Official London Olympics Doping thread

[Zam_Olyas]

She is the reigning Worlds' 200 M IM champion, so no surprises there.

I'm more interested in the performance of the 15 year old Lithuanian girl who smashed the field in the 100M Breast stroke in the heats and Semis. She has emerged virtually from nowhere.

The 15 yrs old won.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

US coach has suspicions about Ye Shiwen's world record Olympic swim. Crikey he even compared it with Michelle Smith's performance in Atlanta in 1996 and her swim that time was so obvious there was something up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/30/ye-shiwen-world-record-olympics-2012

And Vino has got a bit of back up from a UK journalist in The Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/30/london-2012-olympic-alexandr-vinokourov

Olympic record by Ye

 

[VeloGirl]

NT Times article about Ye Shewin and suspicion of doping in general. Sounds very much like this was written by cycling fans - only because we have all been burned before. Trust no longer comes easy.

"Euphemism serves as scar tissue that has formed around guileless trust."


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/31/s...ver-swimmers-success.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Includes history of doping in swimming and China, imparticular.

 

[D-Queued]

US coach has suspicions about Ye Shiwen's world record Olympic swim. Crikey he even compared it with Michelle Smith's performance in Atlanta in 1996 and her swim that time was so obvious there was something up.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jul/30/ye-shiwen-world-record-olympics-2012

And Vino has got a bit of back up from a UK journalist in The Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/jul/30/london-2012-olympic-alexandr-vinokourov

"People are free to voice their opinion and say what they think but the man from Kazakhstan has not failed a drugs test for five years and should be congratulated for a superb ride. "

Fortunately, its only five years and not like he passed 500 tests or anything. Nothing to be suspicious about.

Dave.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Olympic record by Ye

Another race where all her competitors saw of her was her feet.
At the end looked more sleepy than tired.

ET's big sister.

 

[Cloxxki]

Ye shiwen according to her competition, look like superwoman, and that has usually been a precursor of a positive test. Did those women see her in the showers, or does she display such a figure around the pool as well? I don't see it in pictures, and have no time for TV.
I suppose she may be the first "batch" of genetically doped athletes, so they don't need substances anymore, they're good to go as they are, just train and eat well, and will medals?

 

[the sceptic]

Can someone explain to me how 15 year olds can win gold in swimming? doping or not, thats pretty crazy. Is technique more important than i think?

 

[hrotha]

Can someone explain to me how 15 year olds can win gold in swimming? doping or not, thats pretty crazy. Is technique more important than i think?

Yeah, I wonder about that too. Gymnasts I can see, since flexibility and having less weight are big advantages, but why does swimming favour the younglings so much?

 

[Cloxxki]

Yeah, I wonder about that too. Gymnasts I can see, since flexibility and having less weight are big advantages, but why does swimming favour the younglings so much?

Maybe bone density plays a part, or even muscle and fat density? Swimming is about floatation for a big part. I sink like a brick myself.

 

[luckyboy]

I laughed when I heard about/saw Ye Shiwen.

Olympics are reassuring for a cycling fan. We are all in the same boat. Actually athletics and swimming are probably on their own boat stuck in a violent storm somewhere.

 

[will10]

Yeah, I wonder about that too. Gymnasts I can see, since flexibility and having less weight are big advantages, but why does swimming favour the younglings so much?

I understand that starting to swim early is a big advantage, because your body develops in the "right" way as you've already got the technique nailed. Other than that I have no answer for this ridiculous performance.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I understand that starting to swim early is a big advantage, because your body develops in the "right" way as you've already got the technique nailed. Other than that I have no answer for this ridiculous performance.

It doesn´t cut it. Why are we not seeing 15 yr old pitchers in the majors then?

Edit: And as i learned, the human body reaches the best performances at around age 28. That goes in line with cycling, football, baseball, etc. performances. OTOH, in swimming you are actually dead at age 28. I think something really wrong over there.

 

[The Hitch]

is Cesar Cielo at this olympics btw?

Yeah, I wonder about that too. Gymnasts I can see, since flexibility and having less weight are big advantages, but why does swimming favour the younglings so much?

Certainly in recent years people under 18 have absolutely no problem competing at the top. Hell even that American girl who won gold today (and was the pre race fav) and is hyped as woman phelps is only 17.

But if we look back before say the 90's, was it also like that?

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

is Cesar Cielo at this olympics btw?



Certainly in recent years people under 18 have absolutely no problem competing at the top. Hell even that American girl who won gold today (and was the pre race fav) and is hyped as woman phelps is only 17.

But if we look back before say the 90's, was it also like that?

As I understand it, in swimming top quality performances at a relatively late age seem to raise more eyebrows than top quality performances at a younger age. I'm not entirely sure why.

 

[slowspoke]

As I understand it, in swimming top quality performances at a relatively late age seem to raise more eyebrows than top quality performances at a younger age. I'm not entirely sure why.

Okay, I'm answering a lot of posts here. Water is far denser than air so technique/talent does have a huge effect, far more than say, cycling. In swimming, you can tell by the age of 14/15 who the superstars are going to be. Phelps/Thorpe etc. Its not unusual for women to be this good early on - see Janet Evans as one example. I have personally witnessed some incredible performances from 13/14 year olds destroying older swimmers and to a certain extent I did so myself and I was certainly clean.
However, there is no doubt some of these swims have been deeply suspicious and I don't doubt there is a lot of doping involved.

Hope that helps,

Slowspoke

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

But the same can be said about billard players. Actually it´s pretty simple: If you can make 100-breaks at age 10, you´ll make it. And if you clear the table at pool with ease every time you step at the table by age 10, you´ll make it. Still the best players (like Hendry, O´Sullivan, Bustamente, you name it) don´t beat the pros before they are at least 18.

Or take the 16 yr old refugee from Cuba. If he throws 100 mph, you know he´ll make it. Still i don´t see boys in the majors, but grown up men...

 

[hrotha]

But if it was all about the technique, wouldn't it get better the more you practiced, no matter how talented you were to begin with? There has to be a physiological reason.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Okay, I'm answering a lot of posts here. Water is far denser than air so technique/talent does have a huge effect, far more than say, cycling.

I don't follow competitive swimming at all, but I swim enough to know that technique is indeed a much bigger element than in other endurance sports. But I would have thought that technique would be something which would improve with age.

 

[Frosty]

A few examples of people doing well when very young.

Boris Becker was only 17 when winning Wimbledon for the first time. Michael Owen was only 18 when scoring his first goals for England. Sachin Tendulkar was 17 and 112 days when scoring his first century - against England in a match-saving rearguard effort. Bowlers in test matches have taken 5 wickets when only 17 or 18. Zola Budd broke the women's 5000 metre record at the age of 17.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

But if it was all about the technique, wouldn't it get better the more you practiced, no matter how talented you were to begin with? There has to be a physiological reason.

I don't follow competitive swimming at all, but I swim enough to know that technique is indeed a much bigger element than in other endurance sports. But I would have thought that technique would be something which would improve with age.

That´s why in technique sports experience/age matters. You just don´t see boys in the big leagues or in billards.

The only reason that makes sense to me (for now) is tradition. The old coaches gave their knowledge to the new coaches. For the better or worse (see cycling). So if some guys in the 40s decided: Go and waste the young talent early, b/c they are easier to be manipulated (or whatever) than grown ups, then this practise is given to the next generation of coaches again and again, up to today.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

A few examples of people doing well when very young.

Boris Becker was only 17 when winning Wimbledon for the first time. Michael Owen was only 18 when scoring his first goals for England. Sachin Tendulkar was 17 and 112 days when scoring his first century - against England in a match-saving rearguard effort. Bowlers in test matches have taken 5 wickets when only 17 or 18. Zola Budd broke the women's 5000 metre record at the age of 17.

Why you didn´t mention Pelé? Anyway, what you are doing is cherry picking. No a good way to prove or disprove points.

Anyway: We just see young winners all the time in swimming, while your examples above are the exception to the rule.

Edit: Not everything went wrong in cycling. The trainers knew if they waste talent early, they burn them out. Newcomers don´t ride as much as the oldtimers like Sastre who did 3 GT´s in one year... OTOH, for example Pinot and Sagan (even very talented) didn´t go to GT´s in their first pro years. I know i am also doing cherry picking here, but i think it´s knowledge in cycling forums that young riders are built cautious for GT´s.

 

[Frosty]

Why you didn´t mention Pelé? Anyway, what you are doing is cherry picking. No a good way to prove or disprove points.

Anyway: We just see young winners all the time in swimming, while your examples above are the exception to the rule.

Well ok, was just providing a few examples of people who did really well when young. Of course i am cherry picking, that was kind of the point, just showing that some people can break through when that young, so that it isnt necessarily freakish.

 

[mb2612]

A few examples of people doing well when very young.

Boris Becker was only 17 when winning Wimbledon for the first time. Michael Owen was only 18 when scoring his first goals for England. Sachin Tendulkar was 17 and 112 days when scoring his first century - against England in a match-saving rearguard effort. Bowlers in test matches have taken 5 wickets when only 17 or 18. Zola Budd broke the women's 5000 metre record at the age of 17.

While there are multiple world class swimmers at age 15-16. At 17 you are pretty much an adult but at 15? not so much.

Ye Shiwen for example has only improved 5 seconds since she was 14, which is massive starting from world class, but not unsurprising given she was 14.

Phelps, Thorpe, etc all were good really young, which contradicts almost all other sports. It's just odd that in such a technical sport you get good so young.

 

[Nick777]

I can't give you the physiology on WHY, but it is not uncommon for swimmers to be the best in the world in their mid to late teens.
For example - Phelps & Thorpe, were both 15 when they were the best in the world, and it is even more common in females.

 

[Nick777]

She was 25 seconds slower over the whole distance.

The troubling aspects were:
a) had she gone flat out, she would have broken the world record by ~5 seconds
b) her freestyle time relative to males & other historical female times.