Paris-Nice 2024, March 3-10

[Logic-is-your-friend]

People shouldn't take Zoef-Lightning's posts too seriously.

 

[tobydawq]

People shouldn't take Zoef-Lightning's posts too seriously.

Is that guy back?

 

[proffate]

Of course. But he tried. He was one of the strongest that day, together with Skjuins. And better than his teammates Van Aert and the later winner Tratnik. So, what is your point ? In my eyes, Jorgenson is still the second or third (together with Van Aert) in Visma's quality ranking. And the second allround and in climbing in stageraces after Vingegaard.

I like where your head is at, but whoa nelly... WVA turned around and won the next day after a dominant 3 man break.

Kuss just won a grand tour bc of tactics which is better than PN bc of tactics.

Hard to make a direct comparison to a sprinter, but Kooij has to be somewhere up there in value for Visma.

And I'm sure Visma has 4 other tour winners waiting in the wings, just as soon as they find the right psychotherapist.

 

[Oldermanish]

If this PN has shown us one thing it's that the Jumbo Visma effect is real. Jorgenson is a talented rider but I didn't expect this from him (yet). Instant improvement. And in Roglic' case, the opposite seems true as well

The American that finished 3 rd certainly could have expected it. They've been racing against each other since their Junior days. Both have had great results....you just can't see them from where you live apparently.

 

[frisenfruitig]

The American that finished 3 rd certainly could have expected it. They've been racing against each other since their Junior days. Both have had great results....you just can't see them from where you live apparently.

Replying twice to the same comment? What are you saying, you don't see a significant improvement compared to last year?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Replying twice to the same comment? What are you saying, you don't see a significant improvement compared to last year?

I think it's too early to say that for sure. Last year he was 2nd in Romandie where he held it together on a climb at 2000m. Now he's a year older, hasn't had a major injury since, and is riding for the/one of the strongest teams around. I don't think he's doing anything that is completely ridiculous. He also didn't win PN by being the outright strongest on every GC stage, Roglič was subpar, and Remco is not always unbeatable in a stage race without an ITT, plus his tactics can sometimes be questionable. The weather also took its toll on the riders yesterday, and Jorgenson was quite familiar with the course.

Of course, if he goes on to dominate every single race he rides this season, then it'll be a different case.

 

[Taxus4a]

It's because Remco climbs like Ullrich and Indurain. Changes of pace are what kills him (even Contador to an extent had that issue, his best times were when he did his own pace up the climbs, even in the 2013 TDF he set the fastest times up the MTT, but blew up when he responded to Froome's pace changes)

One thing that Remco's climbing tactic does is prevent others from attacking. Even Vingegaard couldn't attack in last year's Vuelta in the first half when he wanted to due to Remco's pace (especially stage 8). The knucklehead Horner said Remco was wrong for dictating the pace on that climb... but if you set a pace that even Vingegaard cannot attack, you must be doing something right

Maybe, but the change of rythm he did at La Redoute was inpressive...I want to think that is the problem, becouse other way id not clever for him...but in that case he need more good helpers, not just Landa. And Landa in a good day IS a better climber than Remco and of course he will want in that case to be leader.

 

[roundabout]

I think it's too early to say that for sure. Last year he was 2nd in Romandie where he held it together on a climb at 2000m. Now he's a year older, hasn't had a major injury since, and is riding for the/one of the strongest teams around. I don't think he's doing anything that is completely ridiculous. He also didn't win PN by being the outright strongest on every GC stage, Roglič was subpar, and Remco is not always unbeatable in a stage race without an ITT, plus his tactics can sometimes be questionable. The weather also took its toll on the riders yesterday, and Jorgenson was quite familiar with the course.

Of course, if he goes on to dominate every single race he rides this season, then it'll be a different case.

A guy who was ~30 in the World rankings last year apparently has to dominate every single race he rides to show significant improvement?

 

[scribers]

To warrant beating world class gc stage racers, yes. That would be nice to see. At least some other 1 week race. Or top ten a GT would be great to see too.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

A guy who was ~30 in the World rankings last year apparently has to dominate every single race he rides to show significant improvement?

No, of course not, but I still think it's a bit premature to judge his progression after one stage race where most things seemed to click. Martinez also looked great in Algarve for instance, and now he might be back to his usual inconsistent self. My point wasn't that Jorgenson hadn't improved, just that his transformation wasn't yet as remarkable as some made it out to be. His WT ranking last year also suffered from the fact that he crashed in Dauphiné and had to leave the Tour early due to a thigh injury.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Is that guy back?

If it's not him, then it's someone who does an uncanny impersonation.

 

[frisenfruitig]

No, of course not, but I still think it's a bit premature to judge his progression after one stage race where most things seemed to click. Martinez also looked great in Algarve for instance, and now he might be back to his usual inconsistent self. My point wasn't that Jorgenson hadn't improved, just that his transformation wasn't yet as remarkable as some made it out to be. His WT ranking last year also suffered from the fact that he crashed in Dauphiné and had to leave the Tour early due to a thigh injury.

I don't think I said anything unreasonable by describing it as a significant improvement, which Olderman apparently disagreed with. I'm not saying he went from a donkey to a racehorse but being the strongest guy in a race like PN is a big difference compared to what he was doing last year.

 

[scribers]

Hot take: del toro would have won this race if he had happened to be there

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I don't think I said anything unreasonable by describing it as a significant improvement, which Olderman apparently disagreed with. I'm not saying he went from a donkey to a racehorse but being the strongest guy in a race like PN is a big difference compared to what he was doing last year.

I don't agree he was the strongest guy like you say, and I therefore don't see this as an significant improvement. If he had been in a break that got handed 50 seconds due to tactical circumstances in Romandie last year, he would also have won that race. I'm also not sure he would have won PN if stage 7 hadn't been altered, but we'll never know.

The way I see it, he proved last year that he both had talent across different terrain and that he was willing to work hard to reach the highest level possible, and I think those qualities matter more than him now riding for Visma.

 

[Gargamel35]

Maybe they just plan to fly under the radar until TdF. To make Roglič unimportant and not targeted that much.
And then he surprises them with a lights out attack that top 3 don't cover. Kuss style. Longshot, i know.

 

[frisenfruitig]

I don't agree he was the strongest guy like you say, and I therefore don't see this as an significant improvement. If he had been in a break that got handed 50 seconds due to tactical circumstances in Romandie last year, he would also have won that race. I'm also not sure he would have won PN if stage 7 hadn't been altered, but we'll never know.

The way I see it, he proved last year that he both had talent across different terrain and that he was willing to work hard to reach the highest level possible, and I think those qualities matter more than him now riding for Visma.

It's not like he got a minute and then was barely able to hold on. He wasn't dropped anywhere and was the only one able to follow Evenepoel. If he wasn't the strongest, then who was? Perhaps Evenepoel but it's not like he was clearly better.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It's not like he got a minute and then was barely able to hold on. He wasn't dropped anywhere and was the only one able to follow Evenepoel. If he wasn't the strongest, then who was? Perhaps Evenepoel but it's not like he was clearly better.

He was indeed very strong on the last stage especially, but I think the weather gave him an advantage over the more natural climbers. Also if Evenepoel had been let's say 10-15 seconds behind in GC beforehand, then the stage could possibly have played out differently.

I agree he looks stronger than last year, but I still think it's too early to talk about a significant improvement. In the Northern classics he now has the advantage of being part of a stacked team, so it can't be ruled out that he'll win of them, if he gets the opportunity to attack like he did in Omloop.

 

[Oldermanish]

A guy who was ~30 in the World rankings last year apparently has to dominate every single race he rides to show significant improvement?

Hysterical projections abound! Again, watch the Puy de Dome stage of last year's Tour, look at his results from the last two years where he largely free-lanced and paid his own dues. Then you may understand where some suggest this was the next year of performance with a better team. The implications of some here are that JV provides extraterrestrial support. They may be organized but Matteo has his own training and nutrition program that, hopefully is now supported by his contract.
He beat Remco...sorry; that is not the only accomplishment in his career although it seems to terrify the Belgian press.

 

[Oldermanish]

I don't agree he was the strongest guy like you say, and I therefore don't see this as an significant improvement. If he had been in a break that got handed 50 seconds due to tactical circumstances in Romandie last year, he would also have won that race. I'm also not sure he would have won PN if stage 7 hadn't been altered, but we'll never know.

The way I see it, he proved last year that he both had talent across different terrain and that he was willing to work hard to reach the highest level possible, and I think those qualities matter more than him now riding for Visma.

I agree wholeheartedly.
That tactical 50 second gap as well and the disaster TT penalized almost all late starters. Those two stages pretty much provided him a bonus advantage. He was fortunate that no real response came from that first breakaway but you have to give him credit for being prepared to go and work hard. Based on last year everyone should know that group would be difficult to retrieve and merited immediate response. The hubris displayed in the press with comments like "it's not over" aside; the top guys didn't make a dent in that lead that JV couldn't tactically counter.

Watching his very intelligent riding from that point on was all him and his JV teammates. He certainly wasn't an unknown from that stage to the finish so the big Ballers should have done their job. Watch the last 40km of the final stage and you can see every kind of rider skill on display. He climbed better than anyone, descended to the point others needed to work to stay on in wet conditions and handled the twisty roads without incident. My point: that is all him. JV didn't magically create those skills.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Congratulations to Remco Evenepoel for winning the stage and to Matteo Jorgenson for winning the overall.

Was a nice race to watch with a lot of in depth dynamics. Important milestone for Rogla and a big psychological push on Remco to again change his racing style to better suit his abilities. Both rider will in my opinion benefit from it, going further in the season.

 

[scribers]

Congratulations to Remco Evenepoel for winning the stage and to Matteo Jorgenson for winning the overall.

Was a nice race to watch with a lot of in depth dynamics. Important milestone for Rogla and a big psychological push on Remco to again change his racing style to better suit his abilities. Both rider will in my opinion benefit from it, going further in the season.

@CyclistAbi prepare to be mobbed by @Froome. We thought you were dead!!

 

[Froome]

@CyclistAbi prepare to be mobbed by @Froome. We thought you were dead!!

Are you jealous @scribers ?

 

[scribers]

That he’s not dead???

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

That he’s not dead???

It would make sense to be jealous of him, if you were.

ARE YOU??!

 

[CyclistAbi]

It was a blow but luckily not a fatal one.