Official London Olympics Doping thread

[Krebs cycle]

Interesting question regarding age and swimming performances. Since we know from many other sports that physiological characteristics of strength, power and endurance can continue to improve up to the late 20s (and beyond in some cases), then I figured there must be some biomechanical reason (as opposed to physiological) such as shoulder flexibility or something like that.

Best article I could find on the subject in 10min. The bits in bold are what caught my attention....

Eur J Appl Physiol. 2006 May;97(1):52-8. Epub 2006 Feb 9.
Effects of age and gender on the propelling efficiency of the arm stroke.
Zamparo P.

Abstract
The propelling efficiency of the arm stroke (etaP) was estimated in a group of 63 male and female subjects (9-59 years of age) of good technical skill, swimming the front crawl at sub-maximal speeds. etaP was calculated on the basis of values of speed (v), stroke frequency (SF) and shoulder-to-hand distance (l, calculated from measures of arm length and elbow angle during the in-sweep) as proposed by Zamparo et al. (Eur J Appl Physiol 94:134-144, 2005). In both genders, the distance covered per stroke (Ds = v/SF) is similar before puberty, reaches its maximum at about 20 years of age and then steadily declines. l is significantly larger in males than in females and this difference tended to offset the differences in Ds so that etaP is almost the same in male and female swimmers of the same age group and swimming ability: about 0.31 before puberty, 0.38-0.40 at about 20 years of age and about 0.25 in swimmers older than 40 years of age. The development of etaP and Ds during the life span is similar to the changes in muscle strength and power reported in the literature suggesting that these parameters are related to the ability to exert forceful (and hence effective) strokes in water. Since the energy cost of swimming (C) depends essentially on etaP and the hydrodynamic resistance (Wd), these data further suggest that differences in C between genders are mainly to be attributed to differences in Wd, whereas differences across ages can be attributed also to changes in etaP.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16468063

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So far so good. But when you waste talent eraly, it´s obvious that your "stroke range" will take a hit. Not different than Baseball pitchers who need Tommy John surgery, only that there people have a career, still un-disabled compared to swimmers at age 28.

 

[slowspoke]

I think Krebs might article may have something to do with it, also I would love to see the VO2 max's are for the top swimmers. It was never a big thing when I was racing. As an aside, one of the incredible 13 year olds made his first final this year as a 30 year old. So make of that what you will.

 

[diorgen]

Yes of course i think Aliens compete:

Her distended belly is a clear sign of IGF abuse

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Are there some studies and/or links? I´d like to know more about it, since i never saw something like this in the 80s (not even on those ugly east german "women")

 

[Krebs cycle]

So far so good. But when you waste talent eraly, it´s obvious that your "stroke range" will take a hit. Not different than Baseball pitchers who need Tommy John surgery, only that there people have a career, still un-disabled compared to swimmers at age 28.

I don't think you can even begin to compare baseball to swimming. Totally different sports. There is no influence of hydrodynamic drag whatsoever on performance in baseball. Swimming is about locomotion, efficiency and energy cost which are irrelevant in baseball pitching and batting.

From reading the abstract only of that article, it seems as though at around 20yrs of age, there exists an optimum balance between strength and anthropometric characteristics ie: up to that age you can get stronger without altering your frontal surface area and hydrodynamic drag, but after that, in order to increase strength you need to put on more muscle which might negatively affect the frontal surface area and arm stroke efficiency in some way such that it offsets the increase in strength and so performance doesn't get much better.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Then swimming and gymnastics are totally out of the norm, since in every other sport the max./best performances come at around age 28. So i am still not convinced, yet thank you anyway for your good post. But i like my theory just a little bit more (see the post about tradition).

Edit: Locomotion & efficiency are very important in ball sports. W/o locomotion talent you are nothing in baseball. And w/o efficiency, your pitching arm is dead after high school.

 

[sittingbison]

hehe that didn't take long. Apparently the reason Ye Shiwen is so quick is she has hands like buckets

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/swim...-question-chinese-success-20120731-23b6j.html

Mind you, all the pics seem to indicate her hands are relatively normal

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I've known a number of Nat'l Team swimmers from a few countries, and apart from Kreb's great info re age-related decline, I'd have to throw a legitimate ammount of burnout into the mix.

Their training programs were pretty much ludicrous in terms of the ammount of pool time they were spending. Between the psych burn of hours a day in the pool, and the stories of good swimmers blowing shoulders really early on, we may be seeing a good example of "athletic sifting" - those that can both physiologically and psychologically handle the over-load are going to be *ss-kickers. Those that can't, vanish...

If you (a nation) have a large enough talent pool, you can drive everyone into the ground and those left standing are going to be your stars.

Elite sport and attrition are pretty much synonymous.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

hehe that didn't take long. Apparently the reason Ye Shiwen is so quick is she has hands like buckets

http://www.smh.com.au/olympics/swim...-question-chinese-success-20120731-23b6j.html

Mind you, all the pics seem to indicate her hands are relatively normal

And i thought it´s the higher cadence. Anyway, i also see nothing special about her hands.

 

[D-Queued]

Well I don't get it.

Watched the 100m Women's Butterfly. They looked more like men than the 1976 GDR women's swim team.

As for why youth seems to win out, maybe you need this kind of flexibility:

Dave.

 

[Krebs cycle]

I've known a number of Nat'l Team swimmers from a few countries, and apart from Kreb's great info re age-related decline, I'd have to throw a legitimate ammount of burnout into the mix.

Their training programs were pretty much ludicrous in terms of the ammount of pool time they were spending. Between the psych burn of hours a day in the pool, and the stories of good swimmers blowing shoulders really early on, we may be seeing a good example of "athletic sifting" - those that can both physiologically and psychologically handle the over-load are going to be *ss-kickers. Those that can't, vanish...

If you (a nation) have a large enough talent pool, you can drive everyone into the ground and those left standing are going to be your stars.

Elite sport and attrition are pretty much synonymous.

Massive +1. I worked with a national team swim coach who believes that swimmers can continue to improve until their late 20s and he specifically cites this as the #1 factor that needs to be considered, planned for and avoided if you can expect to still be competing at international level when you are late 20s.

On the elite sport and attrition thing however, IMO this style of coaching is somewhat lazy. Anyone can drive an athlete into the ground with massive volume and intensity, but it takes a real artist to get the best performance out of ALL of your athletes as opposed to leaving some of them overtrained or with a career ending injury whilst others rise to the top and become gold medal winners.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Massive +1. I worked with a national team swim coach who believes that swimmers can continue to improve until their late 20s and he specifically cites this as the #1 factor that needs to be considered, planned for and avoided if you can expect to still be competing at international level when you are late 20s.

On the elite sport and attrition thing however, IMO this style of coaching is somewhat lazy. Anyone can drive an athlete into the ground with massive volume and intensity, but it takes a real artist to get the best performance out of ALL of your athletes as opposed to leaving some of them overtrained or with a career ending injury whilst others rise to the top and become gold medal winners.

And a big +1 right back at ya!

I keep hoping that the attrition style of coaching will lose its flavour with all the monitoring that is now available, and yet it continues with National Programs. Mind you, I find that many of the coaching positions tend to be filled through nepotism rather than through toughtful programing and wise coaching philosophy.

Plus, it's a lot more work to monitor athlete's recovery profiles. Much easier to blanket your pool with a generic program, and see who's left...

Sky's "realization" of early volume miles made me chuckle. I'd sequester myself (away from my team) through Dec - Mar so I could pack on the easy volume (around 1000km/week) without getting drawn into the p*ssing contests of team rides. When you're doing volume, do volume. When you throw it down, kill it!

 

[Red Lobster]

It's just odd that in such a technical sport you get good so young.

Probably helps that kids can start so young. My four year old already has a season of competitive swimming under her belt. Can already fly in the backstroke. By comparison, she is lucky if she can get the tennis racket on a sloooooow ground stroke hit right to her, never mind doing all the thing needed to play a tennis match.

 

[slowspoke]

Massive +1. I worked with a national team swim coach who believes that swimmers can continue to improve until their late 20s and he specifically cites this as the #1 factor that needs to be considered, planned for and avoided if you can expect to still be competing at international level when you are late 20s.

On the elite sport and attrition thing however, IMO this style of coaching is somewhat lazy. Anyone can drive an athlete into the ground with massive volume and intensity, but it takes a real artist to get the best performance out of ALL of your athletes as opposed to leaving some of them overtrained or with a career ending injury whilst others rise to the top and become gold medal winners.

+1 here as well. Some athletes do mature later than others. I totally believe its possible to improve until then.

For me, I started training 5 days a week from the age of seven and progressed to 11 sessions a week, averaging 40-60km, 3 Gym sessions and 1000 sit ups and 200 press ups a day from 14 years. I'd average 30ish hours a week plus school. Damn right burnout is an issue!

 

[the asian]

Well, for starters she's 15 - where would she have emerged from? Beijing olympics at 11?

European Championships 2012. Worlds 2011. She has made a 2 second improvement in 3 races. Even her coach has not expected her to break 1.06.

 

[blackcat]

NT Times article about Ye Shewin and suspicion of doping in general. Sounds very much like this was written by cycling fans - only because we have all been burned before. Trust no longer comes easy.

"Euphemism serves as scar tissue that has formed around guileless trust."


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/31/s...ver-swimmers-success.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Includes history of doping in swimming and China, imparticular.

they redacted that line out Bianchi.

Its like, they grey-ladied it to white

 

[simo1733]

While there are multiple world class swimmers at age 15-16. At 17 you are pretty much an adult but at 15? not so much.

Ye Shiwen for example has only improved 5 seconds since she was 14, which is massive starting from world class, but not unsurprising given she was 14.

Phelps, Thorpe, etc all were good really young, which contradicts almost all other sports. It's just odd that in such a technical sport you get good so young.

Ye Shiwen isn't suspect because she improved her PB but because she swam the last part of the race faster than Ryan Lochte.

 

[Cloxxki]

Her distended belly is a clear sign of IGF abuse

Or calcium bicarbonate, which is not prohibited.

 

[the asian]

Ye Shiwen isn't suspect because she improved her PB but because she swam the last part of the race faster than Ryan Lochte.

4 male swimmers bested her time in that last 50 M. Lochte had the Gold medal sewn up, so he may have taken it easy, whereas Ye was behind at the start of the FS so she had to go all out to win.

 

[buckle]

Maybe bone density plays a part, or even muscle and fat density? Swimming is about floatation for a big part. I sink like a brick myself.

Is body mass a factor in this? In decades of trying, we rarely see black athletes excel in the pool. My understanding is that black athletes have a different specific gravity to white. Can SG evolve (change detrimentally) with age? This might account for extraordinary performances by youngsters. Similarly, there might be differences between female and male SG. Sorry guys but I don't have the physics and the biology but am in awe of the experts on here who do!

 

[Franklin]

Is body mass a factor in this? In decades of trying, we rarely see black athletes excel in the pool. My understanding is that black athletes have a different specific gravity to white. Can SG evolve (change detrimentally) with age? This might account for extraordinary performances by youngsters. Similarly, there might be differences between female and male SG. Sorry guys but I don't have the physics and the biology but am in awe of the experts on here who do!

I think recently there certainly have been fast French and Surinam swimmers. I call nonsense on the racial differences as they have been shown to be bunk in most cases I know of.

Painting with broad strokes we have the "imported" black population and the native black population. If we look at them:

Imported:
The whole problem is probably cultural, it's simply not their favorite sport. Ball games and Athletics are swamped with them. Skating, Cycling, Hockey, etc. not so much. However, Shany Davis shows that there really is no reason they can't compete.

Native:
Swimming needs facilities and that remains an issue. Unless a governement decides to go all out and stamp a swimming culture out of the ground I doubt we will see an African swim superpower any day soon. I could be wrong (I actually hope that all sports mondialize further!)

Another big issue is the recurring domestic insecurities in a lot of Africa, which makes the focus on sports for a large part of the continent pretty haphazard. It's not a coincidence that stable Kenya is doing so well in sports.

 

[Mellow Velo]

The story certainly is escalating. Both girls under the spotlight.
This morning the BBC openly discussed Leonard's comments.
Mark Foster said it was good that the US had come out and said what everybody is thinking.
Aussies wade in here:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/l...-faster-than-men/story-fn9dheyx-1226438946789

Not surprisingly, it's all over the UK press, as it's right up their street.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Here's a new one.

Greipel's legs on the left and Foerstermann's legs on the right.

Sorry about the exposure of the schlong!

 

[slowspoke]

I think recently there certainly have been fast French and Surinam swimmers. I call nonsense on the racial differences as they have been shown to be bunk in most cases I know of.

Painting with broad strokes we have the "imported" black population and the native black population. If we look at them:

Imported:
The whole problem is probably cultural, it's simply not their favorite sport. Ball games and Athletics are swamped with them. Skating, Cycling, Hockey, etc. not so much. However, Shany Davis shows that there really is no reason they can't compete.

Native:
Swimming needs facilities and that remains an issue. Unless a governement decides to go all out and stamp a swimming culture out of the ground I doubt we will see an African swim superpower any day soon. I could be wrong (I actually hope that all sports mondialize further!)

Another big issue is the recurring domestic insecurities in a lot of Africa, which makes the focus on sports for a large part of the continent pretty haphazard. It's not a coincidence that stable Kenya is doing so well in sports.

Sorry, but this is rubbish. Mainly it's socio economic reasons in western countries. It's expensive to swim and poorly renumerated when compared to other sports.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...-african-american-olympic-team_n_1644288.html

While you have some validity to your argument, particularly re facilities, it misses the main point.