Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Microchip]

Magical thinking is exactly what cult members are indoctrinated with, and what they must engage in on a daily basis lest their enthusiasm wane.

The type of magical thinking that makes plausible the feat of Armstrong becoming the greatest stage racer in the world post-cancer through sheer force of will, an iron determination and hard work.

The magical thinking that all the riders who left US Postal and were caught doping on other teams was nothing more than an unfortunate coincidence.

This type of thinking will get you disqualified as a juror, based on Q:50 & 62!!

 

[MarkvW]

Ah, Mark - I just told you.
I know you have this hope that this is all magically going to go away. It won't.

Whatever. You have no idea.

 

[MarkvW]

Magical thinking is exactly what cult members are indoctrinated with, and what they must engage in on a daily basis lest their enthusiasm wane.

The type of magical thinking that makes plausible the feat of Armstrong becoming the greatest stage racer in the world post-cancer through sheer force of will, an iron determination and hard work.

The magical thinking that all the riders who left US Postal and were caught doping on other teams was nothing more than an unfortunate coincidence.

The Clinic is one of the few places left where Liestrong cult members can gesticulate vociferously to their heart's content about how desperately they want to hold on to their hero.

And, like true fanatics, they are not satisfied in believing. They must either make others feel the same way or spend every waking moment discrediting those who do not.

They have nothing left but to call other people names in a vain attempt to keep hope alive, as exhibited by the comment below-

This is a strawman argument.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Whatever. You have no idea.

Oh but I have Mark, a very good idea.

You agree that LA doped, right? And you agree there is an ongoing investigation led by the FDA?

What you continually overlook is the role of USADA. We know that they have been involved from the start and are privy to much of the investigation so even if the Fed case doesn't come through (big if) then USADA will start proceedings against the riders identified.

 

[Berzin]

Whatever. You have no idea.

The evidence against Armstrong isn't conclusive because we are not privy to the testimony that's been collected so far, nor the evidence the various international law enforcement agencies across the US and Western Europe have collected.

It is foolish to consider that after all of this, Armstrong will come out on the other side clean as whistle.

It is high time you and your ilk get it through your skulls that excuses and obfuscation will no longer suit your purposes of defending the indefensible.

This is a strawman argument.

All you are doing is engaging in a most insincere and hypocritical type of pseudo-intellectual dogma that lacks critical thinking and the free intellectual will that would allow you the freedom to question that which not true.

Again, you are inducting magical thinking as an intellectual premise. Not only is it a bad starting point, it will only lead you to the type of empty rhetoric you are engaging in right now.

This isn't hate. This is logic versus the rhetoric of idolatry. You pidgeonhole yourself with this line of reasoning.

It only allows you to question the posters who point these contradictions out to you and not the sheer physiological improbabilities of the victories of your hero.

For all his faults and limitations, Armstrong's genius lies in his cynicism. He knew if he built a brand name around cancer survivorship he will have a built-in army of worshipers that will support him in the court of public opinion when things got tight.

Discrediting Landis, Walsh, Kimmage, and humiliating the likes of Simeoni (made more dispicalbe by the fact that it was watched by millions of viewers worldwide) was never going to knock the halo off his head and he knew it.

He could lie to his flock about his comeback (Dr. Catlin's drug testing protocols, the whole "this one's for you" campaign) his appearance fee money, the team-wide doping, and you guys bought it all.

When Lemond questioned his association with Dr. Ferrari, the comments he received were so repulsive it made me think "Why would people go to such lengths to discredit anyone who dares doubt him?" I receive my answer every day when I read what posters like you write.

You are so desperate for a hero to believe in you're willing to swallow anything but the truth.

Armstrong's one mistake was not taking care of Landis. All he had to do was land him a job and this investigation may never have happened.

But he calculated, cynically and wrongly, that Landis had done enough to discredit himself in the court of public opinion that he would be viewed as nothing more than a crackpot with an axe to grind.

That was one reckless gamble that didn't pay off for him, and one that will cost him dearly.

 

[Velodude]

This is a strawman argument.

???????

Strawman definition:

An argument or opponent set up so as to be easily refuted.

If it is a strawman argument why have your not done a demolition job on Berzin's post to prove he has created a strawman?

 

[180mmCrank]

Please stick to the discussion of the topic and refrain from comments about other posters.

Cheers

 

[skippy]

First a Happy New Year wish to Francois the Postman and those that helped sort out this thread in their personal time , it seems that your efforts may have been in vain ?

The egos that are camped out here espousing their bile are beyond a joke , they need a holiday , perhaps enforced !

May I suggest that as of today each of these “ jokers /pranksters ” be required to state as they enter each post whether they support or choose to denigrate their victim and the reasons for choosing their position ! By doing this and allowing them one posting each week until the Moderators see fit , we the suffering viewers will gain some relief from the UNWARRANTED BILE that a very few post here . As one of the many thousands visiting Cycling News Forum I have to wade knee deep in sewage and through petty disputes to gain ANY NEWS that will be posted to this thread !

Of course the Name of the Thread could be changed also to “ Spew Garbage ! ” or “ Bile deposits” or whatever BUT it appears that the thread is being “ Hijacked ” to serve as a “ We are victims of our imaginary thoughts on Lance’s circumstances ”!

Perhaps buried somewhere under the tons of Garbage there may be some redeeming reason for some to “ hate ” Lance but until it is brought back into the daylight , we the suffering viewer/reader are at a loss to understand why we should be the victims of a few !

To those that continue to waste our time with their petty trivia , my comment :.....

To those like me , suffering through this debacle , my best wishes for a more enjoyable experience in the New Year !

 

[thehog]

Rape, murder etc. the crime is obvious and requires little explanation. Armstrong's crimes are subtle and hidden behind the guise of "winning". It provides a valuable lesson to many. We are not ranking crimes as you imply.

If this forum is a "circle jerk" as you suggest then are you not partipating in said activity? Or are you above all this and only post outside the defined circle jerk threshholds? Don't be so silly.

I'm glad you find others thoughts interesting, even fascinating. Which leads me to believe its not the "circle jerk" as you described. Careful of the contradiction. Gets you every time.

No one here is determining the case of the People vs. Armstrong. We're discussing the various intricacies of the man, the story and the probable upcoming trial. To not discuss and snuff out free speech would be un-American. If a person enjoys the celebration of their victories with the public then they shall stand in front of the same group and prepare to be judged when it is found they cheated. Not unfair.

Thanks Hog. Excellent post.

 

[pig pen]

I don't hate him at all. He's a interesting character to examine.

I think he has shown us all a wonderful exhibition of "risk vs reward" and the inner traits of human beings.

Without him I'd have no example to show my children of behavior to avoid. No reward is great enough to risk the enviable which is about to occur. The deeper he dug the deeper he'll have to drag himself out of. It's a compelling true life fable of how not to live your life.

The worst fate to come is not a jail term but ones own meeting with your true self.

I really do wonder when Armstrong is alone what his private thoughts are....

It seems Armstrong is a much more complex character than some here might imagine. As far as being an example for children who knows? Speaking with my own children, they have formulated their own opinions about Armstrong and sports/sporting "heroes", which I will not debate. Who's to argue with a "tween-ager who has his mind made up? Of course next week they will have a totally new opinion, which I will need to respect humbly, once again.

 

[Hugh Januss]

First a Happy New Year wish to Francois the Postman and those that helped sort out this thread in their personal time , it seems that your efforts may have been in vain ?

The egos that are camped out here espousing their bile are beyond a joke , they need a holiday , perhaps enforced !

May I suggest that as of today each of these “ jokers /pranksters ” be required to state as they enter each post whether they support or choose to denigrate their victim and the reasons for choosing their position ! By doing this and allowing them one posting each week until the Moderators see fit , we the suffering viewers will gain some relief from the UNWARRANTED BILE that a very few post here . As one of the many thousands visiting Cycling News Forum I have to wade knee deep in sewage and through petty disputes to gain ANY NEWS that will be posted to this thread !

Of course the Name of the Thread could be changed also to “ Spew Garbage ! ” or “ Bile deposits” or whatever BUT it appears that the thread is being “ Hijacked ” to serve as a “ We are victims of our imaginary thoughts on Lance’s circumstances ”!

Perhaps buried somewhere under the tons of Garbage there may be some redeeming reason for some to “ hate ” Lance but until it is brought back into the daylight , we the suffering viewer/reader are at a loss to understand why we should be the victims of a few !

To those that continue to waste our time with their petty trivia , my comment :.....

To those like me , suffering through this debacle , my best wishes for a more enjoyable experience in the New Year !

Huh? WTF are you blathering on about? If you are that worried about "wasting time" why bother reading what is posted here?

 

[Berzin]

Huh? WTF are you blathering on about? If you are that worried about "wasting time" why bother reading what is posted here?

I'll tell you why. When a person attempts to argue an indefensible premise, the only thing they have to fall back on is obfuscation, personal attacks and outright jibberish in lieu of actual facts.

 

[Anonymous]

First a Happy New Year wish to Francois the Postman and those that helped sort out this thread in their personal time , it seems that your efforts may have been in vain ?

The egos that are camped out here espousing their bile are beyond a joke , they need a holiday , perhaps enforced !

May I suggest that as of today each of these “ jokers /pranksters ” be required to state as they enter each post whether they support or choose to denigrate their victim and the reasons for choosing their position ! By doing this and allowing them one posting each week until the Moderators see fit , we the suffering viewers will gain some relief from the UNWARRANTED BILE that a very few post here . As one of the many thousands visiting Cycling News Forum I have to wade knee deep in sewage and through petty disputes to gain ANY NEWS that will be posted to this thread !

Of course the Name of the Thread could be changed also to “ Spew Garbage ! ” or “ Bile deposits” or whatever BUT it appears that the thread is being “ Hijacked ” to serve as a “ We are victims of our imaginary thoughts on Lance’s circumstances ”!

Perhaps buried somewhere under the tons of Garbage there may be some redeeming reason for some to “ hate ” Lance but until it is brought back into the daylight , we the suffering viewer/reader are at a loss to understand why we should be the victims of a few !

To those that continue to waste our time with their petty trivia , my comment :.....

To those like me , suffering through this debacle , my best wishes for a more enjoyable experience in the New Year !

You haven't figured out the internets very well. There is a simple way to avoid reading a thread. When you see that little finger pointy thing hovering over some words, if you don't click the left mouse button or right click and choose open, you will not be exposed to words you do not want to see.

You're welcome!

 

[MarkvW]

Oh but I have Mark, a very good idea.

You agree that LA doped, right? And you agree there is an ongoing investigation led by the FDA?

What you continually overlook is the role of USADA. We know that they have been involved from the start and are privy to much of the investigation so even if the Fed case doesn't come through (big if) then USADA will start proceedings against the riders identified.

Whatever, dude.

 

[Berzin]

Whatever, dude.

The retort of a champion debater, well-versed in the Socratic Method.

 

[jackwolf]

[...] Of course next week they will have a totally new opinion, which I will need to respect humbly, once again.

If they have a totally different opinion next week, either they are totally wrong now or they'll be totally wrong next week. Perhaps it's them that should be humble then.

 

[thehog]

You haven't figured out the internets very well. There is a simple way to avoid reading a thread. When you see that little finger pointy thing hovering over some words, if you don't click the left mouse button or right click and choose open, you will not be exposed to words you do not want to see.

You're welcome!

Unless if you use a Mac there is no right button on the mouse... just one button...

But the point remains.

 

[doolols]

Let's face it - there have been few 'new' facts posted here for weeks. So, anyone wanting "news" would be well advised to look elsewhere. Maybe on the news section of the main site:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news

However, if you're looking for conjecture, rampant partiality and inter-member bickering, this is the best place on the 'net.

Does anyone seriously think that if the GJ come up with nothing, the USADA is going to investigate their all-American hero?

 

[Race Radio]

Whatever. You have no idea.

You continue to maintain that there will be no charges. That we have "No Idea"

There is evidence of trafficking, distribution, witness tampering, bribes to foreign officials etc......are the Feds just going to ignore this? Please inform us, the people with no idea, why Wonderboy will walk. Why has he spent over $3,000,000 in legal fees if he has nothing to worry about? Does Lance have "No Idea"?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The retort of a champion debater, well-versed in the Socratic Method.

Actually, Marks apathetic response could be viewed as progress - he might have moved on a stage.

7 stages of grief:
1. Shock & Denial
2. Pain & Guilt
3. Anger & Bargaining
4. Depression, Reflection & Loneliness
5. The Upward Turn
6. Reconstruction & Working Through
7. Acceptance & Hope

...... I am not sure where Skippy is though.

Let's face it - there have been few 'new' facts posted here for weeks. So, anyone wanting "news" would be well advised to look elsewhere. Maybe on the news section of the main site:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news

However, if you're looking for conjecture, rampant partiality and inter-member bickering, this is the best place on the 'net.

Does anyone seriously think that if the GJ come up with nothing, the USADA is going to investigate their all-American hero?

USADA are already investigating - I assume you mean will they pursue the case? Well, they had no problem going after American 'Hero' Marion Jones.

Also this is USADAs Tygart, talking about Novitzky and sport in general:

"Without Jeff and the many other dedicated law enforcement agents out there enforcing these important federal laws, the promise of sport fails our kids," he said.

A moment later, he added, "Our sports are the fabric of our American way of life. They teach us all that dedication, character, hard work, playing fair can lead to fulfillment and accomplishment. ... We do not tolerate this type of corruption and fraud in business, academia or other important institutions. Why should we accept it in sports?

"The answer is clear we should not," Tygart said.

 

[Polish]

You continue to maintain that there will be no charges. That we have "No Idea"

There is evidence of trafficking, distribution, witness tampering, bribes to foreign officials etc......are the Feds just going to ignore this? Please inform us, the people with no idea, why Wonderboy will walk. Why has he spent over $3,000,000 in legal fees if he has nothing to worry about? Does Lance have "No Idea"?

Evidence of trafficking, distribution, witness tampering and bribes etc?
I do not think so. If there WAS evidence, Lance would have been indicted.
The FACT that Lance was not indicted shows there was no evidence. Sorry.

And why has Lance spent money on lawyers?
Because of Floyd and the WitchHunt SmearJob that ensued.
SI/WSJ/ESPN/SundayTimes/AP/60Mins/ETC/ETC/ETC/
Lance's lawyers put an END to that.

RR, why do you continue to ask such simple questions? You really need to let it go. Its time to move on. 10 years of hating Lance. Let it go. Move on.

I used to be a hater too you know. Until I took an arrow to the knee. From the Quiver of Awesomeness.

 

[MarkvW]

You continue to maintain that there will be no charges. That we have "No Idea"

There is evidence of trafficking, distribution, witness tampering, bribes to foreign officials etc......are the Feds just going to ignore this? Please inform us, the people with no idea, why Wonderboy will walk. Why has he spent over $3,000,000 in legal fees if he has nothing to worry about? Does Lance have "No Idea"?

You're very funny.

 

[Polish]

I'll tell you why. When a person attempts to argue an indefensible premise, the only thing they have to fall back on is obfuscation, personal attacks and outright jibberish in lieu of actual facts.

Well, we can always fall back on Indiana Jones Boulder Metaphors.
Indiana evaded the Boulder and was more awesome for the feat.

Or magical stories about transformations or leveling up.
Lance evolving from a Squirtle into a Wartortle.

 

[palmerq]

Or magical stories about transformations or leveling up.
Lance evolving from a Squirtle into a Wartortle.

you might be right but lance could have a problem if novitzky evolves into a venosaur and uses grass knot.... it's super effective :S

 

[Race Radio]

You're very funny.

Thanks, I aim to entertain

...but back to the question, why will Armstrong not be charged? What are we missing? Why do we have "No Idea"?