Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Anonymous]

I could never be a juror. I have known pro cyclists and people in the business all have used drugs and or have known of drug use. I find Armstrong"s stance silly but legally defensible.
Armstrong used rugs but he will not be accused of that, the races and the UCI have already determined that he did not. I posted before about many who have him going down in flames for tax impropriety and I recently saw an HBO show that has people accused of the same thing but the numbers were in the billions vs millions in fraud money that Pharmstrong is to have swindled. His crimes are petty at best, and all the witnesses and people involved will look very small on the criminal scale if they go to court

Swindling millions = petty crime. Got it.

If just millions is petty then what about tens of millions? Hundreds of millions? When is it no longer petty? I'm curious.

 

[Cimacoppi48]

I could never be a juror. I have known pro cyclists and people in the business all have used drugs and or have known of drug use. I find Armstrong"s stance silly but legally defensible.
Armstrong used rugs but he will not be accused of that, the races and the UCI have already determined that he did not. I posted before about many who have him going down in flames for tax impropriety and I recently saw an HBO show that has people accused of the same thing but the numbers were in the billions vs millions in fraud money that Pharmstrong is to have swindled. His crimes are petty at best, and all the witnesses and people involved will look very small on the criminal scale if they go to court

I know of a situation where a guy is obtaining false social security numbers by using the birth records of dead children. He then has an accomplice open bank accounts using the fake ss number as his own. That leads to a bank account being opened in a dead person's name through which money flows. This was taken to the FBI who was not interested because the only amounts that the informant had proof of was less than $250,000.

 

[Velodude]

I know of a situation where a guy is obtaining false social security numbers by using the birth records of dead children. He then has an accomplice open bank accounts using the fake ss number as his own. That leads to a bank account being opened in a dead person's name through which money flows. This was taken to the FBI who was not interested because the only amounts that the informant had proof of was less than $250,000.

If one wants to look at numbers. How much did USPS contract to sponsor US Postal Cycling (Tailwind) with a no doping clause 2002-2004?

It would be north of $30 million.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

 

[mewmewmew13]

Doc, you and oldborn could liven up many of our sad and gloomy threads.
too bad oldborn is out for a vacation...

 

[Polish]

If one wants to look at numbers. How much did USPS contract to sponsor US Postal Cycling (Tailwind) with a no doping clause 2002-2004?

It would be north of $30 million.

The anti-doping clause was clear as to what would happen if a rider tested positive for doping - the USPS had the option to fire the rider. They did not HAVE TO fire the rider, but they had the option to. Ouch, tough clause.

Anyway, nothing in the anti-doping clause about reimbursing the USPS for the entire contract. Who in their right mind would sign off on a contract like that?

 

[MarkvW]

Quite a bit going on Barrus, quite a bit.

The US government has (apparently) decided to save some moolah and run their Grand Jury investigations right here in the clinic... that's right... right here... right now. (With apologies to Fatboy Slim).

To further save costs they have cobbled together a judge, jury and executioners from clinic members only.

Cimmacoppi48 is the presiding judge.

Velodude is the chief prosecutor, ably supported by Thoughtforfood.

Star Witness is RaceRadio, with the possibility that TheHog will be called on Tuesday?

LA has MarkvW leading the defence, Aphronesis has been asked to provide assistance but cannot be found?

The jury is where it starts to get interesting... a wider cross section of the American population you could not find in WalMart.

Polish has offered to be jury leader, the prosecution objected, to no avail, Cimmacoppi48 overruled. Polish is the leader. Quack Quack. There'll be no leaks, no crickets chirping, no mocking. SSDD.
Glenn Wilson
FatandFast
Cobblestoned
ChrisE
Granville57
Flicker
DrMaserati
Neworld
Ferminal
DirtyWorks

BPC, refused to give his real name to the court, preferred to use a different pseudonym for every day of the trial, hence was ruled ineligible to be empanelled on the jury.

Possibility of a hung jury?

FrancoisthePostman is the court stenographer... will not miss a word!

Can't defend Lance without a legally sufficient indictment. Without that indictment, Lance walks, and I'm livin' large on my gargantuan retainer!

 

[Velodude]

The anti-doping clause was clear as to what would happen if a rider tested positive for doping - the USPS had the option to fire the rider. They did not HAVE TO fire the rider, but they had the option to. Ouch, tough clause.

Anyway, nothing in the anti-doping clause about reimbursing the USPS for the entire contract. Who in their right mind would sign off on a contract like that?

I understand you are the foreman of the dream jury. If so, there will be some concern amongst jurors about your grasp of commercial fundamentals.

It is damages for breach of contract if one party does not comply with the terms of the contract and the other party suffers losses. The 2002-2004 contract between USPS and Tailwind had a specific clause inserted concerning "inappropriate drug conduct prejudicial to the Team, or the Postal Service, which is in violation of the Team rules or commonly accepted standards of morality"

Prospects for damages costs were made known when USPS expressed concerns over the medical waste/actovegan dumping in 2000 and stated “the Postal Service's concern about the deleterious impact upon the anticipated value of our sponsorship.”

After that 2000 incident developing concerns for USPS brand value they insisted upon a clause in the contract which imposed upon Tailwind to include a ‘morals turpitude and drug clause’ in the contract with each rider.

This is the clause in the USPS/Tailwind contract:

"The Company represents that each rider on the Team has a morals turpitude and drug clause that allows the Company to suspend or terminate the rider for cause which shall include items such as (1) conviction of a felony; (2) acts that require the Team to suspend or terminate the rider under the applicable rules of the Union Cycliste Internationale, the Federation Interationale du Cyclisme Professionel; the United States Professional Cycling Federation, Inc; the International Olympic Committee; the International Amateur Cycling Federation; the United States Cycling Federation and all other applicable governing organizations; (3) failure to pass drug or medical tests; (4) inappropriate drug conduct prejudicial to the Team, or the Postal Service, which is in violation of the Team rules or commonly accepted standards of morality; and (5) gross neglect of the rider's duty."

Item (4) is the dragnet clause.

Polish, Tailwind contractually "represented" to USPS that each rider in the team would have a contract providing for suspension or termination of services if any of clauses (1) to (4) were breached.

No riders were suspended or terminated citing those provisions notwithstanding the team conducted a PED program as subsequent evidence is disclosing.

Of course, Tailwind/US Postal defrauded the US Government by contracting sponsorship funds worth in excess of $30 million by, with premeditation, entering into conduct in breach of the contract that would have a damaging impact of USPS brand value.

Tailwind/US Postal are to be hoisted by their own petard.

 

[jackwolf]

Neil Young, immense musical talent, but managed to make a fool out of himself in just five words. Talking about the Native American Indians in Cortez the killer:

"Hate was just a legend"

Then he added two more lines for good measure:

"And the women all were beautiful
[...]
War was never known"

Also managed to get himself in the lyrics of Sweet Home Alabama, one of the great songs of the last century:

"I hope Neil Young will remember
Southern man don't need him around"

Respect for him, though: he wrote a few musical masterpieces.[/QUOTE]

Yep, like Cortez. They are just song lyrics you know not a statement of fact so don't see why that makes him a fool.

And I suspect you know fine well why he is named in SHA. Nothing sinister there.

And since this is the Clinic my tenuous link of any relevance is that did you know that Cortez was actually banned in Spain

When you put the names Cortez and Moctezuma and other actual facts in the song, it does become an attempted statement of fact. Now, according to Wikipedia:

"The song was banned in Spain under Francisco Franco, according to Young's notes for the album Decade. Young's claim is dubious since Franco was on his death bed on Nov. 10, 1975, the date the song was released. Franco died on Nov. 20, 1975 after a long illness during which he was incapacitated."

Sounds to me like he was seeking some attention he never got. It's refreshing to come across a fanboy from a tribe other than Armstrong's once in a while, though.

EDIT: Two masterpieces: Harvest Moon and Out on the Weekend. Enjoy.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

Very interesting, but back on topic, please.

Susan

 

[jackwolf]

Very interesting, but back on topic, please.

Susan

My apologies.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Quite a bit going on Barrus, quite a bit.

The US government has (apparently) decided to save some moolah and run their Grand Jury investigations right here in the clinic... that's right... right here... right now. (With apologies to Fatboy Slim).

To further save costs they have cobbled together a judge, jury and executioners from clinic members only.

Susan is the presiding judge.

Velodude is the chief prosecutor, ably supported by Thoughtforfood.

Star Witness is RaceRadio, with the possibility that TheHog will be called on Tuesday?

LA has MarkvW leading the defence, Aphronesis has been asked to provide assistance but cannot be found?

The jury is where it starts to get interesting... a wider cross section of the American population you could not find in WalMart.

Polish has offered to be jury leader, the prosecution objected, to no avail, Cimmacoppi48 overruled. Polish is the leader. Quack Quack. There'll be no leaks, no crickets chirping, no mocking. SSDD.
Glenn Wilson
FatandFast
Cobblestoned
ChrisE
Granville57
Flicker
DrMaserati
Neworld
Ferminal
DirtyWorks

BPC, refused to give his real name to the court, preferred to use a different pseudonym for every day of the trial, hence was ruled ineligible to be empanelled on the jury.

Possibility of a hung jury?

FrancoisthePostman is the court stenographer... will not miss a word!

Corrected that for you.

 

[MarkvW]

c

USPS Contract materials can be found at http://insider.espn.go.com/insider/blog?name=assael_shaun&id=6022155.

 

[Polish]

Tailwind/US Postal are to be hoisted by their own petard.

Velodude, it is time to change the "are to be" to "why weren't they".
Why weren't they hoisted? That is the new discussion.
There comes a time when the "search for survivors" becomes a "recovery of bodies". That time is upon us. 20+ months, let it go.

Anyway, why WEREN'T they hoisted?
I guess there are a couple reasons. Here is the contract FYI:

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/mag/blog/2011/thefile/armstrong/morals_big.jpg

First, note that the Company is named as Mr Thomas Weisel.
Lance is named as a Team rider.

Second, it is very common to have doping in cycling. Everyone knows it know, and it was known back when this clause was put in. It is almost expected that there will be doping shenanigans going on.

And the doping clause spells out what needs to be done when a rider is "found guilty"

allows the Company to suspend or terminate within 30 days

It does not matter if there was doping going on - that is almost expected.
What matters is if the guilty rider was fired by Mr Weisel.

But no riders were found guilty.
No evidence that Mr weisel knew.
Did Floyd or Tyler ever go to Weisel rasing the flag?
Yes, Floyd and Tyler should have been fired. In hindsight we can see that.
But at least Weisel did not rehire them.

(Shame though. Floyd as part ShackAttack would have been AWESOME.
Big mistake not rehiring him imo. Big Mistake. 2009 TdF would have turned out much different oh well. I've have moved on. No biggie.)

There are many other reasons why Lance was not hoisted.
But we will save those for other posts lol.

 

[spetsa]

Velodude, it is time to change the "are to be" to "why weren't they".
Why weren't they hoisted? That is the new discussion.
There comes a time when the "search for survivors" becomes a "recovery of bodies". That time is upon us. 20+ months, let it go.

Anyway, why WEREN'T they hoisted?
I guess there are a couple reasons. Here is the contract FYI:

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/mag/blog/2011/thefile/armstrong/morals_big.jpg

First, note that the Company is named as Mr Thomas Weisel.
Lance is named as a Team rider.
Second, it is very common to have doping in cycling. Everyone knows it know, and it was known back when this clause was put in. It is almost expected that there will be doping shenanigans going on.

And the doping clause spells out what needs to be done when a rider is "found guilty"

allows the Company to suspend or terminate within 30 days

It does not matter if there was doping going on - that is almost expected.
What matters is if the guilty rider was fired by Mr Weisel.

But no riders were found guilty.
No evidence that Mr weisel knew.
Did Floyd or Tyler ever go to Weisel rasing the flag?
Yes, Floyd and Tyler should have been fired. In hindsight we can see that.
But at least Weisel did not rehire them.

(Shame though. Floyd as part ShackAttack would have been AWESOME.
Big mistake not rehiring him imo. Big Mistake. 2009 TdF would have turned out much different oh well. I've have moved on. No biggie.)

There are many other reasons why Lance was not hoisted.
But we will save those for other posts lol.

Nice try The company being "named" and a member of management, namely being.... are two very different statements. Yours being an outright lie.

 

[Velodude]

Velodude, it is time to change the "are to be" to "why weren't they".
Why weren't they hoisted? That is the new discussion.
There comes a time when the "search for survivors" becomes a "recovery of bodies". That time is upon us. 20+ months, let it go.

Anyway, why WEREN'T they hoisted?
I guess there are a couple reasons. Here is the contract FYI:

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/mag/blog/2011/thefile/armstrong/morals_big.jpg

First, note that the Company is named as Mr Thomas Weisel.
Lance is named as a Team rider.

Second, it is very common to have doping in cycling. Everyone knows it know, and it was known back when this clause was put in. It is almost expected that there will be doping shenanigans going on.

And the doping clause spells out what needs to be done when a rider is "found guilty"

allows the Company to suspend or terminate within 30 days

It does not matter if there was doping going on - that is almost expected.
What matters is if the guilty rider was fired by Mr Weisel.

But no riders were found guilty.
No evidence that Mr weisel knew.
Did Floyd or Tyler ever go to Weisel rasing the flag?
Yes, Floyd and Tyler should have been fired. In hindsight we can see that.
But at least Weisel did not rehire them.

(Shame though. Floyd as part ShackAttack would have been AWESOME.
Big mistake not rehiring him imo. Big Mistake. 2009 TdF would have turned out much different oh well. I've have moved on. No biggie.)

There are many other reasons why Lance was not hoisted.
But we will save those for other posts lol.

Oh, you poor deranged sycophant

 

[MarkvW]

Velodude, it is time to change the "are to be" to "why weren't they".
Why weren't they hoisted? That is the new discussion.
There comes a time when the "search for survivors" becomes a "recovery of bodies". That time is upon us. 20+ months, let it go.

Anyway, why WEREN'T they hoisted?
I guess there are a couple reasons. Here is the contract FYI:

http://assets.espn.go.com/i/mag/blog/2011/thefile/armstrong/morals_big.jpg

First, note that the Company is named as Mr Thomas Weisel.
Lance is named as a Team rider.

Second, it is very common to have doping in cycling. Everyone knows it know, and it was known back when this clause was put in. It is almost expected that there will be doping shenanigans going on.

And the doping clause spells out what needs to be done when a rider is "found guilty"

allows the Company to suspend or terminate within 30 days

It does not matter if there was doping going on - that is almost expected.
What matters is if the guilty rider was fired by Mr Weisel.

But no riders were found guilty.
No evidence that Mr weisel knew.
Did Floyd or Tyler ever go to Weisel rasing the flag?
Yes, Floyd and Tyler should have been fired. In hindsight we can see that.
But at least Weisel did not rehire them.

(Shame though. Floyd as part ShackAttack would have been AWESOME.
Big mistake not rehiring him imo. Big Mistake. 2009 TdF would have turned out much different oh well. I've have moved on. No biggie.)

There are many other reasons why Lance was not hoisted.
But we will save those for other posts lol.

I didn't see "Tailwind" as a party to the USPS contract. The contracting party is DFP Cycling, LLC. Was Lance a member or director of DFP Cycling, LLC? How would the feds prove that DFP Cycling entered into the contract with the full intention of doping its riders? How would the feds prove that Lance conspired with DFP Cycling (or its principals) to do that?

It's not so easy. Maybe that's one reason many months have passed without an indictment. Lance has obviously insulated himself. Remains to be seen whether the feds can penetrate through the insulation.

Anybody know what's up with DFP Cycling, LLC? Is it a subsidiary of Tailwind?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I didn't see "Tailwind" as a party to the USPS contract. The contracting party is DFP Cycling, LLC. Was Lance a member or director of DFP Cycling, LLC? How would the feds prove that DFP Cycling entered into the contract with the full intention of doping its riders? How would the feds prove that Lance conspired with DFP Cycling (or its principals) to do that?

It's not so easy. Maybe that's one reason many months have passed without an indictment. Lance has obviously insulated himself. Remains to be seen whether the feds can penetrate through the insulation.

Anybody know what's up with DFP Cycling, LLC? Is it a subsidiary of Tailwind?

Which document are you looking at??
The one linked mentions neither DFP or Tailwind?

Tailwind Sports was the new name for Disson Furst - this happened in 2001.

 

[thehog]

I didn't see "Tailwind" as a party to the USPS contract. The contracting party is DFP Cycling, LLC. Was Lance a member or director of DFP Cycling, LLC? How would the feds prove that DFP Cycling entered into the contract with the full intention of doping its riders? How would the feds prove that Lance conspired with DFP Cycling (or its principals) to do that?

Anybody know what's up with DFP Cycling, LLC? Is it a subsidiary of Tailwind?

http://www.motorsport.com/business/news/busch-disson-furst-partners-changes-name-to-tailwind-sports/

 

[thehog]

Which document are you looking at??
The one linked mentions neither DFP or Tailwind?

Tailwind Sports was the new name for Disson Furst - this happened in 2001.

Scary & NASCAR!!

Tailwind Sports owns and manages the U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team, featuring Lance Armstrong, who won the last two Tour de France races. The motorsports division has created and oversees several national marketing programs, including the Nestle Nesquik Racing Team, which won the 2000 NASCAR Busch Series Championship and the Chef Boyardee sponsorship of Joe Gibbs Racing, which won the NASCAR Winston Cup Championship in year 2000.

"Tailwind Sports will build on the tremendous success we have already achieved in motorsports and cycling," said Managing Director Cindy Sisson. "There is great synergy between these two areas and they will be the foundation for the company's future growth."

Tailwind Sports will be led by three sports marketing veterans and the founders of Tailwind Sports' predecessor DFP: Allen Furst, its Managing Director; Cindy Sisson, its Managing Director who will oversee the motorsports division; and Mark Gorski, its new CEO. The company's Board of Directors, giving full support to the new direction of the company, includes Thomas Weisel, Harvey Schiller, Terry Lee, Jody Gessow, Emily Pottruck, and Joseph Vittoria.

"By fine-tuning the strategic direction of Tailwind Sports, we will enhance our ability to be innovators and leaders in cycling and motorsports," said Thomas Weisel, Chairman of the Board, as well as Chairman and CEO of Thomas Weisel Partners. "These changes were a collective decision among all partners and the Board of Directors. We all believe the company is now positioned to take advantage of the unique opportunities ahead in the sports industry."

 

[MarkvW]

Which document are you looking at??
The one linked mentions neither DFP or Tailwind?

Tailwind Sports was the new name for Disson Furst - this happened in 2001.

Scary & NASCAR!!

Tailwind Sports owns and manages the U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team, featuring Lance Armstrong, who won the last two Tour de France races. The motorsports division has created and oversees several national marketing programs, including the Nestle Nesquik Racing Team, which won the 2000 NASCAR Busch Series Championship and the Chef Boyardee sponsorship of Joe Gibbs Racing, which won the NASCAR Winston Cup Championship in year 2000.

"Tailwind Sports will build on the tremendous success we have already achieved in motorsports and cycling," said Managing Director Cindy Sisson. "There is great synergy between these two areas and they will be the foundation for the company's future growth."

Tailwind Sports will be led by three sports marketing veterans and the founders of Tailwind Sports' predecessor DFP: Allen Furst, its Managing Director; Cindy Sisson, its Managing Director who will oversee the motorsports division; and Mark Gorski, its new CEO. The company's Board of Directors, giving full support to the new direction of the company, includes Thomas Weisel, Harvey Schiller, Terry Lee, Jody Gessow, Emily Pottruck, and Joseph Vittoria.

"By fine-tuning the strategic direction of Tailwind Sports, we will enhance our ability to be innovators and leaders in cycling and motorsports," said Thomas Weisel, Chairman of the Board, as well as Chairman and CEO of Thomas Weisel Partners. "These changes were a collective decision among all partners and the Board of Directors. We all believe the company is now positioned to take advantage of the unique opportunities ahead in the sports industry."

Ah, I get it. DFP is Tailwind's predecessor in interest. So they be the same thing.

 

[MarkvW]

It appears that DFP/Tailwind cut its last big contract with USPS in 2000 (the one with doping and morals clauses). My ref is a link in the ESPN article I posted a link to earlier today. The earliest that the Clinic has marked Lance as a director of DFP/Tailwind is 2002. There doesn't appear to be any indication that Lance was a director when the USPS contract was signed.

Is that inaccurate?

 

[Polish]

Ah, I get it. DFP is Tailwind's predecessor in interest. So they be the same thing.

And nowhere is Lance listed as a director.
Just a rider. Until October 2005.

That could be the reason, one of the reasons, that Lance was not indicted?

Also MarkvW, I noticed that you said an investigation could last a Decade or more several posts back. Mentioning the DB Cooper case lol. I see what you are doing Lengthening the amount of time you can stay on your imaginary retainer here. Keeping hopes alive. Keeping people in denial.

Sure, a bit of denial is natural. Healthy part of grieving.
But not being in denial for a decade yikes.
That is not healthy.

Although, Far be it from me to burst any bubbles.
I do not want to do that.
1999 positives....sure whatever.
$500,000 bribe...whatever you say.
Moors or Moops...I will accept either answer.
But c'mon - 10 years? Let it go guys.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It appears that DFP/Tailwind cut its last big contract with USPS in 2000 (the one with doping and morals clauses). My ref is a link in the ESPN article I posted a link to earlier today. The earliest that the Clinic has marked Lance as a director of DFP/Tailwind is 2002. There doesn't appear to be any indication that Lance was a director when the USPS contract was signed.

Is that inaccurate?

I checked your posts today - where have you made any link to ESPN?


No, not inaccurate, just irrelevant.
Why would it matter when USPS updated or amended a contract to a Federal investigation being done by the FDA?

 

[ChrisE]

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