Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Dr. Maserati]

My mistake, I thought he also won in '99. I see a huge difference between two dopers in a ****ing match and two women who tried to do the right thing. They spoke up and got slapped down, they tried to clean up the sport. Simeoni spoke up when he lost his supply and was jealous in likelihood.

1999 - No, that was Salvatore 'Toto' Commesso.

Certainly there is a huge difference between Simeoni and Betsy or EOR - but all suffered at Armstrongs
Simeoni didn't "lose his supply", he stopped working with Ferrari and you think there are no other Doctors in Italy he could have gone to if he wanted?
Simeoni was questioned and decided to tell the truth which is why Armstrong chased him down.

 

[MarkvW]

I am sorry if you do not understand pro sports, business, and business in general.
Lance did great for his teams and US cycling, end of story!~

I note that you did not say that Lance did great for his investors. I've read that some of those who invested with Lance are extremely dissatisfied with the experience.

 

[bigloco]

So the fact that this guy ruled the biggest cycling event/race in the world for 7 years on a PED program that no one else had access to using USPostal dollars is 'meh' for you. What do you think everyone else trying to win the tour is modelling their success on? Water and ice vests? As for 'mafia drug boss', never heard that! but bully boy team boss, now you're talking.

Libertarians must be pretty ****ed of with a guy like Gunderson and his actions against Simeoni, Betsy, Frankie, Emma O'Reilly, journalists, kimmage, Walsh, former teams mates, etc...square that circle....

I don't doubt the guy doped, but "facts" for me usually include some involvement of scientific method...and unless I'm really behind the times, and I may well be, I've seen nothing but speculation on LA's ped use. Maybe he was using hemassist (or whatever the not-so-conventional wisdom dictates) and no one else had access to it, but its still kind of a meh.

That doesn't mean it has no interest to me...hell i DO read the clinic.

The mafia boss quip was sort of a tongue in cheek reference directed towards how they were going to get around the statute of limitations.

lastly, as a card carrying libertarian, I believe in virtually unlimited freedom of speech and should Armstrong have crossed the line into libelous talk, then I'm sure a lawsuit could have sorted the matter out. Until that happens I guess its a non issue.

 

[bigloco]

TMI, man! We only need to know if your with the lance-haters or against the lance-haters here in the clinic. The general politics thread is that way -->*


*where you'll find libertarian ninety-five rpm fighting for his virtual life as I type!

I'm with neither! I just posted because i'm mildly contrarian and the alternatives to the pitchfork and torch carrying crowd were, for awhile, embodied in flicker and polish...

 

[bigloco]

I can respect an opinion like yours. I find his treatment of people like Betsy Andreau, Simeoni, Bassons, Tex Pat, and others to put him into scumbag territory myself, but I can respect that you don't. I do believe however that he will be proven to be the scumbag you are not sure he is, but who knows?

He's undoubtedly an A###ole, but my standard of scumbag is quite high!

I don't really follow the personal drama that erupts...But I remember the Simeoni situation well...and I'll admit, I smiled at the time

 

[Anonymous]

He's undoubtedly an A###ole, but my standard of scumbag is quite high!

I don't really follow the personal drama that erupts...But I remember the Simeoni situation well...and I'll admit, I smiled at the time

For me, it was the moment that I said "A guy who is clean would have no reason to treat someone like that. Only someone who is hiding something acts like that." Generally, people much angrier about people who tell the truth about them than they do people who lie.

 

[Elagabalus]

...however, he is making the correct moves for a future in politics, if that is his wishes.

Not unless he gets a personality transplant. He's way too prickly to have any career in politics (not unlike that other famous Texan A. Ross Perot). If he decides to run in years hence the press will be saying to themselves "we haven't had this much fun ridiculing and destroying someones political aspirations since Donald Trump!"

 

[flicker]

Check out the newest Republican Presidential candidate, Newt.
http://theweek.com/article/index/205947/newt-gingrich-the-5-juiciest-details-from-his-ex-wife

 

[flicker]

You really have to understand, that there is forgiveness and redemption for men like Lance Armstrong (and Newt Gingrich.)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/...ll-newt-gingrich-parody-affairs_n_834417.html

 

[Oldman]

Being on the clinic it is realized that this a spurned fan-boys sight.
To get perspective on Armstrong and a prosecution, please revert to Martha Stuart(insider trading) Bill and Hillary Clinton(Whitewater) banking scandal, LBJ (protecting oil interests, involving the US in an illegal war), and see Running with Arnold(association with Nazis, sexism, lying habitually etc.)

In the next few years, Lance may have a little problem, however, he is making the correct moves for a future in politics, if that is his wishes.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps not in elective politics. That felony that's stalking him could be an obstacle even with his level of Excellence.

 

[D-Queued]

Probably anyone who smokes, works with toxic material does illegal drugs, doesn't get breast screened, colonscopy. Anyone who works with toxic dusts, lead mines, lives near uranium mines, etc.......

Hey flick, do you think that this lady is generating awareness for cancer? Or, will Livestrong sue her for anti-trust, or some sort of a copyright or trademark violation on "cancer"?

Cancer-stricken mom fights to keep custody of kids

Unfortunately she doesn't appear to be a felon. Nor does she get an all expenses paid private jet. Thus, she may not make a very good spokesperson for cancer awareness.

Dave.

 

[python]

In a sense you are right but as I consistenly point out, Lance is not just another athlete like the guys you listed or Merckx or Contador or whoever. Lance represents something else entirely, a cancer survivor, if Lance were just another athlete, he would have had nowhere near the same riches, fame, leeway etc. He is not even the most successful 4-5 cyclists of all time but he dwarfs all other cyclists in terms of fame, not because of his athletic success but because of his STORY.

Its how he used that story to cheat, bully and manipulate his way to the top that is the biggest fraud and grinds with so many people. ItS not just about the doping. Lance allowed himself and actively promoted a certain image of himself as the survivor, the great hero, the cleaner than thou cyclist.

Any guy who starts of from the point of 'I survived cancer so no way would I put drugs in my body' is putting himself on an almighty pedestal and the thing is so many people knew he was doped to the gills from the start. The French for a start, the likes of Kimmage, Walsh. By 2004 and the Simeoni incident it was obvious to all with a brain that he was truly a doper.

I have no doubt without the cancer angle and the fame and success that brought to cycling, Lance would have been brought down long before he ever got near 7 Tours wins. The cancer angle was always cynically used as a shield and I find that offensive and immoral.

I think most people would like to see him go down not because he cheated but of how he used cancer to camouflage that cheating and promote himself as some sort of icon with all the attending posturing and BS. I really dont get bothered by dopers, I dont hate on them the way some do on here, I understand the part of doping in the context of cycling history. It does **** me of when someone is busted and I wish it didnt exist but I deal with it in a rational manner.

What Armstrong done and got away with goes far beyond the realm of just another doping cyclist and to have listen all the BS around the guy for the last 7-8 years all the while knowing he was a fake, well I just find it hard how anyone can not want to see him go down. To me Lance is the perfect figurehead of an immorally bankrupt society in which fakes can become super-rich icons based on nothing more than lies and BS.

excellent post. conveys pretty much every sentiment i have expressed.

unfortunately, it was an effort unproductively spent responding to a closet fanboy pretending to be one of the boys.

nothing wrong with being a fan. pretending isn't.

 

[Topangarider]

In a sense you are right but as I consistenly point out, Lance is not just another athlete like the guys you listed or Merckx or Contador or whoever. Lance represents something else entirely, a cancer survivor, if Lance were just another athlete, he would have had nowhere near the same riches, fame, leeway etc. He is not even the most successful 4-5 cyclists of all time but he dwarfs all other cyclists in terms of fame, not because of his athletic success but because of his STORY.

Its how he used that story to cheat, bully and manipulate his way to the top that is the biggest fraud and grinds with so many people. ItS not just about the doping. Lance allowed himself and actively promoted a certain image of himself as the survivor, the great hero, the cleaner than thou cyclist.

Any guy who starts of from the point of 'I survived cancer so no way would I put drugs in my body' is putting himself on an almighty pedestal and the thing is so many people knew he was doped to the gills from the start. The French for a start, the likes of Kimmage, Walsh. By 2004 and the Simeoni incident it was obvious to all with a brain that he was truly a doper.

I have no doubt without the cancer angle and the fame and success that brought to cycling, Lance would have been brought down long before he ever got near 7 Tours wins. The cancer angle was always cynically used as a shield and I find that offensive and immoral.

I think most people would like to see him go down not because he cheated but of how he used cancer to camouflage that cheating and promote himself as some sort of icon with all the attending posturing and BS. I really dont get bothered by dopers, I dont hate on them the way some do on here, I understand the part of doping in the context of cycling history. It does **** me of when someone is busted and I wish it didnt exist but I deal with it in a rational manner.

What Armstrong done and got away with goes far beyond the realm of just another doping cyclist and to have listen all the BS around the guy for the last 7-8 years all the while knowing he was a fake, well I just find it hard how anyone can not want to see him go down. To me Lance is the perfect figurehead of an immorally bankrupt society in which fakes can become super-rich icons based on nothing more than lies and BS.

+1
Great post. Thanks.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Whether Armstrong's behavior towards Simeoni is equivalent to his churlish behavior to women like Emma O'Reilly and Betsy Andreu is hardly the point. The point is that this type of behavior is entirely inconsistent with that of a person with a clear conscience.

Like Bernie Madoff or Robert Stanford, Armstrong's entire success story is based on fraud and lies. He's just another face on Mount Cashmore.

 

[python]

Whether Armstrong's behavior towards Simeoni is equivalent to his churlish behavior to women like Emma O'Reilly and Betsy Andreu is hardly the point. The point is that this type of behavior is entirely inconsistent with that of a person with a clear conscience.

Like Bernie Madoff or Robert Stanford, Armstrong's entire success story is based on fraud and lies. He's just another face on Mount Cashmore.

you nailed it, moosy.

benotti was making a point about a bully armstrong taking every opportunity to intimidate and shut his detractors. benotti was NOT comparing the victims credentials with regard to doping..


the fact that a 'firmly-sitting-on-the-fence' pretender tried to divert the discussion to an unrelated issue of denigrating the messenger (simeoni) rather than evaluating his irrefutable message ('ferrarri is a doping doc') speaks volumes about the purpose of such transparent efforts.

 

[JRTinMA]

excellent post. conveys pretty much every sentiment i have expressed.

unfortunately, it was an effort unproductively spent responding to a closet fanboy pretending to be one of the boys.

nothing wrong with being a fan. pretending isn't.

I'm so in your dome. You bring me joy with every post about me.

 

[JRTinMA]

you nailed it, moosy.

benotti was making a point about a bully armstrong taking every opportunity to intimidate and shut his detractors. benotti was NOT comparing the victims credentials with regard to doping..


the fact that a 'firmly-sitting-on-the-fence' pretender tried to divert the discussion to an unrelated issue of denigrating the messenger (simeoni) rather than evaluating his irrefutable message ('ferrarri is a doping doc') speaks volumes about the purpose of such transparent efforts.

I'm in your dome. You made this a special birthday. Thanks!

 

[Willy_Voet]

In a sense you are right but as I consistenly point out, Lance is not just another athlete like the guys you listed or Merckx or Contador or whoever. ....

To me Lance is the perfect figurehead of an immorally bankrupt society in which fakes can become super-rich icons based on nothing more than lies and BS.

+1 excellent post.

 

[python]

I'm in your dome. You made this a special birthday. Thanks!

i could care less in whose dome you are.


perhaps it's dr maseratti's b/c he honored your bating.

but i enjoy exposing a fake, that is a a pretender fan boy.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I'm in your dome. You made this a special birthday. Thanks!

The only dome you need to worry about is this one.

 

[mewmewmew13]

excellent post. conveys pretty much every sentiment i have expressed.

unfortunately, it was an effort unproductively spent responding to a closet fanboy pretending to be one of the boys.

nothing wrong with being a fan. pretending isn't.

it appears as there are at least a couple more...

And, pmcg76,a well written capsule of what most of us non-fans are truly repulsed by...

The intimidation, strong-arm tactics, and abuse of power that comes from celebrity and/or money puts LA right up there in the realm of some other high profile shmucks. The same ego-driven need to be in control and win that has left many innocent and nice folks in his wake.

The whole 'charity' situation reminds me of a while back...

For anyone that is interested in a story about another 'philanthropist'---Michael Milken. Remember him?
the article is very long --
http://www.deepcapture.com/michael-milken-60000-deaths-and-the-story-of-dendreon-chapter-1-of-15/

but I just thought this short excerpt was somewhat relevant:

"As for Milken, he was released from prison in 1993, at which point he went to considerable lengths to rebrand himself as a “prominent philanthropist.” One of the “philanthropic” outfits that he founded is the Prostate Cancer Foundation, and for this he has received widespread applause from the media, government officials, and the business elite. Because Milken has effectively bathed himself in the glow of his “philanthropy” (and because his public relations machine is so indisputably clever), many people find themselves saying that Milken’s financial crimes were but misdemeanors – the slight over-exuberance of a “market innovator.”
But the Dendreon story raises serious questions about the nature of Milken’s “philanthropy” – and about a society that venerates and even seeks guidance and favor from the most destructive financial criminal the world has ever known."

 

[Polish]

The only dome you need to worry about is this one.

Novitsky is as over rated as Tommy D.
Although Tommy D has much better results....

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Great post, pmcg76.

 

[veganrob]

Probably anyone who smokes, works with toxic material does illegal drugs, doesn't get breast screened, colonscopy. Anyone who works with toxic dusts, lead mines, lives near uranium mines, etc.......

Wrong! Most of the people you speak of are all aware of the cancer risks in their environment. Some care stuck in a bad situation others disregard the danger. Kinda like your boy, I'm sure he knew of the cancer risk from all the
PEDS he did.

 

[Hugh Januss]

So to summarize, the only things Lance has going for him by this point are that he has "done too much good for too many people" (whatever that means), and that his defenders have now taken up the fall back position of "we know he is an *** and a fraud, but we like to pretend he isn't because it riles you guys up".