Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[Polish]

Thank you for sharing that.

Your're welcome Cima.
Thank you for you're insights too.

BTW, FoxNews just put up an article on the same subject as CN.
Now I know Fox News is owned by SkyNews/Murdoch and have zero credibility lol,
but at least they know how to properly title an article

Swiss Lab Director Denies Covering Up Lance Armstrong's Positive Test

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/...lance-armstrongs-positive-test/#ixzz1Nar8W1oV
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[Merckx index]

Let’s compare what 60 minutes says with what Saugy says:

"60 Minutes" has obtained a letter that was sent from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency requesting information from the Swiss lab that did the test. That letter reveals that the lab found the initial test of a urine sample "suspicious" and "consistent with EPO use." We have also learned that the lab director met with Johan Bruyneel, the U.S. Postal Service team's manager, and Armstrong.

We are told that the Swiss lab director has given a sworn statement to the FBI. An official familiar with the investigation says that the lab director told the FBI that a representative of the International Cycling Union wanted the matter of the suspicious test to go no further. The lab director also said that the meeting with Bruyneel and Armstrong was arranged by the International Cycling Union itself.

Martial Saugy said his Lausanne lab did find suspicious levels of banned blood-booster EPO in four urine samples from the race that Armstrong won, but he didn't know if any belonged to the seven-time Tour de France winner.

"The tests were not swept under the table and it's not true that they could have been interpreted as positive," Saugy told Swiss daily Neue Zurcher Zeitung.

Saugy said Friday that he did meet with Armstrong and then U.S. Postal team manager Johan Bruyneel, but not in Lausanne as Hamilton claimed and unconnected to a suspicious test result.

"It also wasn't about discussing a particular result or to cover up anything," said Saugy, adding that the 2002 meeting occurred during a collection of blood samples.

Saugy said he gave U.S. Postal his routine presentation about EPO testing at a time when its validity and parameters were still in question.

"I explained how the EPO test worked and why there were suspect samples as well as positive ones," he told the NZZ.

Both sources say the sample was suspicious rather than positive. I continue to think this is a critical distinction, and the fact that both sources agree here makes me think it probably was not a positive.

Saugy’s account of the meeting with JB and LA seems to differ from that of 60 minutes, however, in that the latter said the meeting was arranged by UCI, which wanted a suspicious result to go away. The two accounts can be reconciled only if the meeting 60 minutes refers to involved the LAD director at that time, who was not Saugy. I haven’t been able to find out who s/he was, but s/he seems to be the key figure here, the one who could confirm the 60 minutes story.

Interesting that 60m has not replied to Saugy’s statement, because unless they confirm that indeed it was the lab director at the time who gave the sworn testimony, someone here appears to be lying. I can understand that if Saugy gave a statement to the FBI he might not want to comment on that, but if he did, he would surely be very careful about saying anything more about this incident. In fact, he has gone out of his way to say there was no cover-up of a test result, and that the meeting was different from that described by 60m.

 

[MR_Sarcastic]

"The two accounts can be reconciled only if the meeting 60 minutes refers to involved the LAD director at that time, who was not Saugy. I haven’t been able to find out who s/he was, but s/he seems to be the key figure here, the one who could confirm the 60 minutes story."

Another possible reason might just be that Saugy was paid off with immense riches and given access to many young nubile females who flock towards a certain American rider.

Sounds good to me.

 

[ricara]

solidarity, sister!!!!

hadn't seen the interview link, i'll have to find it

Pretty much a waste of time. If you boil it down Sally Jenkins ("co-author" of It's Not About the Bike - It's About the Cash) says, "Lance is my personal friend. I like him too much to judge him. If he is indicted I'll still stick up for him. The only things that would change my mind would be a confession or a positive on a drug test."

Er, maybe she meant "eight more positive tests"...

 

[Semper Fidelis]

more cow bell

I got a fever and the prescription is ..http://www.drferrari.net/:eek:

Need 2 drop all this fat I picked up on this "Massage Board",,,,,,,,ummmm get a life LoseTards.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let’s compare what 60 minutes says with what Saugy says:


Both sources say the sample was suspicious rather than positive. I continue to think this is a critical distinction, and the fact that both sources agree here makes me think it probably was not a positive.

Saugy’s account of the meeting with JB and LA seems to differ from that of 60 minutes, however, in that the latter said the meeting was arranged by UCI, which wanted a suspicious result to go away. The two accounts can be reconciled only if the meeting 60 minutes refers to involved the LAD director at that time, who was not Saugy. I haven’t been able to find out who s/he was, but s/he seems to be the key figure here, the one who could confirm the 60 minutes story.

Interesting that 60m has not replied to Saugy’s statement, because unless they confirm that indeed it was the lab director at the time who gave the sworn testimony, someone here appears to be lying. I can understand that if Saugy gave a statement to the FBI he might not want to comment on that, but if he did, he would surely be very careful about saying anything more about this incident. In fact, he has gone out of his way to say there was no cover-up of a test result, and that the meeting was different from that described by 60m.

As has been pointed out the Lab Director in 2001 was Laurent Rivier - Saugy did not take over until 2002.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Pretty much a waste of time. If you boil it down Sally Jenkins ("co-author" of It's Not About the Bike - It's About the Cash) says, "Lance is my personal friend. I like him too much to judge him. If he is indicted I'll still stick up for him. The only things that would change my mind would be a confession or a positive on a drug test."

Er, maybe she meant "eight more positive tests"...

make that eleven please

6 positive Epo Tests (TdF 1999)
1 positive Corticosteroid (Test TdF 1999)
1 positive Epo Test at the (TdS 2001)
3 positive Testosterone Tests (from 1993 to 1996)

one is pending (Epo at Dauphine 2002)

 

[Topangarider]

"Where there is smoke, there is fire, and the forest is smoldering around Armstrong right now."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre-lance-armstrong-20110528,0,6175474.column?track=rss

 

[mewmewmew13]

good post/link Topangarider...
we are now seeing more and more mainstream folks questioning this case and responding with some intelligence.
We DO need to care about exposing cheats. The bigger the riches and fame the more we need to not turn the other cheek and let the abusers get away.

...and he calls him 'wonder ..boy'

 

[Captain Serious]

"Where there is smoke, there is fire, and the forest is smoldering around Armstrong right now."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre-lance-armstrong-20110528,0,6175474.column?track=rss

Ha! I like this one:

"He put his sport and himself on higher pedestals than ever thought possible; this similarly boosts the stakes. Punishment of sins should be in direct proportion to riches of success. The cancer charity work only adds to this. Flaws in Mother Teresa are much more wrenching than flaws in Bernie Madoff. Saintliness brings saintly expectations."

 

[Special_oz_ed]

Conspiracy Theory on LA, USPS and Swiss Lab

Does anyone think it's slightly suspicious that LA's positives for EPO were all pre-2002, and that LA, Bruyneel, USPS had a special lecture on EPO testing procedures by the Swiss Lab director that performed them?

Putting 2 + 2 together - having a lecture/Q&A type session on EPO detection and no more positives (that we know of) means: either LA didn't cheat after 2001 (which I'm prepared to consider, even if it is unlikely), or USPS and Discovery changed methods (autologous blood doping?) and/or became SO GOOD at evading detection that no more positives were registered?

It's convincing me more and more that detecting PEDs and evading detection is a game of intelligence and counter-intelligence. The reason dopers will always stay one step ahead: they have the testing methods and procedures set out in peer-reviewed scientific literature (and guest lectures from labs themselves!). Once you've got that info', you can structure very careful ways of evading detection. It's only idiots like Landis that get found out or a mistake like Hamilton's that trip riders up.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Does anyone think it's slightly suspicious that LA's positives for EPO were all pre-2002, and that LA, Bruyneel, USPS had a special lecture on EPO testing procedures by the Swiss Lab director that performed them?

Putting 2 + 2 together - having a lecture/Q&A type session on EPO detection and no more positives (that we know of) means: either LA didn't cheat after 2001 (which I'm prepared to consider, even if it is unlikely), or USPS and Discovery changed methods (autologous blood doping?) and/or became SO GOOD at evading detection that no more positives were registered?

It's convincing me more and more that detecting PEDs and evading detection is a game of intelligence and counter-intelligence. The reason dopers will always stay one step ahead: they have the testing methods and procedures set out in peer-reviewed scientific literature (and guest lectures from labs themselves!). Once you've got that info', you can structure very careful ways of evading detection. It's only idiots like Landis that get found out or a mistake like Hamilton's that trip riders up.

That´s it. Even mentioned by Landis. No test for this. And Armstrong got faster every year...

 

[Polish]

Life is unfair

"Where there is smoke, there is fire, and the forest is smoldering around Armstrong right now."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre-lance-armstrong-20110528,0,6175474.column?track=rss

Where there is smoke, there is an angry witch hunt mob.

"A riot is an ugly thing.....but I think it's just about time we had one"

http://youtu.be/Zw5pmDgWMaU



RIP Kenneth Mars lol.

 

[MarkvW]

Ha! I like this one:

"He put his sport and himself on higher pedestals than ever thought possible; this similarly boosts the stakes. Punishment of sins should be in direct proportion to riches of success. The cancer charity work only adds to this. Flaws in Mother Teresa are much more wrenching than flaws in Bernie Madoff. Saintliness brings saintly expectations."

You'd expect the media to say that. The higher they can build them up, the more excitement they can generate when they tear them down.

 

[Cal_Joe]

"Where there is smoke, there is fire, and the forest is smoldering around Armstrong right now."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre-lance-armstrong-20110528,0,6175474.column?track=rss

Another quote from the article - "All too sadly, one of our most exceptional wonder boys now has us wondering."

Hmmm, does Bill Dwyer (LA Times) read the Clinic?

 

[webvan]

Not bad, but doesn't make the compelling argument that LA cheated and had a "hollier than though" attitude, not to mention the bullying.

Great picture though of the two partners in crime :

 

[jonny testaronny]

One thing for sure is that the criteria was tightened in 2004 so many previous "borderline" results would now be positive.

For what it's worth, in the August 2005 L'Equipe matrix showing the Chatenay-Malabry retest of all the 1999 samples, three fell in the "suspicious" range using the original testing method (69, 81, and 78 percent non-endogenous isoforms). All three were positive for EPO using the alternative methods the lab applied (visual interpretation and mathematical modelling). LA's six were positive using all three methods. Sorry, don't have a link, only hardcopy.

 

[Topangarider]

Where there is smoke, there is an angry witch hunt mob.

Yes Polish, people pursued as witches have historically been wealthy and powerful men. And the mobs engaging in witch hunts usually followed federal rules of evidence.

The one historically accurate role that Lance fills is his blasphemous elevation of himself to the status of a (false) prophet

 

[thehog]

As has been pointed out the Lab Director in 2001 was Laurent Rivier - Saugy did not take over until 2002.

More to the point; Whats the deputy head and soon to be head of one of the largest testing labs in the world doing taking blood samples as stated by Saugy! Surely this is the role of the tester? Not a man who by his on admission was providing lectures on the topic. Rolling his sleeves up and taking blood samples from cyclists? The deputy head? or was a chance meeting with Mr. Armstrong an offer to good to pass up? Separation of duties wouldn't have gone astray.

Its been suggested that the blood sample collection was a smoke screen for the head to make visit with his team then provide the required information on how such a suspicious reading occurred to avoid future detection.

Poor Floyd. He never had an opportunity to meet lab directors.

 

[Benotti69]

Where there is smoke, there is an angry witch hunt mob.

Yes Polish, people pursued as witches have historically been wealthy and powerful men. And the mobs engaging in witch hunts usually followed federal rules of evidence.

The one historically accurate role that Lance fills is his blasphemous elevation of himself to the status of a (false) prophet

Very nice.

 

[sniper]

"Where there is smoke, there is fire, and the forest is smoldering around Armstrong right now."

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-dwyre-lance-armstrong-20110528,0,6175474.column?track=rss

great article.

To add irony and relevance to the story, the author seems to have drawn on different sources:

This one definitely inspired by Polish:

Famous cyclist, seven-time winner of the Tour de France, is accused of enhancing his performance. Yawn.

Or this one, reflecting McQuaid's philosophy:

— We shouldn't care what he did 10 years ago, especially since he is a cancer survivor and has done so much, through his foundation, to help others.

— Why does the government keep spending our tax money on investigations of athletes when there are so many other needs?

 

[Exroadman24902]

so the lab scientist was on a routine visit to get blood and outlined how a + would come about. Hardly evidence of a cover up. If this is what Jeff is spending 50 million dollars on, he's wasting time. 2 material witness for the defence from 1999-2001 USPS said they saw no doping...but that didn't get reported either-only the two who did. 12 of 23 jurors have to vote true bill within 6 months. Who's beating on it not?

 

[GreasyMonkey]

so the lab scientist was on a routine visit to get blood and outlined how a + would come about. Hardly evidence of a cover up. If this is what Jeff is spending 50 million dollars on, he's wasting time. 2 material witness for the defence from 1999-2001 USPS said they saw no doping...but that didn't get reported either-only the two who did. 12 of 23 jurors have to vote true bill within 6 months. Who's beating on it not?

Yawn.... So how much is the Uniballer and PS paying you, or are you such a fan-boy you do his bidding for the joy of sniffing his chamois?

 

[Exroadman24902]

Yawn.... So how much is the Uniballer and PS paying you, or are you such a fan-boy you do his bidding for the joy of sniffing his chamois?

I juat read on velonews the results were suspect but not linked to Armstrong. I also read they met during a routine visit to take blood. This is a non story. move on. And it's not good for Novitsky. Nothing can be found here. Every rider who says they saw no doping is equally as deserving of respect as those who say he did dope. You people are so lacking in critical thinking skills with your foaming at the mouth bash Armstrong rhetoric you haven't even managed to ponder that Hincapie's non denial of admission is a deliberate strategy by Hincapie and LA. I beleive let sleeping dogs lie..you don't buddy!

 

[sniper]

I juat read on velonews the results were suspect but not linked to Armstrong. I also read they met during a routine visit to take blood. This is a non story. move on. And it's not good for Novitsky. Nothing can be found here. Every rider who says they saw no doping is equally as deserving of respect as those who say he did dope. You people are so lacking in critical thinking skills with your foaming at the mouth bash Armstrong rhetoric you haven't even managed to ponder that Hincapie's non denial of admission is a deliberate strategy by Hincapie and LA. I beleive let sleeping dogs lie..you don't buddy!

dude, let lance go. his äss is not yours to defend. unless you got your head stuck up in it, of course.