Papp list

[Oldman]

...but on topic: Amateurs that might be on Papp's list that don't have any real results and no evidence of drug distribution will probably get forgotten. It takes time to follow up on this sort of evidence and if there's no serious crime other than stupidity there wouldn't be additional disclosure. Hell, if cyclist stupidity was an indictable offense....

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

You make a couple of good points and then blow it. I don't know where you race but up here the Masters pretty much finance and organize everything, many for their kids and other youngsters. That goes for track racing, cyclo cross, bmx, mbx and road events. Sounds like you race with small minds...

Great! That's what I was talking about. My nasty references were more of a poke at a specific poster for humour's sake, and not meant to be painted so broadly.

Back to the list...

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yeah I watched this one crusty masters dude dale stetina hammer it in a crit breakaway. very entertaining. I just loved seeing him ride his heart out. I doubt Dale does it for the prizes. LeMond to me has to really put his money where his mouth is as far as promoting the young ins. I met a custom frame builder who has worked with Greg before who is ready to go to work for Greg again! Hey Lance is sponsoring a u-23 team as of now, he got Colorado Stage race going again, he is promoting LIVESTRONG which is a health and fitness network as well as cancer org. Shimano is involved in jr. development I know kids they are sending out to race in Europe. Maybe some others can step aboard?

Livestrong sponsors the team, not Lance. If you really think one red cent comes out of Lance's little Fort Knox, then please check out this bridge which I have for sale right now.

You may be a little slow. Hint: the bridge is in Brooklyn NYC

Oh yeah, that "crusty masters dude's" son Peter passed on being on "Lance's team". Probably he just didn't need the money.

 

[fatandfast]

You make a couple of good points and then blow it. I don't know where you race but up here the Masters pretty much finance and organize everything, many for their kids and other youngsters. That goes for track racing, cyclo cross, bmx, mbx and road events. Sounds like you race with small minds...

I have raced in a couple of clubs both west and east coast. Clubs that have money usually get it from affiliation from a master's rider vs a Jr. I remember being at a meeting of a large,well funded club..they went to give out incentive cash to help people defer the cost of races that involved overnight travel and were targeted for the sponsor. We had to divide up the cash equally.Masters,women,1,2,3 and then came the Jr's. We only had 2 that were going to race.! kid had some skills and very little motivation..the other kid had motivation and a great outlook in spades..absolutely no talent they each got a huge check..while everybody else tried to figure out how to give the cash on a per rider basis when all of us had already agreed to a check per group. In my experience the Jr.s are the smallest,hardest to fill fields of any race. Friend had a race in Eastern PA.had prereg for @45 days and had 5 Jr's signed up..they were pressured to hold the event even if the prize money would go to riders just for showing up. If somebody lives where there are fields of 125 Jr's on a regular basis it's the exception not the rule. The LA model of giving young guns a place to go with a reason is probably a big part of the battle . HS racing would be a great leap in the right direction

 

[BotanyBay]

ugh

Normally, I am very cynical of riders... but do you think it might be possible that not that many masters riders dope? Even if all 25 riders are masters, do you think that is representative of the population?

Don't get me wrong, go after every dude on the list, but don't use it as an excuse each time you are not first to the line.

I don't think that a majority of masters riders dope, but I think every local region has their little doped "crew of guys" who you just wish would go spend time with sonny-boy or relax a bit. You can tell which ones would literally give anything to beat their arch-rivals. They spend their weeks plotting on how to do it. They attend club (sorry... "TEAM") rides and can't shut-up about their stupid ****ing contest with that guy who didn't pull enough during the last 15 times they were in the "break" together

I took a long period away from racing after my retirement. When I came back, I was a "masters" rider. It took me just one race with those assholes to go take my rightful place back as a downgraded Cat4. Not because I couldn't hang, but because I literally despised these guys (many of whom were members of the same club ...sorry "TEAM").

And the clubs (sorry, TEAMS) that are 100% masters riders? Forget it. What a bunch of narcissistic jackwagons they tend to be! You'd think if they were so damn good, they'd care enough to spend their local saturday ride trying to help mentor the newer juniors, etc. But no. Heck, even right now, there are guys in NJ who want nothing more than to beat Joe Saling next season. And they're hard at work.

 

[Oldman]

And the clubs (sorry, TEAMS) that are 100% masters riders? Forget it. What a bunch of narcissistic jackwagons they tend to be! You'd think if they were so damn good, they'd care enough to spend their local saturday ride trying to help mentor the newer juniors, etc. But no. Heck, even right now, there are guys in NJ who want nothing more than to beat Joe Saling next season. And they're hard at work.

You can fill in several East Coast names here. It's truly an odd experience to go to a National Champ race and see East Coast guys race against each other while the action goes up the road...But I've also seen that among SoCal and Norcal guys but not to the same extreme. Explainable by long term rivalries? We're all peace and love out here. Except for the jackwagons and then the peloton rides to restore some peace and love.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

And the clubs (sorry, TEAMS) that are 100% masters riders? Forget it. What a bunch of narcissistic jackwagons they tend to be! You'd think if they were so damn good, they'd care enough to spend their local saturday ride trying to help mentor the newer juniors, etc. But no. Heck, even right now, there are guys in NJ who want nothing more than to beat Joe Saling next season. And they're hard at work.

Yup, that's a great way to build the sport! Stupid old f*ckers trying to beat some other old has-been...

The stories posted about no jrs showing up to races should tell the rich old b*stards that they're in a dying sport in that country and really need to do something to fix it. Perhaps rather than trying to source hgh and make alliances to beat the local geriatric, they should be mentoring youngsters and putting some energy into development programs.

Oh wait, that goes against the almost religious American ideal of being 'famous'. Sorry, I forgot there's very little regard for helping people in that society...

Fifty year-olds on $10 000 bikes does not a sport make...

 

[Bertie]

Heck, I thought I was just having some fun riding, keeping fit and racing in Masters races. Now after reading this I realize that I am in fact the poison in this sport that is preventing fine young men from taking the sport up in droves....
hhmmm. If we are to believe USAC then license holders are increasing year on year. That sounds like a growing sport to me, not a dying one. If the growth is in older folk racing...who cares? More bikes bought, more gear bought, more jobs created, less healthcare costs, right? The potential juniors that do not ride, do not have lack of funding as their reason...they just dont want to ride/race, because other sports are more appealing. You dont make cycling more appealing for youngsters by stopping riding and racing in Masters.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Noone said to stop racing and riding in masters. The argument is that masters racers may be taking resources (win money, prizes, sponsor money and attention) from developing riders.

Keep it up, buddy! And maybe give a disadvantaged junior the gear you're done with. Once you're dead, who's going to buy licenses?

 

[Oldman]

Yup, that's a great way to build the sport! Stupid old f*ckers trying to beat some other old has-been...

The stories posted about no jrs showing up to races should tell the rich old b*stards that they're in a dying sport in that country and really need to do something to fix it. Perhaps rather than trying to source hgh and make alliances to beat the local geriatric, they should be mentoring youngsters and putting some energy into development programs.

Oh wait, that goes against the almost religious American ideal of being 'famous'. Sorry, I forgot there's very little regard for helping people in that society...Fifty year-olds on $10 000 bikes does not a sport make...

Your generalizations are pretty prejudiced. I would assume when you characterize America as "that society" you know everything about it and aren't considering yourself among that group. Nice to be that sure of yourself, isn't it?

 

[BotanyBay]

I should upload a few photos I have of junior fields back in 1984 and 85. It was not uncommon for us to get 85-100 riders. Back then, we actually had to QUALIFY to ride nationals.

 

[Deagol]

Noone said to stop racing and riding in masters. The argument is that masters racers may be taking resources (win money, prizes, sponsor money and attention) from developing riders.

Keep it up, buddy! And maybe give a disadvantaged junior the gear you're done with. Once you're dead, who's going to buy licenses?

It might be possibe that the video game hobby is biting into the number of Junior bike racers just a bit more than the fact that people over 35 have decided to race bikes...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Your generalizations are pretty prejudiced. I would assume when you characterize America as "that society" you know everything about it and aren't considering yourself among that group. Nice to be that sure of yourself, isn't it?

It's VERY nice to be this sure of myself. At least when it comes to the jr vs mstr racing paradigm.

I can't even come close to explicating how many rich masters I've seen at races who then b*tch that the sport should be bigger in America. Give your head a shake. WHO is going to do that? Perhaps fields of juniors fighting for wins? Certainly more than has-beens stroking their seat post...

I can guarantee you that it won't be via financially established old men (35+) buying bikes to beat on their buddies. That funds the MARKET of cycling, but not the sport.

The continuation of the sport we all love rests upon the ability to feed the machine with young talent. If we are not helping young kids to race, to understand racing, and to persue it rabidly, then the sport is dead.

I'm only saying this to make sure that those who are 'racing' in the masters' categories realize their obligation to the sport in general. Cycling is not solely there to make you feel good about yourself, although that's somehting you should get out of it. In the bigger picture, you should also be helping those who want to race.

I've noticed in America that it really does seem to be a 'rich-kid' sport. That's sort of silly. How much of the athlete pool are you ignoring? You've got a fair number of velodromes in the country, and a track bike costs nothing, there's a nudge in the right direction...

 

[BotanyBay]

peckers to measure...

My original point being, that we have absolutely no need for masters racing when he have a perfectly fine system of "fitness/results-based racing" (IE: Cats 5-1).

How about this guys: We'll be sure to post a separate list of results (based on age) so you can all measure each others' peckers after the race, ok?

But I do like the sentiments expressed in regards to the declining junior participation. Back in my day, I could count on the old timers to help mentor my entry into the sport. Now they're too busy starting their own racing clubs, having "bylaws", standing in a circle measuring their penises and diving more and more into their regular ultra-selfish baby boomer ways. No wonder the juniors would rather play Play station and get high. Dad's always too busy trying to get that sub-1:00 40K time trial.

 

[flicker]

I would like to share this with JDM. Back in the day when I was young older riders mentored younger riders. That means finding equipment they could use for a reasonable price, giving them rides to races, showing them tactics and training techniques, etc.
I see the same things happening now with the masters in my area. They fill the fields thus giving larger purses etc. to everyone. If you have 40 masters racing and 20 jrs. racing it looks a lot better than having 1 race with 20 jrs. racing. Add on top of that womens races, pro races/1-2 amatuer cat 345 you have more participation in the sport. Heck I do not even know why there are not the races called midgets anymore. I got me one of those 18 speed campi equipped 24" wheel Bianchis" for my son when he was 8.
As far as doping as a master, call me a doping master. Master of my own destiny! Never tested and never tested positive. Flicker starts a doping controversy. Faster than Merckx and LeMond because I am not racing them. Instant notoriety, my 15 minutes of fame,SUPERSTAR!, a thousand points of lite, kinder gentler nation, done so much for our sport, yellow bracelet wearer me! FLICKER

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Oh Flicker, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways...

I'm actually getting a good kick out of you recently. I'm also thinking that you may not be as crazy (or inane) as many think you to be.

The net is tightening...

 

[flicker]

Oh Flicker, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways...

I'm actually getting a good kick out of you recently. I'm also thinking that you may not be as crazy (or inane) as many think you to be.

The net is tightening...

I do respect what you and others say about doping. If the amatuer masters or cat 4 or jrs. dope the sport is lost.
So many bike racers are self absorbed I call them "special" lycra wearing twits.

The good old boys need to set example. By example I mean being positive people, sportsmen and role models for the youth.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

The good old boys need to set example. By example I mean being positive people, sportsmen and role models for the youth.

Exactly! From what I've seen in my limited experience of America, that's sorely lacking.

Think of how much good the 'pudgy army' could be doing, rather than trying to one-up the neighbour or dumping a few grand on a set of wheels.

To reiterate: Masters are old and slow, and not going anywhere. The truth hurts...

 

[Oldman]

You say this:

It's VERY nice to be this sure of myself. At least when it comes to the jr vs mstr racing paradigm.

I can't even come close to explicating how many rich masters I've seen at races who then b*tch that the sport should be bigger in America. Give your head a shake. WHO is going to do that? Perhaps fields of juniors fighting for wins? Certainly more than has-beens stroking their seat post...

I can guarantee you that it won't be via financially established old men (35+) buying bikes to beat on their buddies. That funds the MARKET of cycling, but not the sport.

The continuation of the sport we all love rests upon the ability to feed the machine with young talent. If we are not helping young kids to race, to understand racing, and to persue it rabidly, then the sport is dead.

I'm only saying this to make sure that those who are 'racing' in the masters' categories realize their obligation to the sport in general. Cycling is not solely there to make you feel good about yourself, although that's somehting you should get out of it. In the bigger picture, you should also be helping those who want to race.

I've noticed in America that it really does seem to be a 'rich-kid' sport. That's sort of silly. How much of the athlete pool are you ignoring? You've got a fair number of velodromes in the country, and a track bike costs nothing, there's a nudge in the right direction...

Then you say this:
Exactly! From what I've seen in my limited experience of America, that's sorely lacking.

Think of how much good the 'pudgy army' could be doing, rather than trying to one-up the neighbour or dumping a few grand on a set of wheels.

To reiterate: Masters are old and slow, and not going anywhere. The truth hurts...

Your generalization and admissions show you know your prejudices guide your responses; nothing more. I can reassure you that in our region the Masters support, organize and foster everything the juniors and early elite racer's do. So do the women, women's/Masters, etc. Sounds like you are taking your limited experience and labelling it as uniquely 'Murican. That Joe Papp sold to some masters racers doesn't mean all riders over 30 in America dope

 

[BotanyBay]

That Joe Papp sold to some masters racers doesn't mean all riders over 30 in America dope

He was far from the only guy moving the stuff. That was just his own little circle.

How many people do you know who'd just walk up to a group of guys and say "hey. got any HGH?". This group is just one group of guys who all found each other somehow. All underground. But I'll bet that more than one group was stumbling around in the dark, barely missing each other.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

You say this:




Then you say this:
Exactly! From what I've seen in my limited experience of America, that's sorely lacking.

Think of how much good the 'pudgy army' could be doing, rather than trying to one-up the neighbour or dumping a few grand on a set of wheels.

To reiterate: Masters are old and slow, and not going anywhere. The truth hurts...

Your generalization and admissions show you know your prejudices guide your responses; nothing more. I can reassure you that in our region the Masters support, organize and foster everything the juniors and early elite racer's do. So do the women, women's/Masters, etc. Sounds like you are taking your limited experience and labelling it as uniquely 'Murican. That Joe Papp sold to some masters racers doesn't mean all riders over 30 in America dope

Of course my prejudices guide my responses. And pretty much the rest of my life as well. As do yours. As do everyone's.

Once again, kudos to wherever your scene is happening! That's great!

I was jumping between PMs and previous posts, and commenting mostly on a scene in an area that is obviously a little more narcissitic than where you're at. Take it easy, buddy.

I'm not sure that you could qualify my experience as 'limited', but if you're speaking solely of masters' racing I'll agree. I wasn't trying to make all 30+ racers look bad, but more making a point of what I've seen in certain groups. Mind you, they're groups that have heaps of money. And they certainly don't spread that money around.

Same thing for doping. Lots of 30+ guys on PEDs, but for what? More money down the drain that could be going somewhere useful.

Glad to hear that you're surrounded with a healthy cycling culture, that's all I'm looking for...

 

[slowoldman]

Of course my prejudices guide my responses. And pretty much the rest of my life as well. As do yours. As do everyone's.

Once again, kudos to wherever your scene is happening! That's great!

I was jumping between PMs and previous posts, and commenting mostly on a scene in an area that is obviously a little more narcissitic than where you're at. Take it easy, buddy.

I'm not sure that you could qualify my experience as 'limited', but if you're speaking solely of masters' racing I'll agree. I wasn't trying to make all 30+ racers look bad, but more making a point of what I've seen in certain groups. Mind you, they're groups that have heaps of money. And they certainly don't spread that money around.

Same thing for doping. Lots of 30+ guys on PEDs, but for what? More money down the drain that could be going somewhere useful.

Glad to hear that you're surrounded with a healthy cycling culture, that's all I'm looking for...

So where are you at that the masters are so evil? And secondly why are you so concerned as to what they do with their money?