Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Mambo95]

Without Cancer it is likely Gunderson would have not won the first Tdf '99 as he failed a test for corticoid. How did he dodge that, a backdated TUE, which those oh so nice people the UCI let him away with. Otherwise, bang there and then 2 year ban, and no 7 wins.

He wouldn't have been banned because it wasn't a positive test. It was comfortably below allowable limits. Steels, Coppolillo, Piccoli and Nardello all had similar tests. None of them had had cancer. None of them got banned for it.

You can read about it here: http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1999/jul99/jul22.shtml

There's plenty of dirt to throw at him, but that test isn't part of it. I don't why people keep bringing it up.

 

[Oldman]

Exactly, let's wait and see is all I am saying as well. And let's not forget the absurd can happen even if the charges are insanely airtight. I was just reacting originally to the punchline of how "never tested positive" will be totally dismissed by the jury, and then to the victory laps in here about how LA is going down. That is by far not a sure thing as we have discussed.

Do you really see LA plea bargaining? I can't really wrap my head around that one, but who knows. Bonds for example I think would have been smart to please bargain. They didn't need Anderson to get him, but Bond's took his chances on the jury finding him not guilty on insanely obvious perjury. He lost the "obstruction of justice", and that makes zero sense if he didn't commit perjury. Especially listening to what the mental midget jurors were saying afterward to defend that train wreck of a verdict.

Absurdity can abound if LA and others start pleaing out. Will it happen? It depends on who the end target is and we all doubt LA is a criminal mastermind. He was surrounded by well-educated and well-heeled syncophants eager to bask in the reflected limelight. I had a candid conversation with an ex-partner of Mr. Weisel and he characterized him as a win at all costs guy, moving at a speed where he couldn't even see the trail of damage behind him (not my words). He thought the fascination with cycling would only be a passing hobby for Thom but apparently not.

 

[Anonymous]

LOL no I mean a bunch of stupid people walk in, and then a bunch of smart people emerge like yourself and deliver the correct verdict. Like some transformation takes place in a jury room where all idiocy flies away like a fart in the wind.

I was complimenting you.

Then I AM an idiot...

 

[Polish]

My sources are teling me that Team RadioShack is having an Exclusive post Tour of California partay.
Woo Woo.
"with special live performances from Grammy Award winning artist Big Boi (of Outkast), Ghostland Observatory, plus a DJ set by legendary street artist Shepard Fairey will kick off the night."
Read more: http://www.bradenton.com/2011/05/12/3190432/team-radioshack-and-lance-armstrong.html#ixzz1MA2U2gE6

Gosh, I hope this does not conflict with the Honey Badger or Beazed Parties...

 

[Hugh Januss]

My sources are teling me that Team RadioShack is having an Exclusive post Tour of California partay.
Woo Woo.
"with special live performances from Grammy Award winning artist Big Boi (of Outkast), Ghostland Observatory, plus a DJ set by legendary street artist Shepard Fairey will kick off the night."
Read more: http://www.bradenton.com/2011/05/12/3190432/team-radioshack-and-lance-armstrong.html#ixzz1MA2U2gE6

Gosh, I hope this does not conflict with the Honey Badger or Beazed Parties...

If it does, I know where I'll be.

 

[MarkvW]

Never Tested Positive

Exactly, let's wait and see is all I am saying as well. And let's not forget the absurd can happen even if the charges are insanely airtight. I was just reacting originally to the punchline of how "never tested positive" will be totally dismissed by the jury, and then to the victory laps in here about how LA is going down. That is by far not a sure thing as we have discussed.

Do you really see LA plea bargaining? I can't really wrap my head around that one, but who knows. Bonds for example I think would have been smart to please bargain. They didn't need Anderson to get him, but Bond's took his chances on the jury finding him not guilty on insanely obvious perjury. He lost the "obstruction of justice", and that makes zero sense if he didn't commit perjury. Especially listening to what the mental midget jurors were saying afterward to defend that train wreck of a verdict.

If Armstrong is charged criminally, and if doping is relevant, and if Armstrong goes to trial the feds are going to hammer this issue, make it dead, bury it, dig it up, and kill it again. They will prove (a) how you cheat to beat the test (with riders, pharmacologists, doctors, etc.), (b) that the posties did it that way (with ex-posties, old urine, doping experts, financial records/accountants, and maybe even dopehandler/dopedealer snitches); and (c) that Armstrong knew about it and played a role in it (firsthand witnesses, maybe financials and financial experts). Armstrong probably wouldn't even get to play the "never tested positive" card (it's hearsay) unless the Feds open the door or Lance proves each of the tests in court (an expensive proposition). By the end of the trial, "never tested positive" (if it is used at all) will be inexorably connected to "sophisticated doping." Everything, or almost everything, will be corroborated. The feds don't play around.

Big if, though. Not getting my hopes up for this in a criminal trial. However, if the Feds take up Floyd's qui tam. . . Nah, that would end up being a boring money settlement.

 

[D-Queued]

My sources are teling me that Team RadioShack is having an Exclusive post Tour of California partay.
Woo Woo.
"with special live performances from Grammy Award winning artist Big Boi (of Outkast), Ghostland Observatory, plus a DJ set by legendary street artist Shepard Fairey will kick off the night."
Read more: http://www.bradenton.com/2011/05/12/3190432/team-radioshack-and-lance-armstrong.html#ixzz1MA2U2gE6

Gosh, I hope this does not conflict with the Honey Badger or Beazed Parties...

They've already scheduled the wake?

Nothing like planning for the invevitable.

Dave.

 

[Aleajactaest]

What am I missing?

I've read 30 pages of this thread and there is nothing but I said, you said in the whole thing.

Wouldn't evidence to bolster the case for or against Lance be useful?

The haters all say they have evidence and the fanboys, all say it's not proven.

I say there isn't a good case either way and while I certainly have my suspicions, I'm not gonna get into arguments on web site where there can never be answers.

 

[Polish]

They've already scheduled the wake?

Nothing like planning for the invevitable.

Dave.

Gonna PARTY likes its 1999!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnuijDieOvY
.
.
.

 

[flicker]

My sources are teling me that Team RadioShack is having an Exclusive post Tour of California partay.
Woo Woo.
"with special live performances from Grammy Award winning artist Big Boi (of Outkast), Ghostland Observatory, plus a DJ set by legendary street artist Shepard Fairey will kick off the night."
Read more: http://www.bradenton.com/2011/05/12/3190432/team-radioshack-and-lance-armstrong.html#ixzz1MA2U2gE6

Gosh, I hope this does not conflict with the Honey Badger or Beazed Parties...

Will RR/Dim sneak into the party and give some very high pitched pre-pubescent boos,(Luxumburg Style) when Lance shakes Levi's hand after Levi's #4 win?

 

[Anonymous]

What am I missing?

I've read 30 pages of this thread and there is nothing but I said, you said in the whole thing.

Wouldn't evidence to bolster the case for or against Lance be useful?

The haters all say they have evidence and the fanboys, all say it's not proven.

I say there isn't a good case either way and while I certainly have my suspicions, I'm not gonna get into arguments on web site where there can never be answers.

Well then don't. See how simple that was. Now say "thank you" and move along.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Well then don't. See how simple that was. Now say "thank you" and move along.

Why do so many people feel they need to check in just to let us know that they really aren't interested?

 

[Oldman]

If Armstrong is charged criminally, and if doping is relevant, and if Armstrong goes to trial the feds are going to hammer this issue, make it dead, bury it, dig it up, and kill it again. They will prove (a) how you cheat to beat the test (with riders, pharmacologists, doctors, etc.), (b) that the posties did it that way (with ex-posties, old urine, doping experts, financial records/accountants, and maybe even dopehandler/dopedealer snitches); and (c) that Armstrong knew about it and played a role in it (firsthand witnesses, maybe financials and financial experts). Armstrong probably wouldn't even get to play the "never tested positive" card (it's hearsay) unless the Feds open the door or Lance proves each of the tests in court (an expensive proposition). By the end of the trial, "never tested positive" (if it is used at all) will be inexorably connected to "sophisticated doping." Everything, or almost everything, will be corroborated. The feds don't play around.

Big if, though. Not getting my hopes up for this in a criminal trial. However, if the Feds take up Floyd's qui tam. . . Nah, that would end up being a boring money settlement.

Not to beat a dead horse but, if the media feed from the Feds is any indication, Lance's personal doping use is a minor issue. They've moved significantly upstream from there to almost RICO level fraud and money issues on an international level. That's probably good and bad for your hopes of a criminal conviction. Good because he will likely be exposed for the fraud he personally is and Bad because he is partly pawn in a bigger game. He will be pressed to confirm events and name people to avoid a criminal conviction and he will do that unless he suddenly shows some sense of loyalty to anyone else other than Lance Armstrong. You could take even odds bets on the outcome at this point.

 

[MarkvW]

Not to beat a dead horse but, if the media feed from the Feds is any indication, Lance's personal doping use is a minor issue. They've moved significantly upstream from there to almost RICO level fraud and money issues on an international level. That's probably good and bad for your hopes of a criminal conviction. Good because he will likely be exposed for the fraud he personally is and Bad because he is partly pawn in a bigger game. He will be pressed to confirm events and name people to avoid a criminal conviction and he will do that unless he suddenly shows some sense of loyalty to anyone else other than Lance Armstrong. You could take even odds bets on the outcome at this point.

Texas Tribune did a live blog with Lance and the host made the point of stating that Lance said he had "never even received a target letter in a doping investigation." Hmm... A suspicious person might consider this some slight support for your analysis.

 

[Aleajactaest]

Why do so many people feel they need to check in just to let us know that they really aren't interested?

I'm interested in facts, apparently, that doesn't bother you folks. Continue your baseless speculation and specious arguments. I'll walk away and wait for some facts.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm interested in facts, apparently, that doesn't bother you folks. Continue your baseless speculation and specious arguments. I'll walk away and wait for some facts.

Make sure to wave every once and awhile so we know you care!* Toodles!








*Like we believe a person who's first post is in this thread, and who obviously is fishing for the list of things many of us do believe are facts so he can sit back and feel satisfied with himself for inciting the response he was looking to get, is going to not post again. This ain't our first rodeo cowboy, but thanks for playing.

P.S. We know who you are.

 

[Granville57]

In addition to a good but not far and away better doping program, LA had a very strong work ethic, and creative if boring new team tactics. His teammates, though not having access to Ferrari’s splendors, managed to dope themselves so well that they could outride or at least tire out many of LA’s GC contenders on early stages of the Tour, and even on the early portions of some key climbs. This was another key to his success, but it also suggests that very good doping results were possible without Ferrari’s help. As far as I know, George and all the other lieutenants were not enrolled in Ferrari's program. Yet they became monsters in the Tour sometimes. Doesn't this show that Ferrari wasn't needed for really good results? Or is the claim here that LA was passing on Ferrari's special program (not just drugs, but specific tips on how to use them) to his teammates? But if Ferrari's program was capable of turning a one day racer into a seven time TDF winner, why would LA want to pass it along to guys like Hincapie?

According to FLandis (who retired from lying )

Landis said he worked with Armstrong's personal trainer, Dr. Michele Ferrari of Italy, who consulted with several riders on the Postal team at the height of Armstrong's career. Ferrari helped Landis with the extraction and re-transfusion of his own blood during one session in St. Moritz, Switzerland, in 2002, according to Landis.

"I mean, he's one of the best references. I didn't wish to take the risks on my own and especially since it was fairly clear that his advice was endorsed by Lance himself. And therefore Johan and the other guys that knew of it and were involved -- working with him, they'd understand the risks that I was taking as well and therefore trust me."

He also said in the e-mail that a team doctor gave him and Hincapie, who he said was his roommate during the 2003 Tour de France, syringes filled with olive oil in which andriol, a form of testosterone that can be taken orally, had been dissolved.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=5203604

 

[Anonymous]

And before I get hammered by the Mods for being unkind to the new guy, I promise that is my last post on the subject. He is now added to my long ignore list which contains many of his previous iterations.

 

[D-Queued]

Good news is just around the corner.

The trolls are restless, and the trolldar is beeping like crazy

Dave.

 

[Benotti69]

Alea Jacta Est = The Die Is Cast

 

[Race Radio]

Texas Tribune did a live blog with Lance and the host made the point of stating that Lance said he had "never even received a target letter in a doping investigation." Hmm... A suspicious person might consider this some slight support for your analysis.

Target letters come at different times for different players.

If they want you to appear before the Grand Jury as a witness you get a target letter during the investigation. If you are one of the primary targets and will be getting charged then you get it just before charges are filed. Lance should be concerned if he has yet to receive one.

It is not entirely true that Armstrong has not been notified that he is a target. Last August Armstrong, Bruyneel, Stapleton, Thomas W. Weisel and numerous owner-investors in the various companies that operated the team were notified of their status as targets of the Qui Tam case

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Armstrong's legal team met with the US Attorney in San Jose. It wasn't just to get some coffee. They know their boy has the crosshairs on him and they did their best to get the investigation dropped. Lance and Co. know they're going down. The only question is--can he cut a deal to send up Thom, Johan, Bill S., Och and Scott what's his name and save himself from serious prison time. If he's charged under RICO, he could see his assets depleted by fines and forfeiture.

My gut feeling is that this could be one of the biggest sporting fraud/conspiracy trials ever seen in the US.

 

[Elagabalus]

Alea Jacta Est = The Die Is Cast

Latin! That might be a little too high brow for BPC. It's a nice little phrase perhaps indicating a little foreshadowing for Mr Armstrong?

 

[MarkvW]

didactic density

Target letters come at different times for different players.

If they want you to appear before the Grand Jury as a witness you get a target letter during the investigation. If you are one of the primary targets and will be getting charged then you get it just before charges are filed. Lance should be concerned if he has yet to receive one.

It is not entirely true that Armstrong has not been notified that he is a target. Last August Armstrong, Bruyneel, Stapleton, Thomas W. Weisel and numerous owner-investors in the various companies that operated the team were notified of their status as targets of the Qui Tam case

I never said that Armstrong has not been notified as a target in this post. I said that Armstrong said that he had never been given a target letter in a doping investigation.

This was said in the context of Oldman's thoughtful post suggesting that Lance has bigger things to worry about than doping. One could read this as Armstrong's implicit admission of receipt of (non-doping) GJ target letters?

Do you get it NOW?

 

[Benotti69]

Latin! That might be a little too high brow for BPC. It's a nice little phrase perhaps indicating a little foreshadowing for Mr Armstrong?

it's also the name of an Asturian power metal band.

someone with a name of a Spanish power metal band deserves to be banned