into the greatest man alive thing and lots of you guys want the bigtop to topple on his head but he had little to do with it's construction.
Somebody wrote up above about a positive test at 2001 TdSwiss. You are a fact man. because Tyler and Flandis said that makes it a fact? Even without all the overall history doesn't Pharmstrong have the simple math on his side? 1000's of negative tests mean nothing? It was a chain letter between race organizers and federations all over the world, if it's Lance let him go or toss the urine in the bin? I just don't see it

 

[ChrisE]

As for blatant hypocrites, I don't walk around with the anti-doping cross on my back getting flogged by the fanboys all the way to my nationally televised crucifixion.

I've said it many time before, doping in the pro peloton doesn't bother me as much as Lance Armstrong Doping bothers me. The reasons have been stated ad nausuem.

Like a true fanboy, you are making this about me and not the topic at hand.
I don't go around lying to cancer patients, and I don't take money meant for a foundation to fly my private jet around the world and to pay for my personal legal fees. Explain to me what other convicted or suspected doper has engaged in this type of activity.

Until you come out with proof that I do anything more heinous than state my position, spare me your sanctimonious hogwash. You're a joke.

Your damn right I am making this about you because your hypocrisy, while providing zero proof of what you are accusing me of, is the issue.

Hey Mods - why don't you give me 24 hour get out of jail free card and let me and this guy**** go at it.

 

[Velodude]

Had to laugh at this one. Asking someone to provide "evidence" in a Clinic thread where rumor, innuendo, and pulling stuff out of one's behind (aka totally making things up) are the norm is really weird.

Sorry for the intrusion. Carry on.

You can restrain your mirth.

There is an abundance of evidence in existence ranging from heresay to evidence of a character to be admissable that LA was given exclusive preferential treatment by the UCI that was not made available to other teams/riders.

 

[Polish]

I didn't say know, I said admit.

Styrbjorn, you might be confusing me with someone else?
I have admitted many times that I believe Lance doped.

Not that the doping had any real effect on his awesome palmares.
There are many many other attributes that led to that SUCCESS.
I can list them for you if you like....let me know thanks.

But Doping=FAIL as far as I am concerned.

 

[Stingray34]

Styrbjorn, you might be confusing me with someone else?
I have admitted many times that I believe Lance doped.

Not that the doping had any real effect on his awesome palmares.
There are many many other attributes that led to that SUCCESS.
I can list them for you if you like....let me know thanks.

But Doping=FAIL as far as I am concerned.

Following your impeccable logic, Lance is both a massive SUCCESS and a massive FAIL.

Tell me more, Wittgenstein.

Contradictions are all in the mind, innit?

 

[Velodude]

Styrbjorn, you might be confusing me with someone else?
I have admitted many times that I believe Lance doped.

Not that the doping had any real effect on his awesome palmares.
There are many many other attributes that led to that SUCCESS.
I can list them for you if you like....let me know thanks.

But Doping=FAIL as far as I am concerned.

If you concede the real interpretation of your non verbose, punchy past support that trainaholic Lance has been doping then how do you justify that he will be acquitted in these upcoming proceedings?

Evidence of LA doping is the grounds and matrix to all other prospective indictments.

 

[Polish]

Following your impeccable logic, Lance is both a massive SUCCESS and a massive FAIL.

Tell me more, Wittgenstein.

Contradictions are all in the mind, innit?

Massive Success, Minor Fail.
Hey, nobody is perfect lol.

But the sad part is all the numbnutz who believe "Doping Transformed Lance".
Sad and Damaging to the Sport.

The 195 Doses of EPO found in the home of the BMC soigneur/dealer were not for Cadel.
Cadel knows what it takes to win the Tour.
The doses were for numbnutz who believe the "transformation" crap.

 

[Stingray34]

Massive Success, Minor Fail.
Hey, nobody is perfect lol.

But the sad part is all the numbnutz who believe "Doping Transformed Lance".
Sad and Damaging to the Sport.

The 195 Doses of EPO found in the home of the BMC soigneur/dealer were not for Cadel.
Cadel knows what it takes to win the Tour.
The doses were for numbnutz who believe the "transformation" crap.

If EPO's useless and banned, why bother taking it? Risk-taking personality?

"I'm gonna inject some stuff that's completely useless and risk my legacy because of it and I don't care because I'm so cool and hard. Anyway, my girl friday Polish was swallow it."

 

[SpeedWay]

Your damn right I am making this about you because your hypocrisy, while providing zero proof of what you are accusing me of, is the issue.

Hey Mods - why don't you give me 24 hour get out of jail free card and let me and this guy**** go at it.

Stay classy, Chris. You're dealing with poster(s) who aren't mentally stable.

 

[Anonymous]

Had to laugh at this one. Asking someone to provide "evidence" in a Clinic thread where rumor, innuendo, and pulling stuff out of one's behind (aka totally making things up) are the norm is really weird.

Sorry for the intrusion. Carry on.

Had to laugh at this one. Somebody who claims not to have Armstrong chamois cream on his nose, yet rarely posts about anything that isn't some defense of Armstrong or an attack on someone who doesn't buy into his hero's bull****, comes in and makes another post in an Armstrong thread.

Sorry for the intrustion. Carry on.