Official thread: Should descents be a factor in GC/ are Tour's descents too dangerous

[Archibald]

Both Andy Schleck and Alberto Contador are concerned about the descent of the Pra Martino in Wednesday's stage. After Andy Schleck's poor descent today lost him 1:06 on Contador we offer up this topic for discussion.

descending is part of racing, just like climbing, time trialling, sprinting, bike handling, etc. And isn't the Tour about the best 'all round' rider? The one who is good enough at each facet overall?

 

[pugdog]

Is descending a skill? or is it a talent.

I've often wondered at that level of competition if it is something that can be drastically improved or not. Basso, the Schlecks, Montcoutié and Leipheimer have such consistent difficulties, and are so penalized that I would be surprised if they haven't made every effort to improve.

 

[Archibald]

Is descending a skill? or is it a talent.

I've often wondered at that level of competition if it is something that can be drastically improved or not. Basso, the Schlecks, Montcoutié and Leipheimer have such consistent difficulties, and are so penalized that I would be surprised if they haven't made every effort to improve.

I'll freely admit that I'm rubbish at descending if it's windy and technical - not for lack of handling ability, but thanks to an occasion of busting myself up in an accident I just struggle with the a lack of confidence/courage. When going downhill I start to lose my composure at around 60kmh. There's no way I could do the 80kmh+ that these guys do - well, I probably could but it would take a serious amount of time to build that confidence.

 

[RownhamHill]

I'm fairly new to cycling - only been watching for a couple of years - but I noticed this quote from Andy Schleck explaining why he lost time.

"Someone in front of me slid out on the first corner and so I had to clip out of the pedal. There was a gap of 150 metres and I couldn't close it to the bottom."

Maybe someone should suggest to him that he needs to be smarter and ride at the front more?

 

[gilbertador]

To be honest i actually agree with andy shleck to some extent, if the descent is really fast technical and open like yesterday then that is absolutely fine, however today it appears to be even quicker and tree lined, im sure if this descent was in the open it would be fine but the problem is people in lycra hitting trees and rocks at 50mph, add to the fact the coverage will be bad as helicopters wont see a lot and it is a shame because no matter how good the racing is we wont see a lot of it.

Yesterday was fine and so was col de madaleine last year, not sure about today though and lets not start about the crostis!

 

[YoRUsh]

Havent read the whole thread, but Im gonna put my 2 cents in anyway, so sorry if my points have been raised before.

Of course descents arent too dangerous. The thing is, they need to be carefull where in the race they are. You dont want a peloton on a hard descent trying to get the last people of a breakaway, because in big groups someone is bound to make a mistake, which makes the person behind him make a slightly bigger effort to correct and the person after that a little bigger correction, and so on until someone goes off and other people fall over them. Just like what we saw in the Vinocrash. (Im by the way not saying that that descnt was too dangerous, because of the placing within the stage, the peloton had to make their own choice not to go down fullspeed.)
If you have a descent like yesterday, there are two possible scenarios, or everything would have stayed together and they could take the descent pretty easy, or it could have hapenned like we aw yesterday, with small goups.

And for Andy Schleck blaming the person in front of him slipping: a pro should know in whose wheel he should be in a descent. And he wouldnt be ahead of Contador if he wasnt hold up earlier by someone in front of him crashing, but conscidering the fact that his hypocrisy knows no limits, we shouldt be surprised that that wasnt a problem and this is.

 

[Hawkwood]

The most thrilling Tour footage I ever saw was Indurain chasing down a lone escapee on a long descent, with Virenque and Pantani trying everything they could just to stay on his back wheel. Seeing Indurain sprinting out of the saddle coming ut of corners was awesome, as were the efforts the camera motorbike made in order to keep up. I think I heard later that Indurain's top speed had been 120 kms per hour.

 

[Sem Travões]

These are the days we are living now EVERYTHING is dangerous:
The Sun, driving, the neighbours, the food, the water, traveling, going out at night, we live in the fear era. I still remmber when I start driving as a kid without a liceince helping my father in his fruit distribution, the first car I had with 14 years old was an old battered Mini van, follow by an even older toyota corolla SSS with no 2 second gear, and keeping the subject my first road bike most of the time didn't had brakes at all for what I rode most flat roads.
I thhink the Schelcks would have been a real threat 20 years ago as cycling prós
Descendig is part of the sport as climbing is some are pretty at it, others suck, anyway most of the falls happen in flat roads. The problem is that there's no doping for descending maybe some wine would help the bros, I've done it with good results

 

[MartinGT]

No

BUT

Leopard and the cycling world have lost someone this season and I think that will be at the back of peoples minds.

 

[just some guy]

No

BUT

Leopard and the cycling world have lost someone this season and I think that will be at the back of peoples minds.

Strange thing about that no one from Quickstep has said anything or Farrar and they all knew WW better than most of the Lepo-muppets

 

[MartinGT]

Strange thing about that no one from Quickstep has said anything or Farrar and they all knew WW better than most of the Lepo-muppets

Very true.

I maybe finding excuses really.

The descents are as dangerous as you make them. If he had been at the front he wouldnt have a gap to close would he? AS I am talking about.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Descents are always dangerous, the matter is: When are they too dangerous? You can race them as you like. There is no need to take risks, but when you don't, you're not able to win the Tour.

And yes, they should be a factor. Descending is a part of cycling, just like climbing, TTing and sprinting. If you're not capable of pulling off a good/mediocre descent, you're not worth to be a winner.

 

[LeakyBoat]

The thing that strikes me is that AS put himself in this position. He knows the course, he knows his own ability. His half-hearted attempts to get time over the others meant he was vulnerable yesterday. He needs to go for broke today otherwise his tour will be over after this stage.

 

[El Pistolero]

If Andy has a brain, and I don't think he has, he'll attack hard to crack Evans and get some cushion for when the descend will start.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

7-235

I guess that's clear.
I have ridden a bike down horrible descends myself but you make it dangerous yourself. If you play it safe you won't crash. A better descender will gain time, that's life, like a better climber takes time on a climb.

Nothing to complain about

 

[thehog]

Agreed. Andy was in a bad position for the decent. Contador had 20s at the small summit. Andy was at the back of his group as they crossed the top - he should have been on Tommy V's wheel who was the best decender of the chase group.

Havent read the whole thread, but Im gonna put my 2 cents in anyway, so sorry if my points have been raised before.

Of course descents arent too dangerous. The thing is, they need to be carefull where in the race they are. You dont want a peloton on a hard descent trying to get the last people of a breakaway, because in big groups someone is bound to make a mistake, which makes the person behind him make a slightly bigger effort to correct and the person after that a little bigger correction, and so on until someone goes off and other people fall over them. Just like what we saw in the Vinocrash. (Im by the way not saying that that descnt was too dangerous, because of the placing within the stage, the peloton had to make their own choice not to go down fullspeed.)
If you have a descent like yesterday, there are two possible scenarios, or everything would have stayed together and they could take the descent pretty easy, or it could have hapenned like we aw yesterday, with small goups.

And for Andy Schleck blaming the person in front of him slipping: a pro should know in whose wheel he should be in a descent. And he wouldnt be ahead of Contador if he wasnt hold up earlier by someone in front of him crashing, but conscidering the fact that his hypocrisy knows no limits, we shouldt be surprised that that wasnt a problem and this is.

 

[LaFlorecita]

If Andy has a brain, and I don't think he has, he'll attack hard to crack Evans and get some cushion for when the descend will start.

With Alberto on his(her) wheel of course.

 

[hrotha]

With Alberto on his(her) wheel of course.

Most likely, but see, that's the problem with Andy. Apparently he thinks he has to drop all his rivals at once, instead of taking what time he can on whoever he can each day. We're talking about a guy who stopped an attack because Voeckler (and no one else) was on his wheel.

 

[El Pistolero]

Most likely, but see, that's the problem with Andy. Apparently he thinks he has to drop all his rivals at once, instead of taking what time he can on whoever he can each day. We're talking about a guy who stopped an attack because Voeckler (and no one else) was on his wheel.

When was that?

 

[Archibald]

Most likely, but see, that's the problem with Andy. Apparently he thinks he has to drop all his rivals at once, instead of taking what time he can on whoever he can each day. We're talking about a guy who stopped an attack because Voeckler (and no one else) was on his wheel.

and one who fartarsed about on PB the other day only to take off in the last few hundred metres for a 2 second gap. why didn't he do that earlier, far earlier?

 

[hrotha]

When was that?

Plateau de Beille. Granted, the others were close, they just hadn't had time to react because Andy stopped his attack almost before he launched it, but for a second or two he was alone with Voeckler, and he didn't try to push it.

 

[fatandfast]

this is the best tour route I can remember. Also some awesome riding by everybody but the Schlecks

 

[FabulousCandelabra]

Yes these descents are too dangerous... Pushing these guys that we love to their limits, and then seeing which of them will push themselves too far for fame and glory, only to end in brutal tragedy, I'd rather take away some of the excitement from watching the sport then see another shrouded body on my screen.

 

[Orvieto]

Yes descents should be a factor
climbs should be a factor
winds should be a factor
rain should be a factor
heat should be a factor
time trials should be a factor
cobbles should be a factor
flats should be a factor
technical finishes should be a factor
If it's part of the challenge of racing on your roads, it should be in the Tour de France. Each year will contain a different mix of these elements. Some the organizers can control. Some they can't. Of course all of these elements can be dangerous when taken to extremes and that's the fine line that the organizers walk. Nothing about the parcours so far this year has been too dangerous.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

Most likely, but see, that's the problem with Andy. Apparently he thinks he has to drop all his rivals at once, instead of taking what time he can on whoever he can each day. We're talking about a guy who stopped an attack because Voeckler (and no one else) was on his wheel.

I see what you're saying, but I think they were close and he, knowing he wouldn't gain time, decided not to waste the energy. If he wants to win, he'll have to learn to ignore who is on his wheel and just go. I think he's strong enough that some of them will eventually fall off the back.

And to answer the original question, Of course descents should be allowed. I do think when planning the stages, they should consider the possible selection of riders at the summit, typical weather conditions, etc so as to not make them unnecessarily dangerous, but if it happens to rain or things don't quite go as planned then it's just bad luck for the riders it doesn't favor. These descents by nature are dangerous. Yesterday, Andy would not have lost that much time if it weren't raining...sucks for him. No reason to exclude descent finishes in the future. It's not unheard of though. I remember a certain forum favorite complaining about a Giro descent that obviously favored his biggest rival...