Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[MarkvW]

you nailed it, moosy.

benotti was making a point about a bully armstrong taking every opportunity to intimidate and shut his detractors. benotti was NOT comparing the victims credentials with regard to doping..


the fact that a 'firmly-sitting-on-the-fence' pretender tried to divert the discussion to an unrelated issue of denigrating the messenger (simeoni) rather than evaluating his irrefutable message ('ferrarri is a doping doc') speaks volumes about the purpose of such transparent efforts.

Divert the discussion? This is about the ramblingest discussion imaginable!
Denigrating the messenger? By not equating a doping competitor to two innocent employees?
"Evaluating his irrefutable message?" That's just goofy. An irrefutable message needs no evaluation.

Then you attack the author's intent. Like somehow, by his honest posting on this forum, that he/she is insidiously working towards. . . . What? You don't say. You use innuendo, one of the lamest tactics available.

If I was a Lance Armstrong fanboy, I would author posts exactly like this one by python. Posts like this keep reasonable people away from the Clinic and make Armstrong critics look intolerant and unreasonable.

Armstrong is defeated when reasonable people turn against him. Shrieking harpies with fixed agendas only preach to the already converted.

Must you be so cruel?

 

[Anonymous]

Novitsky is as over rated as Tommy D.
Although Tommy D has much better results....

Yea, but, like a certain rider who never showed any aptitude for GT's before getting cancer and busting his **** 6 hours every day on his bike (and injecting a massive amount of performance enhancing drugs lol), he is getting to ready be able to use the "You like apples?" line that Pharmstrong stole from a movie. Gonna be sweet lol.

 

[Anonymous]

So to summarize, the only things Lance has going for him by this point are that he has "done too much good for too many people" (whatever that means), and that his defenders have now taken up the fall back position of "we know he is an *** and a fraud, but we like to pretend he isn't because it riles you guys up".

You have to admire the simplicity...

 

[D-Queued]

...

Michael Milken. Remember him?
the article is very long --
http://www.deepcapture.com/michael-milken-60000-deaths-and-the-story-of-dendreon-chapter-1-of-15/

but I just thought this short excerpt was somewhat relevant:

Sorry, mew, but aside from being off-topic, the article looks to be a completely unrelated smear on Milken with absolutely no direct connections.

#3 on the close connections list is:

"3.a trader who co-founded his fund with a man who was jailed for plotting to murder Michael Milken’s famous co-conspirator, Ivan Boesky;"

So blame that on Milken?

There is real evidence on Lance.

Not some guy who maybe knew some guy who allegedly wanted to kill some guy who might have known him or some other guy.

Dave.

 

[Polish]

Yea, but, like a certain rider who never showed any aptitude for GT's before getting cancer and busting his **** 6 hours every day on his bike (and injecting a massive amount of performance enhancing drugs lol), he is getting to ready be able to use the "You like apples?" line that Pharmstrong stole from a movie. Gonna be sweet lol.

Big Deal.
Novitsky will throw 20-30 indictments at Lance hoping one will stick.
What a success.
And Novitsky has job security, a big budget, and a pension.
All the time in the world to do his thing....

But Lance has ALREADY won.
His legacy is set.
And his legacy will be defined by history not haters lol.

And Lance's treasure is earning interest plus plus.
He has already won.
Do you think a stint of jailtime will make Lance cry boohoo?
I do not think so. Lance will not care. Lance will not give a **** lol again

 

[bigloco]

Divert the discussion? This is about the ramblingest discussion imaginable!
Denigrating the messenger? By not equating a doping competitor to two innocent employees?
"Evaluating his irrefutable message?" That's just goofy. An irrefutable message needs no evaluation.

Then you attack the author's intent. Like somehow, by his honest posting on this forum, that he/she is insidiously working towards. . . . What? You don't say. You use innuendo, one of the lamest tactics available.

If I was a Lance Armstrong fanboy, I would author posts exactly like this one by python. Posts like this keep reasonable people away from the Clinic and make Armstrong critics look intolerant and unreasonable.

Armstrong is defeated when reasonable people turn against him. Shrieking harpies with fixed agendas only preach to the already converted.

Must you be so cruel?

Sometimes I think flicker and Polish are anti-fanboys posing as fanboys to drive real fanboys away from there fanboyism.

 

[red_flanders]

In a sense you are right but as I consistenly point out, Lance is not just another athlete like the guys you listed or Merckx or Contador or whoever. Lance represents something else entirely, a cancer survivor, if Lance were just another athlete, he would have had nowhere near the same riches, fame, leeway etc. He is not even the most successful 4-5 cyclists of all time but he dwarfs all other cyclists in terms of fame, not because of his athletic success but because of his STORY.

Its how he used that story to cheat, bully and manipulate his way to the top that is the biggest fraud and grinds with so many people. ItS not just about the doping. Lance allowed himself and actively promoted a certain image of himself as the survivor, the great hero, the cleaner than thou cyclist.

Any guy who starts of from the point of 'I survived cancer so no way would I put drugs in my body' is putting himself on an almighty pedestal and the thing is so many people knew he was doped to the gills from the start. The French for a start, the likes of Kimmage, Walsh. By 2004 and the Simeoni incident it was obvious to all with a brain that he was truly a doper.

I have no doubt without the cancer angle and the fame and success that brought to cycling, Lance would have been brought down long before he ever got near 7 Tours wins. The cancer angle was always cynically used as a shield and I find that offensive and immoral.

I think most people would like to see him go down not because he cheated but of how he used cancer to camouflage that cheating and promote himself as some sort of icon with all the attending posturing and BS. I really dont get bothered by dopers, I dont hate on them the way some do on here, I understand the part of doping in the context of cycling history. It does **** me of when someone is busted and I wish it didnt exist but I deal with it in a rational manner.

What Armstrong done and got away with goes far beyond the realm of just another doping cyclist and to have listen all the BS around the guy for the last 7-8 years all the while knowing he was a fake, well I just find it hard how anyone can not want to see him go down. To me Lance is the perfect figurehead of an immorally bankrupt society in which fakes can become super-rich icons based on nothing more than lies and BS.

Genius post.

 

[python]

Dave.

dave, i could be slow this early morning, or wrong, but the way i understood mew, she was referring to the parallell of the tejas issue you yourself referred to before...
..

...has effectively bathed himself in the glow of his “philanthropy”

she couldn't be more correct !

 

[Anonymous]

Big Deal.
Novitsky will throw 20-30 indictments at Lance hoping one will stick.
What a success.
And Novitsky has job security, a big budget, and a pension.
All the time in the world to do his thing....

But Lance has ALREADY won.
His legacy is set.
And his legacy will be defined by history not haters lol.

And Lance's treasure is earning interest plus plus.
He has already won.
Do you think a stint of jailtime will make Lance cry boohoo?
I do not think so. Lance will not care. Lance will not give a **** lol again

Yea, federal jail time is something Lance is well prepared to face. He is from the streets. I bet he is riding around listening to some Cypress Hill right now lol. But really, Lance's treasure is in heaven. Like all of us lol.

Of course, he probably won't be convicted of anything but being awesome lol.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Yea, federal jail time is something Lance is well prepared to face. He is from the streets. I bet he is riding around listening to some Cypress Hill right now lol. But really, Lance's treasure is in heaven. Like all of us lol.

Originally Posted by Polish View Post
Big Deal.
Novitsky will throw 20-30 indictments at Lance hoping one will stick.
What a success.
And Novitsky has job security, a big budget, and a pension.
All the time in the world to do his thing....

But Lance has ALREADY won.
His legacy is set.
And his legacy will be defined by history not haters lol.

And Lance's treasure is earning interest plus plus.
He has already won.
Do you think a stint of jailtime will make Lance cry boohoo?
I do not think so. Lance will not care. Lance will not give a **** lol again

I've always suspected that Polish is a put-on. That post clinches it.

 

[D-Queued]

dave, i could be slow this early morning, or wrong, but the way i understood mew, she was referring to the parallell of the tejas issue you yourself referred to before...
..



she couldn't be more correct !

Maybe I am being too soft on Milken, but I have followed his story for a long time. The $600m annual compensation still gets my attention (or was it $400m, either way a whole lot of cash).

He did pay $200 million in fines, $400 million in restitution. May Lance be so lucky!

My sense of Milken, and I could be wrong, was that the insider trading was as much about trying to keep his creation, the junk bond market, alive as it was about personal profit.

We can give Milken some credit for the existence of the cell phone market and cheap long-distance rates. When the famous McKinsey study said that there would be less than 1m customers by 2000, Milken helped finance McCaw the cell phone pioneer, as well as MCI the long-distance provider.

There is a big difference in my mind between Lance and Milken, or even Mortenson and Milken. I don't think Milken is using charity as a personal promotional device in the way that these two are.

On the positive side, Milken literally created the junk bond market. Lance did not create cycling no matter how much Polish tries to convince everyone otherwise.

Then, of course, Milken almost destroyed his own creation. Lance may yet permanently damage the sport, of course, and there is some parallel there.

Milken did not start his charity before being charged and indicted. He did not hide behind it when he went to jail.

Yes, he had done philanthropic acts before falling from grace. Yes, he is extremely wealthy. But has more or less committed his life as a known felon to charity.

There is no self-promotional 'hope rides again' BS with Milken. No megalomaniacal attempt to take over a whole sport or industry.

If Lance is indicted, prosecuted and jailed. Then, after he is released, admits his errors in judgement. And, after all of that, performs true philanthropy without skimming off the top. Then, maybe, I will see a bit more of a parallel.

That is a long way off, and I am not holding my breath.

Dave.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Dave, yes, I think you missed the focus of my excerpt--not the entire article...
substitute the letters 'LA' for 'Milken' and think fraud and trafficking---

"Because Milken has effectively bathed himself in the glow of his “philanthropy” (and because his public relations machine is so indisputably clever), many people find themselves saying that Milken’s financial crimes were but misdemeanors – the slight over-exuberance of a “market innovator.”

In essence , our society is buffaloed into not noticing the severity of crime in some cases, if the 'cover' is some 'do-good , feel-good' smokescreen.

Thanks Python, yes , this was my point.

 

[D-Queued]

Dave, yes, I think you missed the focus of my excerpt--not the entire article...
substitute the letters 'LA' for 'Milken' and think fraud and trafficking---

"Because Milken has effectively bathed himself in the glow of his “philanthropy” (and because his public relations machine is so indisputably clever), many people find themselves saying that Milken’s financial crimes were but misdemeanors – the slight over-exuberance of a “market innovator.”

In essence , our society is buffaloed into not noticing the severity of crime in some cases, if the 'cover' is some 'do-good , feel-good' smokescreen.

Thanks Python, yes , this was my point.

Thanks mew. Sorry if I was harsh.

See my note above, though, for why I struggle with this particular parallel.

Dave.

 

[JRTinMA]

i could care less in whose dome you are.


perhaps it's dr maseratti's b/c he honored your bating.

but i enjoy exposing a fake, that is a a pretender fan boy.

You care a lot python and you know it. Its why you follow me around like a little puppy. Yea yea I'm a fanboy, bfd, the last bastion of the defeated and desperate. I would dismantle you but I don't do that anymore. Outside this clinic and your "boys" as you called them you would be spotted as the spurned LA fanboi.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Based on the AP article quoted by CyclingNews, I expect that Armstrong and several associates will be indicted under RICO with Tailwind Sports as the criminal enterprise perpetrating underlying felonies like, fraud, conspiracy, tax evasion, money laundering and possibly threats and intimidation of others to keep the enterprise going. Suborning perjury and witness tampering might also be in an indictment. This will be a very interesting Summer.

The other show is going to occur when some of the defendants turn on the others. It's always fun to watch the snakes go at each other.

 

[Race Radio]

Novitsky is as over rated as Tommy D.
Although Tommy D has much better results....

Doug Miller runs the case. His office has the highest conviction rate in the nation.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Yes, I see what you are saying , Dave. I actually was not trying to draw parallels between the crimes or cases of these two Lance and MM.

It is the fact that our society buys into the 'too much good for too many people' syndrome that is frightening to me. The average American sees the inflated cover of the 'cancer awareness' and LieStrong 'charity' and therefore a jury might tend to not clearly see the actual facts in their true light or severity.

Anyway, I'm moving on....I'm multitasking tonight and not giving my posts enough focus.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Sometimes I think flicker and Polish are anti-fanboys posing as fanboys to drive real fanboys away from there fanboyism.

Nah. They just retreat into inanity when the evidence becomes too overwhelming.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Doug Miller runs the case. His office has the highest conviction rate in the nation.

Polish knows this, RR. Don't take the bait.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yo momma yo momma yo momma!

You are a genuine internet tough guy.

 

[Cal_Joe]

Tangled Webs

A recent review of a new book may be interesting to denizens of the clinic. James B. Stewarts "Tangled Webs" - subtitled "How False Statements are Undermining America: From Martha Stewart to Bernie Madoff ".

The book looks at recent events concerning Barry Bonds, Martha Stewart, Bernie Madoff, Karl Rove, and Scooter Libbey.

The review in the Los Angeles Times is here - http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/books/la-et-book-20110511,0,6226036.story

Some interesting snippets of the review -

"We appear to be on the brink of becoming a society where perjury is the norm," Stewart writes. "We lionize those who win, and turn a blind eye to cheating.… The consequences are devastating."

Stewart writes, "that in the Bush White House, loyalty trumped truth."

"The charges against Libby did show a dispiriting willingness to lie — repeatedly and under oath — at the highest levels of the government."

"But ultimately, Stewart's book is less about his voluminous details than it is about the pervasiveness of lies, and, to borrow an Al Franken phrase, the lying liars who tell them, from sports to Wall Street to the White House."

Interesting reading.

 

[JRTinMA]

Does my life have meaning?

You're ok hugh, on that chart you made the other day you would be listed as,

Hugh Januss
RR's affable sidekick

 

[Francois the Postman]

Cal_Joe, there is a perfectly fine politics thread on the site. You are injecting far too much off topic political commentary for a LA thread into those posts.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I eat pieces of shit like you for breakfast.

Uhm, good one?

 

[Francois the Postman]

OK, I don't have the time to read back and see how we got there.

Calm down guys.