Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[DomesticDomestique]

As long as TheHog hasn't said anything about it, then we might have reason to believe it to be true!

 

[Polish]

Oh yeah! It's coming!! Any moment now!! Drumroll!!!

Drumroll....that was a great one.

But more like a 14 month long In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida Drum Solo.

Remember last year when Lance was going to get indicted and perp walked before Tour started?
Or ended?
And 70,000 pages of testimony from Greg.
Multitude of fanboy and hater Grand Jury testimonies and leaks.
WSJ/SundayTimes/SI/Nightline/60mins/Outside/SSDD
So many predictions of the impending indictments.
Very entertaining.

No, the Indictments will NOT be preceded by a Drumroll.
But when the indictments are near, you may hear gentle organ church music lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJV9-abbk_Q
.
.
.

 

[Cimacoppi49]

Lull Before the Storm

This may be the lull. Even so, the Lance show isn't playing too well in Austin these days.
http://www.austinpost.org/content/how-do-you-feel-about-lance-now

 

[mewmewmew13]

Lol, you are showing your age! That was a great song.....

Susan

Hey that was a great album!

 

[powerste]

This may be the lull. Even so, the Lance show isn't playing too well in Austin these days.
http://www.austinpost.org/content/how-do-you-feel-about-lance-now

The Facebook discussion going on in the comments makes our Clinic look pretty good. As for the article, I liked this:

Armstrong's tactic of savagely attacking anyone who dares to accuse him has kept him free so far. It's also left him without a whole lot of friendly faces who have his back.

There may be plenty of anonymous lemmings who still adore him (albeit a dwindling number), but as for people who might actually have his back as he deals with the legal/monetary/PR/etc issues, he has no friends - only employees.

BTW depending on how things shake out moving forward, the legal attacking he's done may bite him hard in the backside too..think SCA, Times/Walsh, etc...

 

[DomesticDomestique]

The most interesting piece I found in the article was this quote:

Most interesting (and damning) in this author's opinion though is this post from 2010. It shows all the top finishers during Lance's seven tour victories who were later caught cheating.

I felt it was particularly relevant to ChrisE's recent debate. While I don't agree with much of ChrisE's points, this quote sure lends credence to his argument that Lance needed to keep the Ullrich's, Pantani's, Basso's, Mayo's, Beloki's, etc from testing positive in order to maintain his own image.

 

[Oldman]

Mea culpa.

Let's start a Music for Oldies thread in teh Cafe and let this one get back on topic.

New Riders of the PUrple Sage, haven' thought of them in ages.....

Susan

Too much Purple Sage and you would forget you ever heard them.
So the Clemens trial is not looking good for old jocks on dope. Is that enough of a segue'?

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

The off-topic "ramblings" have been moved to the Cafe.

Susan

 

[Cimacoppi49]

The Facebook discussion going on in the comments makes our Clinic look pretty good. As for the article, I liked this:

There may be plenty of anonymous lemmings who still adore him (albeit a dwindling number), but as for people who might actually have his back as he deals with the legal/monetary/PR/etc issues, he has no friends - only employees.

BTW depending on how things shake out moving forward, the legal attacking he's done may bite him hard in the backside too..think SCA, Times/Walsh, etc...

Good points. When push came to shove, it looks like George was just an ex-employee.

I posted a comment yesterday on that Austin Facebook page that appears to have been edited out. I said testing negative means nothing and that Armstrong is alleged to have had positive test results. More later. Found it. Never mind.............

 

[thirteen]

Clemens mistrial...

 

[ChrisE]

I felt it was particularly relevant to ChrisE's recent debate. While I don't agree with much of ChrisE's points, this quote sure lends credence to his argument that Lance needed to keep the Ullrich's, Pantani's, Basso's, Mayo's, Beloki's, etc from testing positive in order to maintain his own image.

You don't agree with much of what I say, then pick something out of the argument that supports what I was saying. So, what do you believe now?

 

[DirtyWorks]

...I felt it was particularly relevant to ChrisE's recent debate. While I don't agree with much of ChrisE's points, this quote sure lends credence to his argument that Lance needed to keep the Ullrich's, Pantani's, Basso's, Mayo's, Beloki's, etc from testing positive in order to maintain his own image.

No.

Why?
1. That reasoning is complicated and suggests an unrealistic allocation of political and economic influence. Simple explanations are most likely.
2. It completely ignores more powerful forces like Hein and Pat, and the ASO.

 

[Polish]

No.

Why?
1. That reasoning is complicated and suggests an unrealistic allocation of political and economic influence. Simple explanations are most likely.
2. It completely ignores more powerful forces like Hein and Pat, and the ASO.

Yes, simple explanations are certainly most likely.

But saying Hein and Pat's "powerful forces" propelled Lance to 7 in a row is silly.

Could they propel Wiggins into 7 in a row?
Propel Cadel into 7 in a row?
Andy? Alberto?

And propel them into 7 in a row without busting their competitors?
Lance's competitors were not busted while fighting against Lance.

Yes, simple explanations are most likey.
And amusing that it takes some people sooo long to see the simple explanation.

You DO know what the simple explanation for Lance's 7 in a row don't you?
Deep down you know right?
Don't make me say it.
Don't make me use the "A" word lol.

 

[powerste]

Yes, simple explanations are certainly most likely.
<snip>

You DO know what the simple explanation for Lance's 7 in a row don't you?
Deep down you know right?
Don't make me say it.
Don't make me use the "A" word lol.

Yes, we know:
-Higher cadence
-Better reconnaissance
-Perfected diet
-Team purpose-built for the Tour
-Laser-like focus
-Change to his body composition post-cancer
-Busting his @ss on the bike 6 hours a day
-<Insert additional myth here>
-Exclusive retention of Dr. Ferrari's services

Sing it with me, "One of these is not like the others..."

 

[Benotti69]

Yes, we know:
-Higher cadence
-Better reconnaissance
-Perfected diet
-Team purpose-built for the Tour
-Laser-like focus
-Change to his body composition post-cancer
-Busting his @ss on the bike 6 hours a day
-<Insert additional myth here>
-Exclusive retention of Dr. Ferrari's services

Sing it with me, "One of these is not like the others..."

- bribing the UCI....

 

[skippythepinhead]

You DO know what the simple explanation for Lance's 7 in a row don't you?
Deep down you know right?
Don't make me say it.
Don't make me use the "A" word lol.

Androstenedione?

 

[Polish]

- bribing the UCI....

That is already on the list...#16 below:

Lance's Attributes of Awesomeness
1) Post Cancer Mind-Body Transformation
2) Lazer-Like Focus on the TdF
3) His Team Mates
4) Training Training Training Training
5) Training at Altitude
6) EPO/Blood Doping/ETC and training with Dr Ferarri.
7)Tactical Genius for a DS
8) Focus on Diet, Weighing his Food, Targeted Weight Loss
9) Higher Cadence
10) Sleeping in a Tent
11) Race Course Recons
12) Assos Chamois Creme
13) Inspiration & Motivation from the Fan's
14) High Pain Threshold
15) Mental Tenacity
16) Savvy Businessman ie bribes and "politics"
17) Wind tunnel testing
18) Best Wheelsets
19) Aero Dimples on his shorts
20) Support from his families.
21) Completely selfish, self absorbed, dedicated, complete determination to win,24-7
22) Sleeps like a baby without anxiety
23) Ability to avoid crashes
24) Ability to recover from crashes.
25) Ability to handle the pressures/obligations while wearing Yellow.
26) Ability to control the Peloton. Patron's Patron. Patronissimo.
27) Musketeer Status on the Team.
28) Team Support - Mechanics, Chefs, Soigneurs etc

 

[MacRoadie]

Don't make me use the "A" word lol.

1. Anabolics?
2. Actovegin?
3. Androstenone (see #6)
4. Advanced (as in testing notices)?
5. Autologous (as in blood doping)?
6. Anderson (as in look what I found in Lance's bathroom)?
7. Andreu (as in the hospital room)?

So many "A" words...

 

[Polish]

1. Anabolics?
2. Actovegin?
3. Androstenone (see #6)
4. Advanced (as in testing notices)?
5. Autologous (as in blood doping)?
6. Anderson (as in look what I found in Lance's bathroom)?
7. Andreu (as in the hospital room)?

So many "A" words...

I will add all those to the list, #6, as ETC.

But I did forget about Team Support yikes.
Helpers like Mr Anderson, and Chef Duffy, and Emma and all the rest.
Mechanics, Soigneurs, etc - key part of Lance's 7 in a Row.
Thanks for the input!

 

[DomesticDomestique]

You don't agree with much of what I say, then pick something out of the argument that supports what I was saying. So, what do you believe now?

No, I don't believe you. I believe that while the UCI may have been covering for other people, those people were unaware of said cover and therefore kept their doping under a threshold in hopes of avoiding detection. Where as Lance signed the check and knew full well that he was protected and therefore doped much more heavily than everyone else. This is why he won despite being vastly inferior in the talent department to the likes of Ullrich, Basso, etc.

The point of my previous post was to award you a point in the debate, but not enough points to win that debate. Here is someone saying that the most damning piece of evidence against LA is how doped the competition was. So his opinion is evidence that:
A) Yes, Lance's image benefited from his competition's apparent cleanliness during his run.
B) Lance's image was hindered by the subsequent positives of all of his competition.
C) Due to points A&B, it might have been in Lance's best interest to protect those riders in addition to himself.

But did that happen, in my opinion... NO!

The arguments in here are always treated as being somewhat black and white. I can recognize the shade of grey which is the strength in your argument while still disagreeing with your argument as a whole.

 

[MarkvW]

It gets really thick.

So, supposedly, the UCI was covering for dopers and the dopers didn't know it?

Even the most brain-damaged street doper knows when enforcement is down in a certain area.

 

[MacRoadie]

I will add all those to the list, #6, as ETC.

But I did forget about Team Support yikes.
Helpers like Mr Anderson, and Chef Duffy, and Emma and all the rest.
Mechanics, Soigneurs, etc - key part of Lance's 7 in a Row.
Thanks for the input!

Make sure you add one more:

Michele Ferrari....

 

[MacRoadie]

An iteresting quote from a 10 year old article on LA and Ferrari:

Armstrong's agent and lawyer Bill Stapleton describes Ferrari as a brilliant scientist with an awful public reputation who has made very, very irresponsible comments. With complete confidence, he concludes: "I'm not worried, because he [Armstrong] will never, ever test positive."

Drugs issue refuses to go away due to winner's Ferrari links

That's some serious confidence there. Did Bill know something?...

 

[ChrisE]

You know guys I said upthread I would get a wild hair one day and add up the number of tests that each of LA's major competitors took in the TdF during those 7 years, compared to him. I will mix in the statistical probability of not getting chosen for a random during those years by those same competitors, based upon Velodude's rules upthread. I haven't had that wild hair yet.

But, off the top of my head, sans randoms I am pretty positive JU was only tested once in 2003. He never won any other stage, and never wore yellow.

I think Once won the TTT a couple of years so maybe Beloki was tested a couple of times. Vino, won one stage. Basso won one stage. TH and Mayo one stage. Kloden won zero stages. Neither did Rumsas. None of these guys wore yellow.

Do all riders get tested before the start??????

Compare that to the number of stages won by LA when not in yellow and when he was in yellow. How many is that? 75 or 80, or more? He was tested many more times than his major competition combined.

When I first threw this out I wasn't considering this. How many times was the competition tested, and factor that into how many times the tests are beaten. Then factor in how many times LA was tested.

Comparing that to the Giro for example, and Garzelli and Simoni were popped with many less tests than LA.

Maybe there was a wink-wink agreement that any positive was bad for the image. That would make sense for the reasons I have stated and DD/Mac have stated.

But, statistically I tend to back off now after thinking along these lines. It can be argued that obviously his competition never tested positive because they were hardly ever tested. LA was very dominant and was tested alot, and conclusions can be drawn.

Call me a flip-flopper, but I am back in the shrugged shoulder camp.

 

[MacRoadie]

You know guys I said upthread I would get a wild hair one day and add up the number of tests that each of LA's major competitors took in the TdF during those 7 years, compared to him. I will mix in the statistical probability of not getting chosen for a random during those years by those same competitors, based upon Velodude's rules upthread. I haven't had that wild hair yet.

But, off the top of my head, sans randoms I am pretty positive JU was only tested once in 2003. He never won any other stage, and never wore yellow.

I think Once won the TTT a couple of years so maybe Beloki was tested a couple of times. Vino, won one stage. Basso won one stage. TH and Mayo one stage. Kloden won zero stages. Neither did Rumsas. None of these guys wore yellow.

Do all riders get tested before the start??????

Compare that to the number of stages won by LA when not in yellow and when he was in yellow. How many is that? 75 or 80, or more? He was tested many more times than his major competition combined.

When I first threw this out I wasn't considering this. How many times was the competition tested, and factor that into how many times the tests are beaten. Then factor in how many times LA was tested.

Comparing that to the Giro for example, and Garzelli and Simoni were popped with many less tests than LA.

Maybe there was a wink-wink agreement that any positive was bad for the image. That would make sense for the reasons I have stated and DD/Mac have stated.

But, statistically I tend to back off now after thinking along these lines. It can be argued that obviously his competition never tested positive because they were hardly ever tested. LA was very dominant and was tested alot, and conclusions can be drawn.

Call me a flip-flopper, but I am back in the shrugged shoulder camp.

Nice to see you rethinking your position and brining salient points to the discussion.

Now, go back to being obtuse and argumentative. As it is, there's nothing exciting going on in here (unless you include people applying phrenology to the lumps on Johnny Hoogerland's @ss)...