Official thread: Should descents be a factor in GC/ are Tour's descents too dangerous

[buster1]

The TDF is there to test every little skill of cycling which most definately includes being able to at the worst limit your losses on the down hill. I loved watching the Gap stage and found it one of the best stages of this years tdf. The way that Evans attacked on the downhill showed his form and i also admired alberto, who limited his losses despite not being the best descender in the field.

The one reason i dislike Andy (and Frank) as a cyclist was displayed in this stage, in that he is a one trick pony if its not steep uphill all the way to the finish he is an average rider at best. Just imagine had he not had the Leotard team (& Saxobank) behind him in the past few years.

This year alone Fabian towed him to an advantage in the ttt (which he contributed 0, if anything he held the team up), lost small amounts of time on the short sharp climbs and now the downhill and the impending ITT. If one of the Schlecks win this it will be one of the most undeserving winners ever.

 

[gregod]

i cannot say with any confidence that the descents are any more dangerous than in the past, but there sure seems to be a lot more crashes and many more cars and motorcycles going up and down the mountains with the riders than in the past. as i understand it, this year many of the routes don't have viable alternate routes for the cars so they have to follow the riders on many narrow roads where they wouldn't have in the past.

as a rider, knowing that around me on a tricky descent a car may be coming sure would make me more skittish and therefore cause me to be more accident prone, i think. take for example hoogerland's descent before he was crashed. he was already going down pretty gingerly when he had a slip. after that he lost even more time that he had to make up on the flat and he looked pretty ungainly.

that said, i agree with many of the posters here: the shreks need to "nut up and shut up" and HTFU.

 

[Marva32]

No, they are not too dangerous. The riders seem to be taking things too fast for their equipment. The carbon rims they are using don't offer the same control that aluminum rims will offer as far as braking is concerned.

 

[thehog]

No, they are not too dangerous. The riders seem to be taking things too fast for their equipment. The carbon rims they are using don't offer the same control that aluminum rims will offer as far as braking is concerned.

charlie wegelius and armstrong had this exact discussion on Twitter. I agree. I hate carbon rims & deep rims just scare me.

http://captaintbag.tumblr.com/post/7821246218/stage-17-schlecks-to-use-carbon-fiber-training-wheels

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I watched the video, it looks fun. I hope they've cleaned the mud & crapola off the surface, 'cause that is a joke, but nothing about that descent would bother me. The race should be completely broken up at that point, you'll be in groups of 2, 3 or solo.

Zomegnan probably drove out that morning to dirty it up in the name of a harder race.



While I was disappointed with the reroute of the Crostis during the Giro, I could respect it given the circumstance. Here, a complaint is out of place.

The danger for the peloton lies where they do not expect it. We unfortunatly know this to be true, again from early in the Giro, and examples like Hoogerland, or the severe crashouts this Tour. Whats next? No cobbles?

Also, Riis didn't need Andy to announce his fear to know where to take advantage. Not only were most forumers aware of his abilities relative to others, he was a primary witness to Andy's descending.

Finally, while not related to descending, Andy was popped before the descent... bike handling is not all to blame for the time loss

 

[gregod]

charlie wegelius and armstrong had this exact discussion on Twitter. I agree. I hate carbon rims & deep rims just scare me.

carbon fiber as a braking surface has a very narrow temperature range for it to be effective. if it is too hot or too cold, it just doesn't work. i have a car with the option of carbon fiber brake discs and the owner's manual has very detailed instructions on how they should be used, including temperature and road conditions.

with all of the mild days that this year's tour has had maybe that is contributing to the crashes.

 

[Granville57]

what gets me is they only ever complain about these stages the day before, they know the route for months, why does it take this long for them to say something.

Precisely!

Now Candy decides he needs to protest the parcours? Give me a break.

The quote below was one of the most infuriating:

"I'm really disappointed. Is this what people really want to see?" he asked.

As it turns out, Candy, yes! That is exactly what we want to see!

Years ago, the very first image I ever saw on TV of the TdF was the peloton snaking its way down an alpine descent. It was beautiful and awe-inspiring. An indelible image, for sure. There's also a reason for my avatar: the sight of that sign is one of the most exhilarating in the world to me. It means that all the climbing I just did is about to payoff in a big way! I live for a great descent.

FrAndy need to understand that the whole point of the TdF is actually NOT just to allow them to waltz into Paris wearing yellow. It goes to the rider who actually earns it.

Not to mention...

It's a bike race, not simply some kind of oxygen processing freak show.

+1

 

[buster1]

I think the Schlecks need consider the common Physics saying "what goes up must come down". If they dont want these tough descents which are part of cycling then maybe we should get rid of the climbs and make it one big sprinters fest. Then sure as hell the schlecks wont be winning the tour.

 

[Barracuda]

Its called GENERAL CLASIFICATION for a reason peanuts !!

I havnt recently seen a brown Jersey with the title : Decenders Jersey !!

bring on the climbs and therefore, naturally, the descents !!!

 

[Barracuda]

Further to the above and the poll results, it is clear that 5 people are Schleck fans !!!

 

[BYOP88]

Further to the above and the poll results, it is clear that 5 people are Schleck fans !!!

Or maybe the Schleck family are members of this forum

 

[Anonymous]

carbon fiber as a braking surface has a very narrow temperature range for it to be effective. if it is too hot or too cold, it just doesn't work. i have a car with the option of carbon fiber brake discs and the owner's manual has very detailed instructions on how they should be used, including temperature and road conditions.

with all of the mild days that this year's tour has had maybe that is contributing to the crashes.

Your disc brakes cost more than my car.

 

[Anonymous]

I understand that Andy might be frightened on descents. Fears are normal things, and each person has them in relation to something whether they admit it or not. My problem is (and has been since his whining about the Roubaix stage last year) his sense of entitlement. "I am scared of climbs, so they shouldn't be part of the Tour because I want to win it, and I might have a harder time doing so because of my fear." Andy, welcome to life buddy. If you're so scared of some of the stages of the Tour every year, find another race. Period.

 

[Granville57]

Finally the forum seems to agree on something!

It must be a trick.

Actually, it is a trick question of sorts. The thread TITLE is poorly worded because it asks two different questions, the answers to which, for most people so far, would be YES to the first question and NO to the second. Hence some of the confusion:

Of course it should count (I selected Yes because I'm stupid and misread the poll question). No you're not. The title is.

Accidentally voted yes :/ But by all means, no they are not too dangerous

I'll add any other admitted errors that occur before the poll closes. Any mod intervention possible to assist in this rarest-of-occassions of forum solidarity?
Can votes be "corrected"?

 

[Mr. O'Clock]

Cyclists need proper geometry for the descents, also proper position on the bicycle, and get rid of the carbon wheels. I think that will really help in the cyclists safety.

 

[oncehadhair]

Maybe they could all dismount at the top of the hill and walk down.
Or maybe they could remember that it is a race.

 

[Dundee]

Decending is part of the skill set of a professional rider, some are good at, some are not.

 

[For The World]

I must echo the sentiments of others regarding the bikes/wheels the riders are using these days. The roads themselves have been the same for decades, and if they've been changed, it's mainly for resurfacing (and thus improvement) and safety measures (white lines, guard rails etc).

The wheels (and to a lesser extent the frames) area being made in such a fashion that they're brilliant in a straight line, but what about all those pesky corners that riders have to take? I can imagine that on a descent like that from Mont Ventoux, where there is a great deal of wind, these carbon rims with a depth of more than 30mm would certainly be quite good at getting pushed around by any sort of cross wind, thus making the handling of the bike far more sketchy.

In addition to this, it appears to me that riders are taking either a more reckless approach to riding in general, or are lacking skills (as evidenced by Frank & Andy). I've stated in previous threads that pro riders these days can't even hold a straight line a lot of the time, and are half wheeling a lot - which means if someone changes their line on a descent, and you're rather close, they could take you out.

I thought these sorts of things were taught to riders when they were juniors?

 

[The Falcon]

once again the Schleckette thinks he is bigger than the sport. What a chump!

I've got a photo up at home of tour riders climbing the Tourmalet in the '30s....can you imagine Andy whingeing if he was around in those days......oh, this wool jersey is too itchy, ive run out of brandy, i have to carry my own spare tyre, , the cork is stuck in my bidon and i cant get it out, this road is dirt with big rocks in it etc.

Descents have always been one of the many elements in our beautiful sport and long may they remain so!

 

[For The World]

once again the Schleckette thinks he is bigger than the sport. What a chump!

I've got a photo up at home of tour riders climbing the Tourmalet in the '30s....can you imagine Andy whingeing if he was around in those days......oh, this wool jersey is too itchy, ive run out of brandy, i have to carry my own spare tyre, , the cork is stuck in my bidon and i cant get it out, this road is dirt with big rocks in it etc.

Descents have always been one of the many elements in our beautiful sport and long may they remain so!

The wool wouldn't be itchy if it were sportswool. That stuff is fantastic.

 

[Dedelou]

I understand the emotive case in the light of the Wouter Weylandt tragedy, but we must be realistic here. Descents are a part of cycling. Pretty much always have been. In the light of a death, a particularly risky descent (though the worst parts were on the false flat anyway) was removed from the Giro, to mixed reaction. Given the events of the race it was probably the right decision. But we can't stay trapped in fear forever. Tom Simpson died on a climb, did we stop mountaintop finishes?

If we can't go downhill, we simply cannot have multiple climb stages. If we can't descend, then some riders are robbed of their biggest asset, and non-climbers are robbed of their biggest weapon in the battle against the time cut.

Wouter did not crash because the descending was dangerous , sadly he crashed , like so many because he wasn't paying attention at what he was doing and looking back in the middle of a turn. Today once again we saw Duque crash for the same reason.. looking back.. there is entirely too much looking back among the riders , suddenly

 

[Maxiton]

In his current state of mind, Andy Schleck should withdraw. His mind (in contrast to his stomach) is full of fear, and as such he is a danger to himself and others. He'd be well advised to go home and do whatever he must to address his issues, if he wants to continue as a rider.

Big, scary descents have always been a big part of racing and I can't see any reason to curtail that. I agree that bike geometry needs to be looked at again, however, and carbon rims outlawed.

 

[Descender]

Hell NO.

Descents are a fundamental part of cycling. There are very few truly dangerous descents. There are only unskilled descenders.

 

[ElChingon]

Wow, when did France start to narrowing their roads and then add even more turns to make any road either going up or down more difficult? Did France win the Earth Lotto and thought it would be cool to f-up all the roads? As many have stated its the same roads they've raced for decades! I keep seeing fresh blacktop so its pretty smooth at times! Fresh tar, much better traction as long as you don't ride the painted lines, it wasn't even hot which caused Beloki's incident. OK it was wet-ish but at some point the riders need to demand aluminum rims or aluminum braking surface rims on their wheels to not have to deal with the crappy carbon braking surface issues under bad conditions. Wheel sponsor doesn't have any? Well then time to seek another wheel sponsor. I mean they're all about safety right? They won't ride supposedly cool wheels that don't brake well on wet days since they're all concerned about safety, right? Yes, the whole safety thing is total BS as we have seen, as a race radios will not slow you down while using carbon rims on a wet day on a 10% descent, will they.

Ulrich lost the '98 tour in a wet descent (minus the whining), and the Schlecks will never win the 2011 tour with wet descents. They ride as if they're in Yellow and they have yet to even put it on. Their Ego's are wearing Yellow which they have not earned.

 

[benpounder]

It boggles my mind that Andy complaining about the decent from the Cote de la Rochetta garners derision and yet Contador's complaining about Monte Crostis saw a stage negated with very little negative comment.

I’m not particularly fond of the brothers Schleck, but I just don’t understand this forum’s infatuation with hating them.