Official Valverde thread.

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Re: Re:

Red Rick said:
Angliru said:
hrotha said:
At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.
He has always been either among the best or just below. To say "never among the best" is pretty much just lying. How does a rider get multiple grand tour podiums, including a Tour podium, being mediocre versus the clock, be never among the best in the high mountains? Never is quite broad a brush, maybe not often or seldom would be more accurate from your perspective? How could a rider with such limitations as you mention still reach the podium of the Giro in the latter stage of his career?
It depends on your definition of 'best'. Valverde has never dominated GTs in the mountains, nor has he ever had really outstanding climbing displays in the high mountains in the GTs over the years.

He's been close in GTs when there was no outstanding climbers, and when there was, Valverde got dropped in the high mountains when those riders brought down the hammer.

But the hypothesis that Valverde at some point should be getting dropped by hypothetical clean riders is true, but it shouldn't apply to a 38 year old by any stretch of the imagination.

The real issue would be that Valverde probably doped a lot harder early in his career than the current younger riders, and there's no way of knowing what the residual effect of that is.
Not sure that is the real issue. If the early-career high level of doping gives a significant long term peformance advantage, then you would have seen loads more riders of Valverde's generation and age still tearing up the peloton in the past few years. But he's basically the only one.
 
Re:

hrotha said:
At some point, the gazillion-year-old doper who was never among the best in the high mountains in the first place should start getting dropped by hypothetical clean contenders.
Not sure if the rider who won on Envalira, La Pandera, Morredero, Lagunas de Neila, Courchevel, Peyragudes, Arrate, Collada de la Gallina, Cumbres Verdes, La Molina, Jebel Hafeet was never among the best in the high mountains :rolleyes:
 
Lol at the long string of Vuelta unipuertos as if they said anything about anyone's potential in the high mountains.

Anyway, no, Valverde was never among the best, unless you're using "the best" to mean "GC contenders". In which case, fair enough, but don't get up in arms when someone is clearly using different criteria. Remember, the context was Valverde getting dropped by other riders in the mountains. The best Valverde was still dropped by other riders in the mountains. Regularly.

And anyway number 2, the point stands. Maybe focus on that?
 
Re:

hrotha said:
Lol at the long string of Vuelta unipuertos as if they said anything about anyone's potential in the high mountains.

Anyway, no, Valverde was never among the best, unless you're using "the best" to mean "GC contenders". In which case, fair enough, but don't get up in arms when someone is clearly using different criteria. Remember, the context was Valverde getting dropped by other riders in the mountains. The best Valverde was still dropped by other riders in the mountains. Regularly.

And anyway number 2, the point stands. Maybe focus on that?
So name another rider who like Valverde was never among the best in mountains :rolleyes: yet won as half as he on that same mountains?

The truth is, he was always among the best in the mountains, otherwise he would not be able to reach 8 GT podiums! Never the best (ok maybe once or twice - Vuelta 2009, 2006), but always among the very best.
 
samhocking said:
As far as I understand. Valverde was banned, Contador was banned. The point is Froome & Wiggins were not banned yet still thrown under a bus by British media, but not Spanish media. Valverde & Contador the opposite and celebrated at the end of their careers regardless of doping. That is a cultural difference.
It's like when my cycling buddy goes off to his training camps in Spain. The spanish simply don't see doping as wrong much of the time. The ex pros and locals he trains with, simply see doping as acceptable and part of what cycling is and being a good rider is about, whereas I would argue France & Britain see it more like what cycling shouldn't be, especially the media and fans.
The poster knows the above is not true. That brit oficialy caught dopers do not get attacked by the media and on the contrary get defended and their crimes ignored.

But posts it anyway just to get responses.

Sigh.
 
You know it's true. Spanish & Italian media wwere generally not that bothered about Froome or Wiggins, UK & French media were all over it every day like a rash. Lets not forget who broke Wiggins & Froome's stories. It was over every tabloid for heavens sake in both Countries, both times a joint effort to expose too!
There is a doping culture difference between France & UK and Spain & Italy when it comes to doping attitudes. I'm hardly the first to say it, it's been said by pretty much every serious cycling commentator for years now!
 
The Hitch said:
samhocking said:
As far as I understand. Valverde was banned, Contador was banned. The point is Froome & Wiggins were not banned yet still thrown under a bus by British media, but not Spanish media. Valverde & Contador the opposite and celebrated at the end of their careers regardless of doping. That is a cultural difference.
It's like when my cycling buddy goes off to his training camps in Spain. The spanish simply don't see doping as wrong much of the time. The ex pros and locals he trains with, simply see doping as acceptable and part of what cycling is and being a good rider is about, whereas I would argue France & Britain see it more like what cycling shouldn't be, especially the media and fans.
The poster knows the above is not true. That brit oficialy caught dopers do not get attacked by the media and on the contrary get defended and their crimes ignored.

But posts it anyway just to get responses.

Sigh.
Crimes ignored??

What nonsense.....as an example, did you read many of the UK tabloids reporting on Yates Vuelta win. I guess not, because they devoted more words to reminding everyone about the ban he'd served for the Asthma meds issue, than they did actually talking about the GT win.

Same with Thomas and the TDF, because they had nothing doping related to attribute to Thomas personally, nearly every article supposedly reporting on his win had lengthy reference to his connections with Froome/Wiggins/Sky and all the doping associated insinuations.

You might think that's all justified, maybe it is, but to state as fact that Brits (media) ignore dopoing crimes is laughable.
 
Re:

samhocking said:
You know it's true. Spanish & Italian media wwere generally not that bothered about Froome or Wiggins, UK & French media were all over it every day like a rash. Lets not forget who broke Wiggins & Froome's stories. It was over every tabloid for heavens sake in both Countries, both times a joint effort to expose too!
There is a doping culture difference between France & UK and Spain & Italy when it comes to doping attitudes. I'm hardly the first to say it, it's been said by pretty much every serious cycling commentator for years now!
That would explain the last iconic Italian rider being arrested by the police and publicly manhandled into custody all while on display to the public by the media. That certainly is an example of a country whose culture is one of looking the other way in terms of doping. :rolleyes:
 
I would imagine that was Pantani, even if the details aren't entirely accurate. But the treatment he got was massively unpopular and most of the Italian public emphatically stood by him and practically worshipped him, so I don't think that would be a good example.
 
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
 
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
 
gillan1969 said:
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
I'll agree with that...BUT as this is a cycling forum it has to be pointed out that there's a definite disconnect between sport in general (eg. Athletics) and cycling when it comes to the media.

Sections of the UK media, playing to their readership and a growing anti cycling sentiment in the UK, are all too ready to hang out to dry any cyclists with even a hint of doping controversy, whilst mostly turning a blind eye to most other sports.
 
brownbobby said:
gillan1969 said:
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
I'll agree with that...BUT as this is a cycling forum it has to be pointed out that there's a definite disconnect between sport in general (eg. Athletics) and cycling when it comes to the media.

Sections of the UK media, playing to their readership and a growing anti cycling sentiment in the UK, are all too ready to hang out to dry any cyclists with even a hint of doping controversy, whilst mostly turning a blind eye to most other sports.
its apples and pears....the public on mainland europe has had pro cycling for over a century...we've had it for 6 years....

combined with our hatred of cyclists on the road makes for a different backdrop for any press coverage...

we don't have an anti-doping culture or a doping culture when it comes to cycling...we haven't yet formed that culture...the market is not mature enough......
 
gillan1969 said:
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
who's we?
 
"Operación Puerto is something I shouldn't be asked about," he said bluntly.
"That's water under the bridge, and I don't even want to talk about it. I believe I've sufficiently demonstrated who I am since then.

"Who asks me about Operación Puerto is clueless.




thank my left nut he isn't Anglo Saxon saying stuff like that
 
That is Spanish Cycling Culture, it's exactly what I am talking about. Doping is not seen as wrong and it is not seen as something you need to explain. It's no different than speeding ticket. You take yor chance, you get caught, you pay the fine end of story.
 
I'm pretty sure I remember wiggins making a lot of very similar comments after 2007.

Not even about himself but when asked about others like contador, Armstrong, basso, vino, bunch of others he would defend them with the same points valverde makes there.


But according to what I'm reading above, only spanish people behave that way. :cool:
 
rick james said:
gillan1969 said:
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
who's we?
we, as in the british....all feted and yet all dodgy as.....
 
The Hitch said:
I'm pretty sure I remember wiggins making a lot of very similar comments after 2007.

Not even about himself but when asked about others like contador, Armstrong, basso, vino, bunch of others he would defend them with the same points valverde makes there.


But according to what I'm reading above, only spanish people behave that way. :cool:
I'm not saying what Valverde has said is wrong. With the support he received from Spanish Cycling Federation, Spanish Legal System & Spanish Minister for Sports when defending himself against UCI, CONI & WADA his hands are tied. To admit he did anything wrong involves many significant people who defended him at the time. Life would get very messy for him, so omerta is really his only way through it anyway, which is why I think he said many are clueless about Puerto or asking him about Puerto.
As for Wiggins, i'm not sure how that relates to Cultural differences. Anyone who's raced in Spain, gone on training camps with ex Spanish pros etc will understand where I'm coming from, the culture is completely different when discussing doping rider to rider and the ethical reasoning used to justify it.
 
gillan1969 said:
rick james said:
gillan1969 said:
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
who's we?
we, as in the british....all feted and yet all dodgy as.....
didn't realise you spoke for all the UK
 
rick james said:
gillan1969 said:
rick james said:
gillan1969 said:
samhocking said:
Lets just put it this way.

Spain - The Spanish Minister of Sport & Spanish Federation fully backed Valverde's claim of innocence despite his DNA matching blood in a bag with EPO in it.

UK - UKAD Investigate BC & Sky over an unknown jiffy bag without any evidence and conclude cheating, still without any direct evidence and even Parliamentary Select Committee spend hundreds of hours trying to prove illegal doping without evidence.

That is a different anti-doping culture.
hahaha Coe and Radcliffe

and...er...Farah

we hate these guys ;)
who's we?
we, as in the british....all feted and yet all dodgy as.....
didn't realise you spoke for all the UK
I'm not 'speaking' for anyone I'm illustrating what I see with my own eyes in the media and on TV outlets...if you see something different please help me by explaining....
 

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