Official Lance Armstrong Thread **READ POST #1 BEFORE POSTING**

[ChrisE]

Yeah brodeal, you halfwit.

Cut our newest forum member a break.

 

[palmerq]

Hello everyone, we see that you all think this fellow(academy) is bpc or someother alias and the moderators are contemplating this and if there is any action needing to be taken, so stop accusing him of lying about himself and so on, or I will have to give out warnings.. If his arguments are wrong or flawed just tell him and discuss it with him or if it is too much just ignore it.

and academycc dont call people halfwits or use other insults please..

 

[Mambo95]

LA thread - post to be released "back into the wild" [Francois]

my local newscast cp24.com has just tweeted this; Barry Bonds has been sentenced to 30 days of house arrest and two years of probation for giving misleading testimony before a grand jury.

So can this be used as an indication of Novitzky's work ?

If so, then I'm not hopeful.

He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him.

Justice, unfortunately, isn't just about right vs wrong, it's also about cost vs results, which greatly works in Armstrong's favour.

 

[BroDeal]

He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him.

Justice, unfortunately, isn't just about right vs wrong, it's also about cost vs results, which greatly works in Armstrong's favour.

Nope. Armstrong and friends owe the Postal service treble damages for $30+ million fraud. This investigation is going to turn a profit.

 

[Velodude]

He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him.

Justice, unfortunately, isn't just about right vs wrong, it's also about cost vs results, which greatly works in Armstrong's favour.

Where is the precedent for LA supporters to rely on if Bonds is only the sideline perjury fall out from BALCO and not the target?

 

[Mambo95]

Where is the precedent for LA supporters to rely on if Bonds is only the sideline perjury fall out from BALCO and not the target?

It has nothing to do with LA supporters. Novitsky, like any public official, has to justify his expenditure and the Bonds case won't have done any favours.

Armstrong's best hope at the moment is a lack of willingness from the Justice Department (or whoever Novitsky's boss is). And the Bonds case helps him here.

Despite what many think on here, this case isn't top of the US Justice department's priority list. There will be a cost vs. result consideration to be made. As always.

I know that many in the Clinic think that this case should be pursued regardless of cost, but the US government will have other ideas, particularly in these times of economic trouble.

Maybe the case will progress and maybe it's been dropped already. Who knows? But just stop thinking that the US government think this case is as important as you do.

 

[MacRoadie]

It has nothing to do with LA supporters. Novitsky, like any public official, has to justify his expenditure and the Bonds case won't have done any favours.

Herein lies the fundamental problem a huge number of people on here have with this whole affair.

Jeff Novitsky is an investigator with the US Food & Drug Administartion. That's it. He's just the cop. While he may be well-known, he is still just an investigator. He's not even close to being at the top of the pecking order in his own agency.

There are a number of levels above Novitsky, just within the FDA. Then you have the prosecuting side of things with the Justice Department and the US Attorney's office. All the way up to the Attorney General. EVERYONE in those offices is above Novitsky's pay grade.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, his recommendations carry a great deal of weight, but these investigations are vetted so high up the chain of command at each of the involved agencies, by people with real political collateral on the line.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him.

Justice, unfortunately, isn't just about right vs wrong, it's also about cost vs results, which greatly works in Armstrong's favour.

It does if you misquote or make up numbers to suit your arguement - gotta link to the "estimated $70 million" to investigate "him"?

 

[Race Radio]

He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him.

Justice, unfortunately, isn't just about right vs wrong, it's also about cost vs results, which greatly works in Armstrong's favour.

You are welcome to pretend that the Bonds case and the Armstrong case have something in common....but they don't. Nobody is going to sit in prison for Armstrong.

So it perjury and obstruction of justice OK for everyone or just rich people?

 

[MacRoadie]

It does if you misquote or make up numbers to suit your arguement - gotta link to the "estimated $70 million" to investigate "him"?

Good luck with that one. The $70 (or $75 depending on what you read) million number has been popping up on blogs and in Tweets and on forums like this one since last April. Curiously, there never seems to be an AP or Reuters or some other mainstream news outlet attributed in any of them.

People want to (deperately) believe that, because he was the last party "standing", this whole investigation was about Barry Bonds. In truth, the main investigation (the part that likely did amount to possibly tens of millions of dollars) was about BALCO, Victor Conte, and the manufacture, distribution, and illegal use of designer drugs.

Bonds was an after-thought until he decided he wasn't going to apply some hGh to his nutsack and grow some new balls and in turn woudln't admit to using the stuff, or where he got it.

 

[Race Radio]

It has nothing to do with LA supporters. Novitsky, like any public official, has to justify his expenditure and the Bonds case won't have done any favours.

Armstrong's best hope at the moment is a lack of willingness from the Justice Department (or whoever Novitsky's boss is). And the Bonds case helps him here.

You are confused. Novitzky does not run the case and has little say on if it goes forward. He is only one investigator, there are others from the IRS, FBI, DEA also assigned to the case.

People are dreaming if they think the Armstrong case is going nowhere.

 

[Mambo95]

You are welcome to pretend that the Bonds case and the Armstrong case have something in common....but they don't.

And you are welcome to think that this important as the Nuremburg trials... but it's not

 

[Mambo95]

It does if you misquote or make up numbers to suit your arguement - gotta link to the "estimated $70 million" to investigate "him"?

I'll admit that I have no actual source. I typed something like how much cost bonds case into google and got a reference to someone called Michael Wilbon on ESPN saying it cost $70m.

Regardless, an 8 year federal investigation doesn't cheap.

You may mistake me for an Armstrong fan. I'm not and never really have been. But remember back in 1999 when you where all fans (and you were, because you can only hate so much someone you once loved), there was a little voice saying 'this is not right he's doping'. It was an unpopular opinion and the fans railed against it. But from that little acorn an oak grew.

Now, I'm that little voice saying this case won't go anywhere. Maybe I'll be completely wrong but that's my opinion. But just as there are deluded LA fans today clinging to the truth, maybe there will be Clinic fanboys still waiting for Tuesday in 2017.

 

[Race Radio]

And you are welcome to thing that this important as the Nuremburg trials... but it's not

Really? You going to invoke Godwin's Law on this? Where have I said this? I have never written or infured that this was as important as the Nurembrug trials.

In fact I have written over and over the best thing for everyone was that Armstrong works out a plea deal.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'll admit that I have no actual source. I typed something like how much cost bonds case into google and got a reference to someone called Michael Wilbon on ESPN saying it cost $70m.

Regardless, an 8 year federal investigation doesn't cheap.

You may mistake me for an Armstrong fan. I'm not and never really have been. But remember back in 1999 when you where all fans (and you were, because you can only hate so much someone you once loved), there was a little voice saying 'this is not right he's doping'. It was an unpopular opinion and the fans railed against it. But from that little acorn an oak grew.

Now, I'm that little voice saying this case won't go anywhere. Maybe I'll be completely wrong but that's my opinion. But just as there are deluded LA fans today clinging to the truth, maybe there will be Clinic fanboys still waiting for Tuesday in 2017.

When you write "He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him" - I don't believe it is a mistake to assume you are an Armstrong fan.

The $70 million that you didn't link would be for the complete BALCO investigation, which for 8 years work is not too alarming.

Here is Sports Illustrated estimation on what it cost to go after "him".

The case has dragged on so long, however, and the government has spent so much time and money (around $6 million, by one estimate), and investigators have displayed what has appeared to be such a fixation on nailing Bonds, that another question has emerged that the jury will be asked to consider: Is Barry Bonds a victim?

 

[Mambo95]

In fact I have written over and over the best thing for everyone was that Armstrong works out a plea deal.

And I've written many times that I think that this case will fizzle out due to budget considerations in Novitsky's department. (I'm aware that governments all over the world are making cuts). But for saying as much I'm branded an LA fan by the cult mentality.

Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you're Vladamir or Estragon

 

[Velodude]

And you are welcome to thing that this important as the Nuremburg trials... but it's not

It is for the target and witnesses.

Barry Bonds, Tammy Thomas & Marion Jones have as witnesses detrimentally experienced the force of the law for their dishonest conduct in the BALCO case. And they were not targets.

It reinforces the message to any witness that perjuring during hearings and lying to investigators is not in your best self interest.

It is now important to them as they must regret their conduct by now having a criminal record. I doubt, with the exception of the Oakley rep, that any witness in the LA case will now put LA's interest before their own interest.

 

[Mambo95]

When you write "He's also been fined $4000, which will hopefully be put towards the estimated $70 million it cost to investigate him" - I don't believe it is a mistake to assume you are an Armstrong fan.

No, I write it as someone who works in the public sector on legal matters. Do you think that's a good result? Was that worth the money? Would you back the same guy on a similar case when you're laying off staff?

I'm just trying to ---[deflate]--- your expectations that this going to end in a big show trial and a jail sentence. I just don't see it.

 

[Race Radio]

And I've written many times that I think that this case will fizzle out due to budget considerations in Novitsky's department. (I'm aware that governments all over the world are making cuts). But for saying as much I'm branded an LA fan by the cult mentality.

Maybe I'm wrong, but maybe you're Vladamir or Estragon

You are wrong. There is no indication that the Armstrong case will fizzle out. Why would they continue to expand the investigation, add investigators and agencies if it was going nowhere?

People have irrational expectations of how long an investigation takes. The Bonds case took over 7 years. Armstrong could take much longer

 

[Race Radio]

No, I write it as someone who works in the public sector on legal matters. Do you think that's a good result? Was that worth the money? Would you back the same guy on a similar case when you're laying off staff?

I'm just trying to put a little *** in your expectations that this going to end in a big show trial and a jail sentence. I just don't see it.

Do rich people get a pass on all crime or just perjury and obstruction?

In the future many look at Bonds spending $15 million, being a convicted felon, and having his legacy erased and will think twice about lying to a Federal investigator and obstructing justice. In the long run this will save far more then the $6 million the case cost.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, I write it as someone who works in the public sector on legal matters. Do you think that's a good result? Was that worth the money? Would you back the same guy on a similar case when you're laying off staff?

I'm just trying to put a little *** in your expectations that this going to end in a big show trial and a jail sentence. I just don't see it.

*** edited by mod ***- as you are basically trying to prove something that I do not think, with numbers that don't back your opinion.

 

[Mambo95]

You are wrong. There is no indication that the Armstrong case will fizzle out. Why would they continue to expand the investigation, add investigators and agencies if it was going nowhere?

People have irrational expectations of how long an investigation takes. The Bonds case took over 7 years. Armstrong could take much longer

Yeah, but they had Bonds giving testimony within three months of Balco breaking.

Frankly, I don't really care what happens (the Contador case is more important). It won't change my life or my enjoyment of cycling one jot. I always preferred Ullrich and he was cheat too. I still prefer him.

On the other hand, if I am right, and nothing happens, how long will you keep hoping?

 

[MacRoadie]

It reinforces the message to any witness that perjuring during hearings and lying to investigators is not in your best self interest.

This is how I see it too. The prosecution of Bonds sends a message to all future federal witnesses, that perjury and obstruction of justice isn't in their best interest.

Can someone like Bonds weather the storm? Certainly, he can. Especially since he doesn't care what anyone thinks about him and is happy to be left alone. He also has plenty of money to afford the best lawyers and pay them over the course of 8 years.

Can Joe Public afford to stay home from work for 8 years and spend his entire net worth on legal fees? $800 an hour lawyers eat through the old 401K pretty quick. The feds are saying "We'll go after Barry Bonds with all his resources, what do you think we'll do with you?". It's like that old addage about finding the biggest and baddest guy in prison on your first day, and punching him in the mouth. It sends a message that you're not to messed with, by anyone.

I would venture that they expect to save money in the long run by reducing costs on prosecuting quite a few perjury and obstruction cases in the future, when witnesses and lawyers realize how seriously the feds take it.

 

[Mambo95]

Probably not the first time you heard this, but your little *** does not impress me - as you are basically trying to prove something that I do not think, with numbers that don't back your opinion.

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just giving an opinion - no different than picking a winner of a bike race. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm amused at how people rage against my prediction. Are they scared it may be right?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm just giving an opinion - no different than picking a winner of a bike race. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm amused at how people rage against my prediction. Are they scared it may be right?

You don't have an opinion, you have a hope.
Your "opinion" was based on a figure of $70 million - yet, when I show you that it wasn't even a tenth of that you still hold that "opinion". How?

Nor have I "raged" against your "prediction"- thats another strawman like the hate stuff you posted earlier - I am merely exposing its weakness and your hypocrisy.