Oscar Pistorius

[noddy69]

Your basic assumption seems to be that Pistorius is a top level athlete who would be competing in the olympics if he had his natural legs. What if he isn't good enough to be an olympic athlete but only makes it because of his artificial legs? There's no way to know what his "natural level is", maybe he should be making semi's on national level, maybe not even that.

How can you conclude that any advantage is nullified if you don't know his "natural level"? The science seems to say he has an advantage and I haven't seen anything that contradicts it. The fact that he's not winning doesn't mean there's no advantage.

All this shouldn't matter anyway, because of the simple fact he shouldn't be in the same event regardless of any (dis)advantage. It's a complete different way of movement. It's like someone doing the butterfly in a backstroke competition it's not the same event.

The science shows that he has certain advantages yes when focusing on those advantages. How this equates to overall performance however and the negatives are not worth mentioning it seems when looking at the performance.

 

[noddy69]

Indeed the disadvantage I have is that I suck at F1-driving. The disadvantage Pistorius has, is that he ..... well you understand the analogy.

Regards
GJ

Right so, he has all these advantages, no disadvantages whatsoever and is running much faster than he could if he had real legs,its just cause he sucks that he is slow. Good one, say that took loads of thought.

 

[GJB123]

At least the advantages can be scientifically proven. You say the apparent advantages are negated by the disadvantages. And you prove that how? By stating that he is till beaten by able bodied runners. Do you really not see that that in itself proves nothing?

Nobody says that there are no disadvantages, all that was said is that his lawyers failed to quantify those disadvantages and instead chose to concentrate on trying to cast doubt over the scientific proof provided. That is all that has been said.

Regards
GJ

 

[eric_vv]

The science shows that he has certain advantages yes when focusing on those advantages. How this equates to overall performance however and the negatives are not worth mentioning it seems when looking at the performance.

Like I said ultimately it doesn't matter if the negatives or advantages are greater. He doesn't use the same means (legs <> blade) for propulsion so shouldn't be in the same event in my opinion.

 

[noddy69]

Like I said ultimately it doesn't matter if the negatives or advantages are greater. He doesn't use the same means (legs <> blade) for propulsion so shouldn't be in the same event in my opinion.

I begin to lean towards not letting him run because of that . While I do like the idea of letting him into certain meetings maybe the olympics is not the one for it. I just dont agree with the argument for his so called superiority in overall performance argued by some because of metabolic gains. In the paper there are a number of disadvantages mentioned that people are glossing over which would impact on overall performance in a sprint race especially on the starting blocks, and also the testing of the actual fatigue was dubious amongst other things. The full picture has not been discussed by some and that in coming to a conclusion is unfair.

 

[eric_vv]

I begin to lean towards not letting him run because of that . While I do like the idea of letting him into certain meetings maybe the olympics is not the one for it. I just dont agree with the argument for his so called superiority in overall performance argued by some because of metabolic gains. In the paper there are a number of disadvantages mentioned that people are glossing over which would impact on overall performance in a sprint race especially on the starting blocks, and also the testing of the actual fatigue was dubious amongst other things. The full picture has not been discussed by some and that in coming to a conclusion is unfair.

I agree there's nothing wrong with letting him compete if the organisers choose to let him. For me this is the same as cyclist racing against horses or a moterbike against a car. It can be interesting and fun, but it's not a fair sport event.

I do have a problem with him being eligble to compete for titles in events where it's obvious (to me) that he doesn't belong.

 

[Cloxxki]

IMO he's a great man and athlete, but the main "disadvantage" keeping him from winning the Olympics, is simply not having been born a potential Olympic winner. Michael Johnson in the same situation... I see 42's and quicker as very possible.
BTW, Has Pistorius run at tracks with tighter bends? I'm slow, but even I dislike the tracks where the straights are 100m long rather than my clubs' barely 80m. On tighter bends I can see blades posing an additional challenge.

 

[Cerberus]

It seems some people in this thread believe Pistorius is only able to compete because of his blades and not because he's a talented athlete (what ever that means). If this was true then why is he the only 'bladerunner' outside paralympics?

I haven't been able to find much info t44 400m competitions(like world record progression) but it seems Pistorius is considerably faster than his opposition.

As I understand it there's really very few potential blade runners because:

1) you have to have lost you legs very young or you won't develop the right skills.

2) You have to have lost only lower legs, because artificial knees suck.

3) You have to have lost both legs because you can't coordinate an artificial and a normal leg well enough.

4) Your parents or your country have to be rich enough to get you quality artificial legs.

In summery there are very few candidates, so it's hardly surprising that there are few good runners among them.

This is from memory BTW, I think it's from Science of Sports.

 

[Rockets160]

Are we still arguing over this??? Holy smokes folks!
No advantage was to be had.

Check the results page.

He L-O-S-T.

 

[Cerberus]

Are we still arguing over this??? Holy smokes folks!
No advantage was to be had.

Check the results page.

He L-O-S-T.

On a related note EPO totally doesn't work. I tried some and i still couldn't outrace a 3 legged dog, this thing with Lance is such BS!

 

[orangerider]

He may have lost the race, but he won in terms of fame. All that coverage focused on him, at the expense of the other runners. What about them? Think they didn't have to work hard and suffer on their own? What about the guy who could've had his spot in the Olympics, think he didn't train for years and sacrifice? That's my beef with it. Pistorius cheated his way in, plain and simple. The fact he lost makes it even more of an insult. Heck, at least Lance won his races.

 

[MarkvW]

At least the advantages can be scientifically proven. You say the apparent advantages are negated by the disadvantages. And you prove that how? By stating that he is till beaten by able bodied runners. Do you really not see that that in itself proves nothing?

Nobody says that there are no disadvantages, all that was said is that his lawyers failed to quantify those disadvantages and instead chose to concentrate on trying to cast doubt over the scientific proof provided. That is all that has been said.

Regards
GJ

I say the heck with it. The Olympics should be open for the best. If the best have been enhanced, so be it.

Let the "natural" people have their own darn Olympics. Then maybe they'll know how it feels to be discriminated against. Only people who have never had any kind of surgery or medical treatment would be welcome.

Purely natural. The Natural Olympics. For Natural Only!

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The issue is whether a "Paralympian" should be allowed to compete with "Olympians".

Does he have an advantage? Of course. He's not using all of the muscles in the foot and lower leg, and doesn't suffer the physiological tax of using those muscles. He also is, obviously, using a mechanical device.

If the IOC wants to allow him to race, then they should abolish the Paralympics.

The Olympics (as an ideal) are there to showcase the pinnacle of human ability.

I'm sorry you don't have lower legs, but that's the way it goes.

 

[Spider1964]

The issue is whether a "Paralympian" should be allowed to compete with "Olympians".

Does he have an advantage? Of course. He's not using all of the muscles in the foot and lower leg, and doesn't suffer the physiological tax of using those muscles. He also is, obviously, using a mechanical device.

If the IOC wants to allow him to race, then they should abolish the Paralympics.

The Olympics (as an ideal) are there to showcase the pinnacle of human ability.

I'm sorry you don't have lower legs, but that's the way it goes.[/QUOTE]

+1 Shrimpy. No legs. No run. HBF. I have 8 legs and I'm as slow as all F***.

 

[taiwan]

He can win. A large reason to why there this issue is being thrown about is the lack of transparency in his camp in even allowing the ability to determine if he's at an advantage, and if there is/isn't, to what degree. He's submitted dodgy research/manipulated findings in his favour, as well as impeded and blocked the submission of research by anyone outside of his camp through legal means.

To get rid of the questions you have to figure out his advantages and disadvantages. Then you seek to equal these out as much as you can to normal human parameters, such as the swing time/turnover rate . Obviously some things will be highly individualized, as his unique situation warrants tailoring these things specifically for what he's up against and what he can bring to the competition.

To move away from the physical and pose this in a physiological manner, what if an athlete who wants to compete was born with a condition that only allows him to naturally achieve a 20% hematocrit. Do you allow this athlete to take EPO to make him competitive, and if yes, then how much is an acceptable hematocrit? Or if an athlete had Pistorius' condition and wanted to compete in the High Jump? How do you tune these - http://www.skyrunneraustralia.com.au/ , to make an acceptable Prosthetic without offering a competitive advantage?

Good analogy. Posted to agree, but then I just thought of TUEs.

I suppose what I think should happen is a) He picks either the Olympics or the Paralympics. b) If the Olympics the prosthetics are ultra-tightly regulated to ensure they don't offer an advantage, potentially setting a 'human' minimum weight, energy-return, shock absorbtion etc. Then they'd basically be doing the same thing they do for someone with athsma or whatever.

 

[Cancellator]

Just watched the relay. Why did he have to run last, instead of first how he was supposed to, initially?

Also, RSA were last before his turn came, right? He didn't really get to do anything in the end. I guess there would have been a lot more discussions if he helped his team get a medal.

 

[will10]

Just watched the relay. Why did he have to run last, instead of first how he was supposed to, initially?

Also, RSA were last before his turn came, right? He didn't really get to do anything in the end. I guess there would have been a lot more discussions if he helped his team get a medal.

I don't think he had to run any leg in particular in the end. As it was RSA were off the back by the final leg so there was no risk of any pack running in the end.

 

[Cancellator]

I don't think he had to run any leg in particular in the end. As it was RSA were off the back by the final leg so there was no risk of any pack running in the end.

Previously I heard that he had to run the first leg so there wouldn't be any risk of an accident. I'd say that made sense, but whatever.

 

[BroDeal]

I am glad he failed. All the media were hoping this cheater would win something so they could wax poetic about a heartwarming tale of overcoming disabilities. They would not have mentioned those who were cheated out of their shot at a medal or even simply denied the chance to race in the finals.

 

[will10]

Previously I heard that he had to run the first leg so there wouldn't be any risk of an accident. I'd say that made sense, but whatever.

Yep I understood that was the condition on which he was permitted to run the relay, but looks like they didn't enforce/lifted that before hte final

 

[Caruut]

If I had a small scooter that was capped at 10s for 100m, I could ride it and would not win the final of the Olympic games. That doesn't make it any less absurd that I'm riding a scooter.

 

[Finn84]

Yep I understood that was the condition on which he was permitted to run the relay, but looks like they didn't enforce/lifted that before hte final

It was on place for last year in Daegu WCs, but not anymore. He was supposed to run 3rd leg in semi-finals but never started since 2nd leg runner collided with Kenyan runner. South Africa was only allowed into final through the protest.

(To be honest, I think going to the final via protest should not be allowed if runner/team did not finish)

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The whole story is rather poetic, and likely inspiring to many handicapped people. But to judge on pathos alone isn't objective, nor really fair. There has to be a real scientific analysis as to what advantage his, and future amputee's legs may have, because at some point if we're not careful the paralympics will be the olympics. And that's not right.

Don't think his team should have been allowed in the final of the relay. US favorite Jim Ryun was purposefully tripped in the 1500m semis back in the 1972 Olympics by a scab runner, knocking him out of the race. Though the IOC agreed he was fouled on purpose, he was not re-instated, and the US appeals to the IOC denied.

 

[Cavalier]

There was one done according to the guys at science of sport - and it showed his artificial limbs were stupidly good. Not coincidentally, that research wasn't presented when they applied to have him be allowed to run.

 

[AntiGravityCycling]

Agreed re: Jim Ryun. I remember that, and there was nothing accidental about it.

I like Pistorius' determination. A lot. I just do not think it is a fair fight.

Oh, and the 4x400m relay. Putting RSA into the final did not deprive anybody of a spot. Three transferred from each semi, plus the two fastest also-rans. The track has NINE lanes. So they went from eight to nine finalists. So the "somebody got bumped to King Oscar could be in the show" argument is a dog.

I STILL think it wasn't right, just sayin.